Phoenix Guard Bus

[Woolly.Mammoth]

I have read some good topics on dealing with the HE. They very often tend to go with the Lions+BotWD bus + phoenix guard hammer, and like to bring nasty death to purp sun everything.

The strat for this is to go Great Weapon + OTS blender supported by nightshoud WK. This will hack the lions apart and even the PG.

But what if they dont go for the lions and utilize the PG as their bus supported by High Magic? This is the real trouble I have.

This topic touched on it a bit but doesn't really go over the full nightmare of this build.
https://www.vampirecounts.net/threads/phoenix-guard-issue.25473/

Supported by a high mage, 4++ quickly turns to 3++ or 2++, and there's no way around this. Even 3++ is going to be next to impossible to overcome with our most powerful combat units.

Worse; high magic has arcane unforging. Your opponent just needs to get this off once to dismantle your lord. You can rely on a scroll once but all too often its nearly impossible to prevent one spell from going off.

The only thing I can think of is to tie the PG down with CH and then hit them hard in the flank. Hopefully my VL has managed to keep all his items by that point.

 

[Grok]

One thing, high magic can only take their ward save down to a 3+, and where is the other 3+ coming from? At best the PG have 5+/3+ against non-magical. High magic does make them scary, but not because of arcane unforging, but because of walk between worlds, makes the PG harder to control.

I would deal with them in one of two ways.

Preferred method, chaff up, kill everything else. They are infantry so they can't charge over dire wolves. If your opponent mis-deploys their characters and the PG have no magical attacks a spirit host in the flank. As infantry you have 1-2 turns without them being able to charge, if you can mitigate them for an additional 1-2 turns with chaff hopefully you have cleaned the rest of the army off the board. A zombie block could be ideal here, as a few lucky kills from zombies won't be unheard of, and it should take them a few combat round to grind through 50+ zombies (after all most PG will be 5 wide and lacking the ability to slay that many in one round).

Second less reliable method. Hang back and chaff up. But while doing this try to focus fire on the unit. They are still only T3 elves, so Ruby Ring, Gaze of Nagash, and screams can work well here. Even dropping them down 5 models can be a big deal to their stability. Also, consider putting zombies or a core unit into combat. Yes they will get ground down, but every PG killed is one less to worry about when you sweep through the unit. They are still only T3 S4, ghouls may be golden here.

When in combat be sure to allocate hits to characters where appropriate to continue to weaken and whittle.

A few turns of this and you combo charge and hopefully win. Ideally, your combat units would be cleaning off the High Elf support units while this goes on.

The biggest problem with both these strategies is that depending what victory system you are playing under you will only be able to get a minor win, which in many ways is worse then a lose. (One of the reasons I have mixed feelings about the 20-0 system).

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

1) What you definitely do NOT want to do is have a foot vampire bus fighting phoenix guard. All those S4 ASF attacks will shred skeletons, and their 3++ wards will make it difficult for your VL to make those wounds back. That's really not a good place for a VL to be. With a BK bus I would be less concerned.

2) White Lions are a similar thing, but because they're stubborn so you have to kill them to the man to get rid of them. Also not a good place for your expensive hammers to be, especially since they're outputting S6 attacks back against him.



If you do fight an army with both of these threats, it's going to be very important to pick your matchups well. You want zombies or skeletons fighting those white lions and holding them up for a while. Crypt horrors or a BK bus should be fighting the phoenix guard, both of whom should give them trouble as they're only S4. But either way be aware that it's going to take several turns, so you need to be safe against potential countercharges. Throwing a frost phoenix or silverhelm bus into the mix in either case is going to tip the scales against you pretty quick. Chaff is going to be important here, as is raise dead.

Note that I'm also quite a big fan of casting Curse of Years against units like these. You can slip it through early on when you don't really have much else to cast, and people tend to just let it go rather than bother throwing dice at it. Once it amps up to wounding on 4s or 3s they'll be failing ward saves here or there and chipping wounds off the unit. By the time they realize it should probably be dispelled you're into crucial magic phases where those dice are really better spent elsewhere.

 

[owain_b]

I actually think this may be one of those times the corpse cart can be useful. Of all the high elf special units I fear Phoenix guard the least, their damage output is actually pretty poor. Str 4 is mediocre, I play lizardmen too and I once charged a old blood on cold one on his own into Phoenix guard horde with 3 characters worth about 1500 pts and held them up for the rest of the game. His horde actually scored 0 victory points while only holding up about 250 points of old blood while the rest of my army cleared up. Now that doesn't really help vc because of crumble, but I would just chuck a unit of 50+ zombies in and corpse cart to take away asf rerolls and Phoenix guard just don't have the damage output to get through that. Another way could be 18 crypt horrors horde with mortis engines for the 4+ regen, that would take care of Phoenix guard but I'd prob go for the zombies, more reliable and less points needed. Make the rest of you army quick and manoeuvrable to mop up the rest asap

 

[The Sun King]

Final Transmutation is a good option when fighting Phoenix Guards.

 

[Demian]

Caradryan is a "direct" counter to VC and/or Nurgle stuff, but I've seen it being used with White Lions better than with Phoenix guard (ASF Caradryan counters regen before the Lions get to strike), but other than that Regen and even The Reliquary's hits takes care of our defensive problem.

That list without the really scary stuff like... Teclis, or End Times High Magic is just not enough to counter a chaff-based army like VC.

Maybe Elven Hosts (but that would imply using End Times magic) could pose a threat here, if the Phoenix Guard is comboed with Reaper Bolt Throwers or Waywatchers.

 

[Asmodeus]

Buffing/Debuffing is efficient against any deathstar.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

chaffing for points denial, whittling away slowly is our only option? 3++ on an infantry unit is silly. Utilizing Korhil makes PG stubborn as well, but as stated we should target chars. Nice that they capped 3++, but the always-taken BotWD will push it to 2++ against magic missiles, final trans, curse of years. Corpse Cart and debuffs are further ways to improve how you fare against them, but still, there's no reliable way to take them out, only improve how hard they hit you.

Id say best bet is probably VHDM zombies with a CC, that will definitely hold them and cause some decent wounds.

When you have lions with BotWD, phoenix guard with a high mage + Korhil, plenty of chaff, 4 ballista and a frost phoenix, its gets silly. HE really turn the game on its face when all of their options are utilized.

We can chaff them up, get in good combats and replenish our losses, but even so its hard to pull out anything other than a minor victory against this list.

 

[Demian]

Actually, Final Transmutation is not entirely bad to deal with any kind of non-Monstruous horde, since it doesn't allow saves of any kind and every model must roll for it, inflicting considerable losses all in all.

Also, Phoenix Guard only get 3+ whenever a Wizard inside that unit successfully casts High Magic, but the mage itself will only gain a 6++ ward, increasing with every cast. Since mages are squishy, maybe you can direct 4-6 attacks at it with zombies and just munch that char down, regardless of other casualties.

As for Lore of Vampires / Undeath goes, taking out the ballistae is relatively easy with a magic missile, like Gaze of Nagash. Summoning chaff is really easy as well, but the problem is dealing with both PG and WL while at full capacity. Crypt Horrors seem like the best unit to deal with both units, given their High T and stomps. Another option is Varghulf, although only against PG, and with Korhil engaged.

You could also use the Necrolith Colossus / Necrosphinx / Warsphinx to deal with PG and WL respectively, but you must be certain that they will need a lot of support as well, that being BSB to keep them from crumbling at the wrong time, plus any Morghasts you can add to further decrease their instability:

Warsphinx has a breath weapon, very useful, besides T8 to decrease the amount of wounds that even WL will cause. Those are all non-magical attacks. They are Monsters, so they can (now) march as Undead Legions.

Necrolith Colossus are T6, ideal to send against Phoenix Guard, and the Desert Bow, albeit unreliable, can manage to wound a Phoenix, or maybe even a Ballistae (T7 for both High and Dark Elf profiles).

A Necrosphinx can sistematically remove characters, provided it lasts enough to strike with the Decapitating Strike. Same as above, with T8, bolt throwers should not be an issue.

Our Nehekaran cousins have advantage over these guys with their variety of constructs. You may want to add a nearby Necrotect to further improve their saves, plus summoning a Mortis Engine to boost their regen saves, if needed.

 

[Seneschal]

Eternally Undying, Phoenix Guard never take BotWD, as a 4+ with a High mage is enough to protect them. The mage will be in teh second rank as High Elf bus units will bring 4-5 characters, one of which being a Sea Helm BSB who allows them to reform before getting charged (just to cover all the bases). They use Razor Banner instead as PG's have a hard time generating combat res.

Also, Lions don't need Korhil as they already have stubborn.

I feel that chaffing a World Dragon unit is our best option although Final Transmutation does need to be mentioned, indeed, Demian and Sun. Its not a popular choice for us but metal is a game winning lore due to that spell and searing doom as well.

 

[Banat]

Debuff against world dragon. Doom and Darkness and scream the f*ck out of them.

 

[Seneschal]

Debuffing their strength can be helpful but Screams are magical

 

[Banat]

Got my spells mixed up then... which ones the one that debuffs leadership? I thought banshee and tbat screams counted as shooting? They can't take world dragon saves against them.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Got my spells mixed up then... which ones the one that debuffs leadership? I thought banshee and tbat screams counted as shooting? They can't take world dragon saves against them.

they take banner saves vs anything magical trying to hurt them, screams are shooting but they are magical shooting, so the banner applies.

Edit: Also what @Adam_Barrow said below me. It doesn't matter in this instance, but for any where it matters screams are not shooting.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Nowhere does it say screams are shooting. consensus at the time of release was consider them special attacks that happen in the Shooting Phase.

 

[Demian]

Ld debuff can serve another way:

Fear / Terror tests! And last, but not least, managing to get a marginal win with a clever charge can break the whole unit affected by Doom & Darkness / Iceshard Blizzard / Aura of Dark Majesty / Mortarch of Shadow effects.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

Played a new game, managed a draw. Held up the PG bus with 8 CH. I forgot to attack chars so it could have went better. My blender lord was doing fairly poorly to win combats against ASF elves who strike back in droves, took me about 2 rounds to take out even lowly spearmen. By the time I killed two units of spearmen, the 8CH were obliterated.

HE are a good example of why Tgeist is overrated. Sure a WoC player will tell you its the most broken unit in the game, having had their Warriors, Knights, Skullcrushers and Demon Princes heads explode every time a Tghest looks in their direction .. but against many matchups there's simply nothing worth screaming at, and you would have to scream unhindered for 5 straight turns just to earn his points back.

Metal is a great way to blow up your HE friend, but no VC shows up with metal in an all comers list. Daemon players always have it ready, but what can VC do to get one up on HE in an all-comers list? Or do we just have to struggle out a draw when HE comes to the table?

 

[Demian]

I'm sorry to read that D:

I find adding Nightshroud to allow VL's re-rolls is a must against any elves, and the key to beating them is taking advantage of how pricey are their models vs how cheap are ours!

Yep, Terrorgheists aren't "best in slot" for our rares they are just the ones with less disadvantages and puts pressure on the table against the otherwise unbeatable stuff (lone characters / monsters). Against units, you'd have to play differently, screaming into combats to gain a small marginal edge, harassing from the back, etc.

Maybe... Mortis Engines would fare better, or a Varghulf. I've had success using the chubby vamp against HE before.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

I had a nightshroud WK guarding a GW blender lord in skelles. I was excited to mow down units.

I charged a unit of 25 lowly spearmen. 3 of them have ASL now .. but the other 22 have ASF and that easily means 20 hits at 3+ re-rolls. That's about 10 wounds probably 8-9 after saves.

Without VDM my VL did 4 wounds after misses and parries took their toll, and the 8 skeleton attacks and even 3 WK attacks are maybe 1-2 more wounds. Since they have ranks and a banner the combat result doesn't do much and the result is locked in combat having killed only 6 spearmen. Since the VL and WK are providing the kills while they are losing attacks, I'm likely to win the second round. Little silly that my 550 point hammer unit takes two rounds to beat their 255 point stock core unit.

Yeah there's tactics involved, but I got ballistas firing at me a frost phoenix flying around and two units of super warded hammers shooting out spells like unforging and fiery convocation. I can try to redirect but then they have reavers and eagles redirecting me at the same time. Really their only weakness is mass S3 which is really no issue against the shambling dead. All i'm trying to do is take my biggest hammer to their most basic core unit and I cant even get a good result there.

 

[Demian]

Oh! I didn't know you didn't have ASF with the VL as well =(

Saddly, Arcane Unforging usually messes up our magical weapons and so, but in the case of elves, maybe GW was a bit of overkill since the only thing you're going to need it against is the Frost Phoenix, and there are other things that can take him down easier.

Yep, those spearmen should have gone down on the first round, since VDM is not reliable in this 8th ed magic.

 

[HugoMac]

IMHO the key is debuffs + static combat resolution. Doing damage to them is not impossible, but so difficult that is NOT the way to victory against this unit.

For the debuffs, anyone of death and/or shadow (soulblight, DOOM AND DARKNESS, withering, even melkoth´s), both lores we have easy acces to, will do a great job.

For the SCR, a big unit of skeletons with FCG, and a couple (or three) of damage-negator characters, should push the PG out.
For example: classic blender (additional hand weapon, heavy armor, nightshroud, ToP, OTS, QB, RF) + tough wight king (enchanted shield, 5+ ward, potion of speed to negate their re-rolls) + cairn wraith (if there are characters with magic weapons, try deploy him in a position that when when you charge/receive the charge they aren´t in contact base to base); and you should avoid almost any damage thay can make, while you still make something to win.


In resume: think of "push" the unit back, not "kill it".

 

[The Sun King]

I never understood why anyone would want to go toe to toe with any deathstar.

It is far more effective to redirect, chaff and shoot it.

 

[Hitsugaya Toushiro]

morghast could help

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I never understood why anyone would want to go toe to toe with any deathstar.

It is far more effective to redirect, chaff and shoot it.

Because they want to get the full 20 points.

 

[The Sun King]

It will cost them the win though.