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Old Jervis Johnson Article and Age of Sigmar design philosophy

Menkeroth

A Knight of Blood
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
934
#51
It's was quite a task but I've managed to read the whole thread. What do I have to say? I also understand the anger and frustration of some people, but honestly, looking straight, GW does what it feels it needs to, and nobody of us can be sure he wouldn't do the same if he were in such a position. It's also understandable of GW, because the tournament players mostly don't make much cash for them (in all senses). It's all those people bent on collecting a whole Space marines company or an entire Waaagh! And all those inbetween. It's a hobby after all. I'm also frustrated by the brutal and merciless destruction of the beloved WHFB, but it lives as long as we remember and all the old model ranges are intact. And we will see what becomes of the Age of Sigmar, it's not that innovative in its background (as my friend put it, it's the damned Chaos invading innocent world again!), but it has potential. If they release something that amazing for Tzeentch, I'd buy without a second thought (and this also goes for the High Elves and VC). Future is uncertain but it takes time. Let's be patient and not hasty, anger and hatred lead to the Dark Side!
 

Dragonet

Wight King
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
450
#52
You don't know the power of tbe Dark Side!

You make a fair point Menkeroth, we should (and I dare say by now, do) judge Age Of Sigmar on its own merits. I've only had time to play two games so far; it's fast paced and simple, but I did find it very easy to break; enjoyable overall, but not the same game I love, and yeah let's hope for more developments in the fluff in the coming months.

My anger at GW is not over the change, but its implementation. Nobody outside of our world would understand our emotional, financial and time investment in the hobby, but what if you asked anyone how they would feel about a car company that built what was advertised as an essential and expensive retrofit part for one of their main lines, while intending to scrap the entire line in favour of a new model that's cheaper than the replacement part?

I guarantee that nobody would look on that favourably; that company would lose a lot of respect and trust in the market; a couple of angry customers might even try to sue the company for not acting in good faith.

As for justifying GW's rapacious and borderline legal practices based on their desire to make money and our collective failure to give them enough money to justify supporting the game, I can't agree with that.

They could have run both systems side by side, reducing WHFB to order only if necessary; they could have been honest about ending both WHFB and the Warhammer World and maybe sold one or two End Times volumes instead of five to a grateful rather than panicked and frustrated community, without making the rules changes mandatory, and maybe even followed up with the remaining army books to make up the difference in profit. In my opinion they should have kept WHFB and used it as the battle counterpart to the new AoS gateway skirmish game; with the crossover potential and the introduction of new factions and a progressive storyline from AoS into WHFB they'd have given Fantasy the shot in the arm it so badly needed.

Instead GW cashed in our loyalty: fluff fans, mega collectors and tournament players. I don't know that they favour any single group of customer over another, even if they want to support a different style of play, as long as they shift product. Except new players buy in volume and we don't.

The truth is, no matter how you go about your hobby, there's only so many skeletons, dragons or black knights you'll ever need. I'm an aspiring mega collector among other things and I have about 500 infantry, 50 monsters, flyers and artillery, 30 characters and 40 cavalry, for Undead alone; I'm also collecting Elves, Empire and Orcs. And that's just in Fantasy, I also play Dreadfleet, Space Hulk and 40K. About half of my collection was store bought, as well as two copies of Island Of Blood, End Times Nagash, the Garden Of Morr and of course all the paints and sprays...

On paper I'm apparently one of the hobbyists GW wants to keep pushing to, but the fact is that I've already bought most of my models, and my support didn't prevent the end of WHFB. They want, maybe even need, to sell more kits to new hobbyists, and for that they sold all of us down the river, regardless of how we enjoy the hobby.
 

Menkeroth

A Knight of Blood
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
934
#53
enjoyable overall, but not the same game I love,
Which is quite logical, when all completely changes, is it not?
and yeah let's hope for more developments in the fluff in the coming months.
The fluff seams to concentrate on Chaos invading other realms, but yeah, the Quest for Ghal Maraz and Nurgle against the Sylvaneth can be interesting.
My anger at GW is not over the change, but its implementation.
I get your point. Aye, I feel it too - the death of the world known universe which existed since 76... It's definitely not what people might have expected...
As for justifying GW's rapacious and borderline legal practices based on their desire to make money and our collective failure to give them enough money to justify supporting the game, I can't agree with that.
I'm not justifying them, but I understand somewhat their considerations and actions. Apparently all our efforts were not enough to make WHFB be profitable enough. It's a business company with lots of shareholders, I don't think all the designers and sculptors wanted to see WH dead but they are not that free in their wishes, sadly.
They could have run both systems side by side, reducing WHFB to order only if necessary
They certainly could and it would be quite a variant. But it's a tendency after all - with LotR was it also so, practically.
The truth is, no matter how you go about your hobby, there's only so many skeletons, dragons or black knights you'll ever need. I'm an aspiring mega collector among other things and I have about 500 infantry, 50 monsters, flyers and artillery, 30 characters and 40 cavalry, for Undead alone; I'm also collecting Elves, Empire and Orcs. And that's just in Fantasy, I also play Dreadfleet, Space Hulk and 40K. About half of my collection was store bought, as well as two copies of Island Of Blood, End Times Nagash, the Garden Of Morr and of course all the paints and sprays...
And that's great, it's what our hobby consists of. But we do it for ourselves and the old model ranges are still intact, so don't dwell on that too heavily. GW could have done the other way and maybe it should have, but it was planned certainly long before. If all the armies in Age of Sigmar remain as they are, it can save the day.
On paper I'm apparently one of the hobbyists GW wants to keep pushing to, but the fact is that I've already bought most of my models, and my support didn't prevent the end of WHFB. They want, maybe even need, to sell more kits to new hobbyists, and for that they sold all of us down the river, regardless of how we enjoy the hobby.
Aye, sad but true. But we don't owe them our enjoyment. WH is the path to aspire to the ultimate glory, GW deeds are nothing but just speed bumps on that road.
 

Dragonet

Wight King
Joined
Feb 3, 2015
Messages
450
#54
I do see where you're coming from Menkeroth, and I agree. My mates play AoS and 8th as well as other games, primarily Infinity and Dropzone; I'm still getting tons of enjoyment out of 8th in terms of modelling, collecting and playing; and I'm looking forward to seeing some cool Undead releases in the future to either convert up or to add to my collection directly; Morghasts haven't made the cut yet but there's plenty of time!

For my part I can't agree that their business practices were necessary reactions to market forces; to me it seems they ignored all the levers and dials and just pushed the Big Red Button by throwing our game on the skip. I don't believe they conducted market research; I understand they gave up on interacting with the community because they got too much abuse for their previous practices; I'm convinced they just looked at sales and decided to go with something new from the designers, packaged and priced to bleed as much money from the existing franchise (End Times) before dumping it and pushing a new product onto a new market.

You are right, we can and do enjoy this hobby independantly of the businesses that create the games, but it leaves a foul taste in the mouth, to think that GW have enjoyed so much of my custom through their duplicitous practices, rather than really great firms like Hawk and Corvus Belli. But again I do concede, these are speed bumps and not road blocks! Unlike some of the excellent gamers we've lost in this terribly handled transition, I will keep and enjoy my collection and relive my awesome early days in the hobby, back in the 90s with the end of season sales, the rich diversity of specialist games and the rock/metal soundtrack to many evenings of wargaming!
 

Menkeroth

A Knight of Blood
Joined
Nov 11, 2013
Messages
934
#55
I do see where you're coming from Menkeroth, and I agree. My mates play AoS and 8th as well as other games, primarily Infinity and Dropzone; I'm still getting tons of enjoyment out of 8th in terms of modelling, collecting and playing; and I'm looking forward to seeing some cool Undead releases in the future to either convert up or to add to my collection directly; Morghasts haven't made the cut yet but there's plenty of time!
Exactly! It's what we can do and it works always. All these changes must make us not to suffer but seek the other way around!
For my part I can't agree that their business practices were necessary reactions to market forces; to me it seems they ignored all the levers and dials and just pushed the Big Red Button by throwing our game on the skip.
Aye, and I can't know it for sure either. Maybe they just got tired of all that pushing, you know. It does not justify them, and the End Times do seem somewhat messy and hasty for me. It's strange it took 5 books to end it all - it's not much, they could do books for all the armies, though these books were pretty awesome.
You are right, we can and do enjoy this hobby independantly of the businesses that create the games, but it leaves a foul taste in the mouth, to think that GW have enjoyed so much of my custom through their duplicitous practices, rather than really great firms like Hawk and Corvus Belli. But again I do concede, these are speed bumps and not road blocks! Unlike some of the excellent gamers we've lost in this terribly handled transition, I will keep and enjoy my collection and relive my awesome early days in the hobby, back in the 90s with the end of season sales, the rich diversity of specialist games and the rock/metal soundtrack to many evenings of wargaming!
I totally agree with you, that's what we must do if we truly love WH and we do. Age of Sigmar is mostly our beloved universe after all - yes, they changed some names, but the minis and Chaos are still the same.
 
Joined
Oct 2, 2014
Messages
101
#56
I almost hate to say it, but I almost wish they had taken only the token charactors, sigmar, nagash etc. only if need be, and just dropped the rest. Just ended it. Instead we have a new game that's sorta like the old one. Kinda like when they have dropped a mega codex change on us. It would have been the same blow up but if they had advertised it AS the true end times, no more coming end of this party, it would have been easier. Then came along well in advance with info sneaks of the NEW game coming. Really pre-sale it and let us know, hey there will be undead, orcs, Knights, rat men etc. in the new game. I think the blow up would have been totally differnt. One of the things I'm hoping GW and there new style takes to heart is to give us a better clue next time. Yeah, I know they kinda did,( I was one of those who had a feeling this was going to happen) but like many said, " how many end times, or chaos taking over the world games have we already done? It's time for 9th!!" If they had pre sold the whole thing with a big blow out thing, and then what they did for AOS, it would have been nice.
 
Joined
Aug 15, 2015
Messages
39
#58
I have been fan a GW fiction for ages but have never had the time to get into the game. Since AOS though a mate and I are giving it a go. The lack of points makes it easy to jump in and we don't have to worry about loads of core units. The lack of balance is however most appealing to me because it mirrors actual military tactics (ie when attacking you want a 3:1 ratio), as well as real life (I. E. it's not fair and balanced but you adapt and over come).

N.b. I agree comp rules would be good for those who want them, but have AOS as core rules excites me. I am sorry if this upsets people that was not my intention.
 
Joined
Nov 3, 2014
Messages
34
#60
@VonRaetia: A sensible and balanced post which doesn't attack anyone in any way and just conveys how you and a mate perceives a game to be in a rational manner. You shouldn't have to beg your pardon in advance when expressing a sensible and non-aggressive thing like that. Those who would get upset by it would simply have to grow a thicker skin.
 
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