Plausibility of a Ghoul army with new book?

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Shadow14_8

Ghoul
Aug 24, 2009
117
Zombies
64
Just curious has anyone tried using a ghoul army with the new book and success rate. I have wanted to do this for awhile and with the new ghoulking I thought it would be cool. losing Ghoulkin (i think thats what it was called) hurts but still plausible?
 
Most of what I've heard on the forums makes the Ghouls seem like they got a pretty big hit with the new book (Increased cost + a number of special abilities taken away), and they aren't terribly worth it as the core of your force. They cost so much more than others, and have plenty of vulnerabilities (No save for one) that they just really don't make up for what the other units can have in quantities.

It might be fun, and pretty awesome looking, but I doubt it would be terribly competitive. Not that I know anything about this game.
 
I think a single unit of these guys is still very competitive. Yes they've lost a lot but they still provide something very useful. Given you have to spend points in core whether you like it or not, spending points on these guys isn't a huge loss. Especially at 2.5k or more, when you can afford a unit of zombies and some dogs as well.

That being said, I think VC need tar pits and redirectors. So I wouldn't completely fill your core with them. I haven't tried it though.
 
Shadow14_8 said:
Just curious has anyone tried using a ghoul army with the new book and success rate. I have wanted to do this for awhile and with the new ghoulking I thought it would be cool. losing Ghoulkin (i think thats what it was called) hurts but still plausible?

What else would you have? Just ghouls and Crypt Horrors? I'm not thinking it is plausible. Ghouls cost too much and cannot be raised beyond starting size now. One unit is still a hard hitter by popular concensus. All ghouls...no.:thumbsdown:
 
You want some anvils and some hammers and some redirectors and some tar pits and some magic. The problem with ghouls is that they aren't really any of those things. Too soft to be an anvil, don't hit hard enough to be a hammer, too expensive to tar pit or redirect. Back in the day, when they were cheaper and had better special rules (vanguard, raise over starting), they were much better. Now? not so much.

In an all ghoul themed army, you've got decent anvils out of crypt horrors, but the ghouls are still a little iffy. Sticking a kitted out ghoul king in a unit helps, but probably not by enough. You'll still want zombies for tar pits and wolves for redirectors, and you'll still need hammers (vargheists is probably the most 'in theme'). And you'll still need magic support, which will mean necromancers, and maybe a mortis engine, if you can reconcile it with your theme in your head. Once you've taken all that, I could see it working I guess, but then again, how much of a 'ghoul army' are you really running at that point? Let's see, 2400 point game, lets say 400ish point ghoul king, two 100ish point necromancers, a small zombie bunker, a larger zombie tar pit, a couple minimal units of dire wolves, six horrors, six vargheists, terrorgheist, mortis engine, that only leaves room for, what? One big block of 40 ghouls? Is that a ghoul army? Ghouls are so much more expensive than zombies that you don't really get many more ghouls if you dropped them. I suppose you could drop the terrorgheist? I don't know. Doesn't seem like a good move. And I don't see it working without the mortis engine.

But maybe I'm wrong.
 
Ok thanks for the replies. I just like the thought of it I guess, but am not interested in losing every game just to have a cool looking ghoul army.
 
Try writing up an army list, see what turns out. It's easier to conceptualize, then.

Crypt Horrors, Ghoul Kings, and Vargheists (if you consider the latter 'ghoulish' enough) do a lot to help the viability of a strigoi army theme. I'm just not sure exactly how many ghouls you want to, or are really even able to field in it. I mean, what size game were you thinking, and how many actual ghouls would it need to include for you to consider it a 'ghoul army'? Are we talking a watchtower block of 20 ghouls and a big block of 30 or 40 in a 24 to 2600 point game? That's probably functional. Are we talking about two hordes of 40 ghouls each in a 2000 point game? That's probably not so ideal, though I'm sure there are certainly some armies out there that would struggle with that.
 
In my opinion ghouls were UNDERCOSTED in last book - that is why everyone (and his mother) was using them.
Ghouls are tough, have 2 attacks each AND poison. They are much, much better than any other VC core.
All "ghoul themed" army though is a no-no as you wont have enough standards and you will lose one of the scenarios automatically.
 
I've got my Strigoi list done, and I'm posting it later today in the appropriate thread. I'll link it here when I do; I'd LOVE people's comments & thoughts. STRIGOI FOR THE WIN BABY!!!

*EDIT* HERE is the link to my list of a ghoul-army

Brahm
 
veelckoo said:
In my opinion ghouls were UNDERCOSTED in last book - that is why everyone (and his mother) was using them.
Ghouls are tough, have 2 attacks each AND poison. They are much, much better than any other VC core.
All "ghoul themed" army though is a no-no as you wont have enough standards and you will lose one of the scenarios automatically.

I would agree that they were underpriced in the last book - but in the last book they had vanguard, and could be raised above starting strength, and could easily be given a high weapon skill from the crown.

Their stat line may have remained the same, but make no mistake, ghouls got a lot weaker in the current book. Weaker enough that smacking them with a price hike was unnecessary. They were in the same boat as grave guard - too good for their price, but only because of all the stacking buffs you could give them. Take away most of those buffs and the old price was fine, as the current price is fine for grave guard.

Ghouls are decent fighters, but compare them to empire swordsmen. The swordsmen have better weapon skill, but no poison, better save, but worse toughness. Ghouls are better, but twice as good? IMO, no.

Ghouls are still worth fielding in larger games, if only because they're core, and you have to fill those points up with something, and only so many blocks of troops will fit in your march bubble.

But an army primarily built off of ghouls? I don't know. I see strigoi armies working, with ghouls and zombies and wolves and bats and horrors and gheists and such, but the non-ghoul elements of that list seem pretty necessary to me, which, in the end, will still only leave you with a unit or two of ghouls in large games, less in smaller games.
 
I did not write that I liked price hike ;)
I agree that, with current book, they are little too expensive.
Above does not change the fact that they are able to dish out more damage than any other VC core (at a price of course).
Are there better core choices? I would say so.
Shadow asked if ghoul army is plausible. In my opinion it is.
 
I just want to know what constitutes a "ghoul army". A strigoi army is plausible. And army with ghouls, of course. An army with nothing but ghouls, crypt horrors, and ghoul kings? No, I don't think that would work. But that's pretty clearly taking the theme too far.

So how many ghouls constitutes a "ghoul army"? what other units are or aren't allowed? I think the answer to how plausible the army is depends on the answers to those questions.
 
Well, I don't think you could strictly do an all Ghoul army, but what you could do is go for a Strigoi/Beast list that focuses on the raw beastial nature of the Strigoi.

My thought is, Dire Wolves, Bats, Ghouls, Crypt Horrors, Zombies, Vargheists and Vargulfs would be a good start to a list themed towards a Strigoi Lord.
 
I would agree; look at what's mentioned in the Ghoul King entry of the book, and anything that mentions that they're "attracted" to that mockery of a court...

Brahm
 
Shadowspawn said:
My thought is, Dire Wolves, Bats, Ghouls, Crypt Horrors, Zombies, Vargheists and Vargulfs would be a good start to a list themed towards a Strigoi Lord.

"Strigoi List" doesn't necessarily mean the same thing as "Ghoul List" in my head, so I just need some clarification there. I'd say you could run a strigoi list of 2500 points or so with just one big block of 30 to 40 ghouls, or maybe a couple smaller ghoul blocks if you want to be able to fit some in a watchtower. That's enough ghouls in the army that it would pass muster as "Strigoi" in my head, depending on the rest of the list.

"Ghoul List", to me, implies more ghouls then that. Like, using ghouls and ghoulish units as the primary thrust of your force. Crypt horrors to the exclusion of vargheists. Two big blocks of 30 or more ghouls. And when you take it that far, you start running into issues.

As for a strigoi list....

First, keep in mind that Vargheists aren't defined as being a strigoi-aligned unit, canonically, they're VonCarstein. I know, I know, few VonCarstein players would claim them, and from the look and fundamental concept of them they seem more like a strigoi unit. The point is that if you're willing to include Vargheists in a Strigoi list then on some level you're wiling to allow a certain amount of re-fluffing.

Also, I will persist in defending Wights as an acceptable choice in Strigoi armies. Not 100%, like ghouls or crypt horrors or terrorgheists, but an acceptable choice on par with necomancers and zombies. Remember, Wights are pre-animated. It took some magical skill to bind their spirits to their bodies at the time of burial, but after that any old vampire can roll around and rouse them simply with their innate necromantic presence. It's harder for necromancers, but for a vampire, wights theoretically shouldn't be that much harder to muster once found than zombies.

The question is finding them in the first place, and conveniently for Strigoi, their favored hidey holes are barrows, catacombs, crypts, and caves near graveyards. In particular, Strigoi have an ancient & regal self image, seeing themselves as the heirs to the rightful rulers of Lahmia unjustly persecuted by their cowardly rivals. As such, Strigoi also prefer lairs with some degree of regal or noble trappings. And barrows, catacombs, and crypts of ancient nobility are exactly the kinds of places where a Strigoi would encounter Wights. Further, the elite regimented nature of the Wights would play into the delusional vampire's regal self-image, making them ideal bodyguards.

Again, I'm not arguing that wights are 'as good' a fit as crypt horrors, or even vargheists really, just that the image of the Strigoi isn't purely the 'bestial'. It's ruined nobility, the regal reduced to the bestial. It's that juxtaposition that brings out their true nature, imo.


Anyway, that's a long tangent.

Back to Strigoi armies - armies that featuring:

Prominent choices: Strigoi Ghoul Kings, ghouls, zombies (including bestial zombies), varghulfs, terrorgheists, and maybe vargheists

Possibly, if less prominently: necromancers, wights, maybe corpsemasters (the graveyard connection), maybe even a few ethereals, maybe hero level vampires representing recently turned strigoi who have not yet fully degenerated

If you view the theme as broadly as above, then it's certainly viable. Just remember to keep an eye on your banner count for B&G missions. If your only banner carrying units are regular zombies, be sure to take enough of them not to lose those games without playing. Make sure you've got some hammers, anvils, tar pits, casters, chaff, warmachine hunters, and maybe some support options.
 
I was thinking of trying a ghoul themed list out for fun as well. But I quickly realized that in 2500pts you can't really afford too many. So to keep the theme a float I put in one 40 man unit and two units of crypt horrors. a few uniits of dire wolves and my other two actual blocks were zombies. Also threw some more beasts in there to keep with the Strigoi theme. Fell bats and the like. I wanted to put a vargulf in there and or a terrorghiest but quickly realized that I needed at least 1 if not two mortis engines in there to up the regen to 4+ and 5+ on my ghoul and horror units. I guess in 2500 points you could do one engine and a monster. Also I had the idea of using the engine to help me cast. Necromancers were my go to and a Strigoi lord of course. Corpse cart as well. So the theme is monsters and zombies. Because there are zombies everywhere. So they fit in wherever you like them. I think the list works better in 3k because you can get that master necro and the strigoi lord on a terrorghiest if you really wanted to. And then maybe two other terrorghiests. But at that point you would be forfeiting the regen saves which I think are absolutely essential.
 
Well insomnia kicked in last night so I started kicking this idea around. Best list I could come up with went something like this.

Naked strigoi lord.
Lvl 4 master necro with 5+ ward (Idea was to model him as an albino "caster ghoul", statlines are surprisingly similar.)
2 x 20 ghouls.
1 x 18 ghouls.
2 x 6 horrors
2 x terrogheist

Puts you just shy of 2k if my lack of sleep addled brain can still do maths.

It's not ideal granted. Really you'd want *something* for the lord and some dire wolves for support. The list will just fold anytime blood and glory is rolled, but I can't see a way round that sticking with the ghoul theme.
It really is magic dependant. This relies on the necro casting IoN and van Hels every turn until it hits combat.
Haven't seen the size of the new horror models but I'm hoping the terrorgheists can use them for cover on the way in before jumping the enemy battleline and screaming at pretty much everything or rear charging, and then screaming.
Saying that, it could work. Not reliably, or game breakingly and it's not the list to take to a tourney. It is however different, and dramatic. Might even be fun to play.
 
Diodatyr said:
Naked strigoi lord.

find the points to give him a dragonbane gem, at least.

Lvl 4 master necro with 5+ ward (Idea was to model him as an albino "caster ghoul", statlines are surprisingly similar.)
2 x 20 ghouls.
1 x 18 ghouls.
2 x 6 horrors
2 x terrogheist

Problems:
1) lack of banners. One of the missions is won or lost off of having them. You want banners. I recommend swapping out the smaller unit of chouls for two or three units of zombies, at least. You've got to accept zombies within the theme. You just have to, it's not an option.

2) one horde of 30 to 40 ghouls is probably better then two small units of 20, due to instability wounds. Plus it lets you get more benefit out of successful buff spells from the necromancer.

3) a little light on hammers, particularly of the high strength type. You'll be able to fight poorly armored enemies pretty well, but you've only got the terrorgheist screams to to threaten heavily armored enemies with. You might want to consider a strength boosting sword for the ghoul king, and maybe swapping out one of your horror units for vargheists. Would require fidgeting with points, though.

I'm thinking:

ghoul king, +2 strength sword, dragonbane gem
Necromancer, lv2
Necromancer, lv2
30 ghouls
2x30 zombies w/ command
6 horrors
4 vargeists
2 terrorgheist

should be about 2k points. I'd really want to find the points for a mortis engine w/ blasphemous tome, probably a vargheist and a terrorgheist for it, but that might push it to far out of theme for your taste, if the zombies haven't already done so.

A slightly larger game would allow a decently equipped ghoul king and a master necro in the same list, at which point I wouldn't feel the mortis engine was as necessary anyway.
 
The reason i even kicked this idea around was a fellow member of the game group plays VC also and the last book it seemed feasible. We play mostly laid back fun games anyway so its not to serious. Even the tourneys we play are laid back affairs not GW official or the like.
 

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