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Our infantry are *and were always* good in combat, and perhaps we can make them broken? (again)

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Count Darvaleth said:
Dammit! Ok, here's what happened...grrr....

My opponent cast some Tzeentch spell (Pandemonium I think) that makes me unable to use my characters leadership. I said "umm, ok, I'm Undead. I'll let it go." He FAILED to mention it made me miscast on any double until NEXT TURN when I tried to cast something, which ended in a double 1 miscast and wiped out almost all of my GG unit. On to the worse stuff:

I managed to cast the Lore of Beasts spell giving +3S and +3A on my Lord. He absolutely butchered the Chaos Warriors, with 8 Red Fury attacks to spare. The enemy's Lord was in a challenge with my GG Champion (he he) and I wondered if he could be wounded by my Lord? But anyway, I didn't say it did. My opponent (who had so far run down and killed an entire unit of 20 skellies and a Necromancer in one turn, and got his Chaos Giant into the flank of my army, and managed to wear down my GG to almost nothing) promptly gave up, said I was cheating, and left the table.

Raaaaaarrrgh!!!!! So what?! Ten attacks because of a crapload of investment!!! Gah! The single unit in my army capable of dealing some mass damage and he couldn't take it.. Grrr. :swear:
I'm gonna have to go with "your opponent was a loser" :)
 
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So he plays Daemons too? That spell is from the Warriors of Chaos book.

Anyway, don't let this player solidify your ideas about Daemon players.

Most of them are good to play against, and the problem with the Daemon list isn't that things are undefeatably good, or too cheap, it's that they work every time and in every combination.

No matter what units a Daemon player takes, even if they pick the army entirely at random, with a little practice they'll do as well as any other Daemon player, and better than any other random list, but not better than carefully chosen lists from other books.

All their core infantry types suck unless led by their heralds. Take out the heralds, and the units are worse than ours. Don't take out the heralds, and we take a pasting unless we get the right spells off.

They're also the only other army with access to a forbidden lore type ability on heroes, their Tzeentch Heralds, but they don't have the improved casting stuff like the power scroll or power dice, so they can't get the large template purple sun to work often, just the small one.

Very common is a big block of Horrors of Tzeentch. That's a level 4 with a few preset decent spells, mostly used for dispelling.

Their best unit in 7th was the Flesh Hound. In units of 6 or 7, these 2 wound MR3 war beasts still dish out a lot of damage.

Their best heros and lords are Khorne. Very difficult to deal with Bloodthirsters or Heralds on Juggernauts. Especially if they're almost impossible to kill and reroll to hit and to wound with lots of high strength attacks.

They used to rely on said juggernauts and bloodthirsters too much, and now that combat lords and heroes aren't doing so well for any of us, they might be having a difficult time adjusting. Also, if they have said characters, then, as mentioned above, their infantry blocks might not have them and so will be vulnerable.
 
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Jugglingfool said:
A Daemon player claiming that we are broken. Even in 7th edition that would lead to me never playing them again. Heck what am I saying I never want to play a Daemon player again anyway. Haven't played them in this edition but they are just not fun to play against.
Ah, sorry about my confusion above, it was Jugglingfool who misunderstood and thought this was a Daemon player.

I instead direct my above comments to him.
 

Count Darvaleth

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Ha, no it wasn't a Daemon player, it was WoC. But anyway, I'm going to put that game onto my win pile. *Cough* xD

That gives me an effective KD ratio of 1:4 , but one of the losses was a big multiplayer game where everyone had 1000pts except me... I could only field 700, so my teammate took 1300, and effectively declared himself general, and just told me to keep raising zombies in my magic phase. I told him it wouldn't work, told him they were awful; he didn't listen. Meh.
 

Belly

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Then you're just doing it wrong dude. Grave Guard fighting in 2 or even 3 ranks will kill the sh*t out of pretty much anything. Ghouls fighting in a horde are similarly horrific. Helm of Commandment, Drakenhoff Banner and magic all make them even better. Take bigger and better units. Don't rely on magic.
What he said :thumbsup:
 

Count Darvaleth

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Belly said:
What he said :thumbsup:
Read what I just said? I was beating the crap out of him with my Lord, my GG only half-died because of a miscast as a cause of a spell he didn't tell me the full effects of, and he quit because he thought I was over-powered. Tell me where, exactly, I did anything wrong? Perhaps I should've played easier so he kept playing?
 
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Count Darvaleth said:
Hammerthorn said:
That Ghoul unit is nuts hard, but heck, nothing is invincible.

Unlucky dude, wish it had gone better for you.
It wasn't even a Ghoul unit. It was just my Vampire Lord. One single model. And he quit.
Then he is a really, really bad loser.
 

Count Darvaleth

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You're telling me? Sheesh it's taken him three walkover games to be enticed into actually wanting to play. I get him a chair and everything, put his army on MY movement trays, even tell him what I would do if the sides were swapped round in-game... I work like a slave and it's just not at all rewarding. But never mind, soon my army will be big enough (and non-proxied!) for me to head of to GW and start collecting some corpses!

My 2000pts army list is going to try and squeeze in:

-Combat Lord
-Beasts Thrall
-WK Drakenhof BSB
-Either a couple of Necromancers or another Vampire-Lore FL Thrall
-2 units of 20 skellies, one with spears and one with swords 'n' boards
-Corpse Cart

Now the fun part:

-30/35 Ghouls *Horde*
-30/35 GG *Horde* with GW
-Possibly a Varghulf


The solid base of skellies on the flanks, and the GG probably in the centre. The Ghouls will flit about where needed, with the super-combat Lord and the Beasts Thrall. The plan is for the Beasts thrall to buff the Ghouls and the Lord. The BSB will go in the GG, who will hopefully also be buffed. (I plan to have the two hordes close-ish) The CC sits just behind my line, moving up only if necessary, perhaps with Balefire? And the Varghulf flits about the place, doing whatever he wants, killing whatever, usually sneaky little fast cav or war-machines.

What do you think? I really should write up a list but I'm laaazy...
 

Tal Rasha

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I'd have to agree with the OP on certain points. VC took a big hit in 8th due to the way charges don't allow first strike. With our low Initiative scores and little to no armor, low to average toughness, and with supporting attacks, our units are much worse than before. In 7th a 20 man unit of zombies was a nice tar pit to hold people up for a turn or two, and with magic, they'd last even longer. In 8th, they die very often in the first turn. Further, everyone is taking big blocks these days so we no longer outnumber them. The answer to big blocks of troops is war machines, something we lack.

It's not the end of the world, and in one aspect, i'm glad we aren't the most powerful army in the game anymore. Now maybe the complaining will end. But if you aren't happy being middle tier I'd play hte Dark Elves. They remain a top tier army.
 
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I am gonna say you should invest in some more wight kings in my VC's I have a hero in every squad. I have one really big magic lord then a wight king in every skelly or GG unit( i give them all swords of more attacks :tongue:) and a necromancer with vanhel's and invocation. (and I have been winning against dark elves, high elves choas deamons and Ogres.)xD

also a black coach is also a solid investment in this edition and can be quite nasty because it can get allot of its abilities on turn one or two.

also a corpse cart is also a very good investment and against some armies (dark elves) its a must. (my 40 man unit of Ghouls supported by a necro and a corpse cart ripped apart a full horde of 10 of the 18 strong unit of ogres. then a blood knight flank charge recked them.)

So don't get frustrated :swear: we are still very good just must be played differently my army may be smaller but it is oh so deadly. :suck:
and tactics are needed allot more in this edition.
 
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Tal Rasha said:
It's not the end of the world, and in one aspect, i'm glad we aren't the most powerful army in the game anymore. Now maybe the complaining will end. But if you aren't happy being middle tier I'd play hte Dark Elves. They remain a top tier army.
Is there an up to date 'Tier list' for Armies under 8th? Even a loose one? I was curious where my other armies and others in my local stores rank up. I'm really outta the loop when it comes to 8th.
 
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Well, basically 8th edition made everything better.

Dark Elves get more of everything than the other elite armies for their points, and so of the top tier from 7th, Dark Elves, who were the best of the best, just got bestererer.

We don't know yet whether any of the middle and bottom tiers, that also got better, got as good as Dark Elves, but I doubt it.

Many of the cheaper armies, Orcs and Goblins for example, may well have gotten better so much that they could be on par with 7ths 2nd best army; Daemons, driving the small distance between Dark Elves and the rest of the pack to appear much greater than it actually is.

I expect Skaven and High Elves both to do very well indeed. In my opinion, they replace Daemons to join Dark Elves in 8th edition's top tier.

Now, all that will be changed by Tournament Organisers redesigning and rediscovering "hard comp". In a hard comped 7th edition environment, all armies were brought to roughly the same level by the introduction of additional rules when choosing your army.
In comped 7th environments, Orcs and Goblins and Beastmen still rarely stood a chance until things got to the ETC level, where the best players in the world are combined with the best comp system in the world. Likewise any Chaos player who chooses not to have a Sorcerer Lord of Tzeentch had a very difficult game to play.
Dark Elves were the most difficult army to "comp", and so often Dark Elf players had to check carefully to see whether their army was legal for each event, but they could never quite be stopped.
Dark Elves and Daemons were aimed to be limited, balanced closer to the rest of the armies, but were still a very good choice for many players. 8th appears to have limited Daemons almost like comp did, but has left Dark Elves stronger than ever.
Under Comp in 7th, Lizardmen though often found themselves the new top dogs under many comp systems, squirming past various obstacles introduced by the comp. I expect that, once the skinks have been repurposed and the saurus are ready, the Lizards will continue to do very well indeed in 8th.

We have little idea yet what needs to be comped in 8th, so for the next year or 2 I don't expect to see much or any of it.
 
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But lets say no army is comped, you're saying Daemons, Dark Elves, High Elves, Skaven and Orcs & Goblins seem top at the moment?

I'm just curious cause I don't know of any limiting rules in the local competitions. Was just wondering where my Vampires stood in comparison to the other armies. I hear Ogres seem to kick major ass these days too.

I always thought under 7th it was 1) Daemons 2) Vampires 3) Dark Elves though? I never heard of Dark Elves being above the Daemons. Occasionally above Vampires though.
 
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The Dark Elves also got strongly improved since the beginning of the 6th edition (they were pretty crappy by then), also thanks to the lobbying of Druchii.net. We in this community should do the same for our army!! :cool:
 
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At the top end of players, people who know what they're doing, Dark Elves were and are the best. Daemons were a close second. At every other level, Daemons were the best.

Until the release of Lizardmen and Skaven, Vampires were up there too, but those 2 armies were at our level, but not at the level of the other 2, so the top tier became Dark Elves and Daemons alone.

I wasn't saying that Orcs are now top tier, though they may be. I was saying they're no longer by any means one of the worst, which they were.

I am also saying that I'm not sure Daemons are top tier anymore at all. They may have joined Vampires in falling into the middle.

Top
Dark Elves and High Elves certainly, maybe Skaven and Daemons or Lizardmen

Middle and Bottom
Everyone else, yet to be sorted out who is now at the bottom

Tomb Kings and Beastmen are bound to be near the bottom. Tomb Kings will get a new book soon. Beastmen are doomed.
 
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Ah I see. That helps somewhat. So those are the 5 to look-out for.

What the heck killed Beastmen so badly? I read in another thread they're awesome due to mobility now? I take it this isn't true?
 

Ophidicus

Vampire Count
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Don't take everything you read on a forum as objective fact. True, Beastmen have a lot of downsides, virtually no armour and severely limited ranged attacks, but they have strengths too, which shouldn't be underestimated. They certainly aren't doomed, especially wth the new Beast Lore which gets a bonus to cast on all units (a Minotaur Character under Savage Beast of Horros will cut a massive hole in virtually any unit in the game), their Ambush tactics and, as you say, the removal of movement penalties for terrain. Beastmen need to surround their enemies but have many effective ways to do so, and no shortage of can-openers if needed. If you're playing as Vampires, be careful, Beastmen can & will flank you & you need ways to get rid of them before they nullify your CR bonuses then smash you with nasty monsters, of which they have no shortage.

In short, nothing is as simple as 'highest on the list wins', it might take more acumen to win with, say, Beastmen, but it makes the game as a whole more enjoyable in my book. That said, I'm not a tournament player (& have never actually played a game with my few beastmen) but them's me views.
 
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I don't know about the current tiers of the armies, the thing I know is that my next army is going to be Beastmen xD I have already one battalion and I will exchange another one with an old orcs battalion. So, the core selections of my Herd are gathered slowly :perv:

I am really looking forward gathering a 2500 points force to start play!
 
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Ophidicus said:
Don't take everything you read on a forum as objective fact. True, Beastmen have a lot of downsides, virtually no armour and severely limited ranged attacks, but they have strengths too, which shouldn't be underestimated. They certainly aren't doomed, especially wth the new Beast Lore which gets a bonus to cast on all units (a Minotaur Character under Savage Beast of Horros will cut a massive hole in virtually any unit in the game), their Ambush tactics and, as you say, the removal of movement penalties for terrain. Beastmen need to surround their enemies but have many effective ways to do so, and no shortage of can-openers if needed. If you're playing as Vampires, be careful, Beastmen can & will flank you & you need ways to get rid of them before they nullify your CR bonuses then smash you with nasty monsters, of which they have no shortage.

In short, nothing is as simple as 'highest on the list wins', it might take more acumen to win with, say, Beastmen, but it makes the game as a whole more enjoyable in my book. That said, I'm not a tournament player (& have never actually played a game with my few beastmen) but them's me views.
Yeah, I understand that it's more down to the general than the army, I was just curious as to where armies stood. I've heard a lot of Wood Elf players moaning for example, and it seems like they really struggle to do anything.

And @Witchking1980: The beastmen models are beautiful. I've always wanted to get a Mordheim warband of 'em up just so I can paint a few of the metal general models.
 

Count Darvaleth

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Wiggins said:
I am also saying that I'm not sure Daemons are top tier anymore at all. They may have joined Vampires in falling into the middle.
Don't be silly! The whole Games Workshop community would fall apart without the MP40 of WHFB (Daemons) being just that.
 
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Ophidicus said:
Don't take everything you read on a forum as objective fact. True, Beastmen have a lot of downsides, virtually no armour and severely limited ranged attacks, but they have strengths too, which shouldn't be underestimated. They certainly aren't doomed, especially wth the new Beast Lore which gets a bonus to cast on all units (a Minotaur Character under Savage Beast of Horros will cut a massive hole in virtually any unit in the game), their Ambush tactics and, as you say, the removal of movement penalties for terrain. Beastmen need to surround their enemies but have many effective ways to do so, and no shortage of can-openers if needed. If you're playing as Vampires, be careful, Beastmen can & will flank you & you need ways to get rid of them before they nullify your CR bonuses then smash you with nasty monsters, of which they have no shortage.

In short, nothing is as simple as 'highest on the list wins', it might take more acumen to win with, say, Beastmen, but it makes the game as a whole more enjoyable in my book. That said, I'm not a tournament player (& have never actually played a game with my few beastmen) but them's me views.
Absolutely. I know that I generalise a lot, and certainly I expect that at some point in the next 4 years I will be defeated by a Beastman player every once in a while. I play a lot of warhammer against a wide variety of opponents. But I don't expect it to happen often if I don't throw down some sort of gauntlet for the purpose.

Suffice it to say, Beastmen will be a very challenging army, and not for the faint hearted or the easily depressed.
 
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Hey all

i am a High elf player and here is what i can tell you about your core units..

Zombis sucks:thumbsdown:
Skellies sucks:thumbsdown:
but
Ghouls just kills my spearmen
The T4 is by much better than +5 armour save in HTH and vs shotting
The poison helps alot when you have a unit of 30 hitting
They have 2 attacks wich is just as good as spears too the front but better if you gett hit in the flank....
Gett a vampire with ghoulkin and they can pre-game march

And gett 30 Grave Guards with great weapon and just smile :devil2:

VC are nasty in 8th ed more than ever

So have fun
Rip.dk
 

Bravo_10

Dark Lord of Eternal Sorrow
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I would agree completely with rip.dk about out infantry. However, with the new magic rules it seems like combat lords are much more viable. A combat lord can tear through an infantry unit almost single handedly, and he's already a level 2 wizard (a nice +2 to those casting rolls). And with necromancers now able to roll practically as many dice as they want, we don't really have to worry about our lord's lack of magic skills.

And rip.dk, zombies aren't COMPLETELY useless. It's always nice to summon up some zombies, IoN them to a high enough unit strength, and then VHDM them into somebody's flank or rear. It's especially useful against guys like Skaven, who are really rather useless without that rank bonus. xD
 
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yes

summon a unit of zombies behinde the your foul is ok but buying them with the game points in not something i will do....

and make sure if you have a hth lord with you, that the enemy dont have sivejir´s hex scroll:lol:
 
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