Please help me with my VC dilemma

[gorenut]

Hey all.. I used to post a lot back in 6th ed at the Blood Keep.. but that place has been pretty dead lately.. yeaa.. pun.. haw.

In any case.. come 7th ed.. and I'm still flip flopping on which race to commit to. I currently purchased a buncha new Dark Elf models just because they're so gorgeous.. but something inside me still kind of wants to play VC.

I do have a lot of gripes with the army though.. in 6th ed. I was one of those guys who did sacrifice a hero slot to get a Vampire Lord. I always liked combat vampires and knowing I could take out anyone I want. Now I realize in 7th.. the army as a whole got stronger.. but I think our combat oriented vampires are quite fragile now. Magic is so much more attractive because there isn't that much incentive for your Lord to go combat. Other armies have combat oriented heroes that can take out VC Lords now (I saw an assassin totally murder a VC lord in a game, in another game, I saw even a DE Dreadlord take out a VC lord). Despite that.. I'm still kind of willing to give VC a chance though admittedly.. I am leaning more towards DE because of how flexible their armylist has become.

Here is what will really make me decide though.. I am still manly a modeler/collector over gamer. If there is a way I can field all the models I like.. thats the army for me. I know VC armies have a lot of flexibility when it comes to that. Out of DE.. I really like Cold One Knights and Corsairs. In the VC list, I really like the mounted Manfredd model, Grave Guards, Skeletons.. and I think if I did a little conversion work on the Varghulf.. i can like him too. So how would I incorporate all these models? The best I can think of is use Skeletons and Grave Guards for their obvious positions... but Cold One Knights will be difficult.. Corsairs too. I don't like Blood Knights as I think they're too 1 dimensional and expensive pointwise.. so the only thing I can think of for Cold One Knights is to paint the Cold Ones to look ethereal (I really don't want to butcher the lovely models). Corsairs.. ghouls perhaps?? But I just think they might look strange standing next to skeletons...

What do you guys think? Any suggestions on the models.. or even how I'm viewing VC from a rules standpoint... OR perhaps someone just needs to talk some sense into me and tell me to stick to DE!?! ok.. I'm going mad....(which is another thing that attracts me.. I want my Lord to be crazy.. so Crown of Stupidity will be a staple in his arsenal)

 

[Cromenon]

Welcome gorenut! glad to see you here apart from WarSeer

In any case.. come 7th ed.. and I'm still flip flopping on which race to commit to. I currently purchased a buncha new Dark Elf models just because they're so gorgeous.. but something inside me still kind of wants to play VC.

Hey, I'm going to convert my Black Knights from DE Cold One Knights, and I'm planning getting some corsairs for my Grave Guard. I agree with you, the new DE range is awesome.

I always liked combat vampires and knowing I could take out anyone I want. [...] Magic is so much more attractive because there isn't that much incentive for your Lord to go combat.

I assume that you, like me, played Blood Dragons, and it was nice having a WS 10 + Cursed Book Lord combo. I agree. Now, however, we got most interesting Vampiric Powers: Red Fury for 50 points, if well combined, is a bargain, and any vampire can potentially have killing blow thanks to the Sword of Kings. I agree that character vs character our vamps are a bit worse now, but that's a fact that must be solved through new army-whole strategies.

and I think if I did a little conversion work on the Varghulf.. i can like him too.

I was neither a fan of the Varghulf, but I assure you that this mini improves A LOT with a proper paintwork.

Hope I helped you not to abandon us... :lol:

 

[gorenut]

Thanks for some of the input. I just don't understand what was the big deal of having a badass CC vampire. I mean.. we are in the days of crazy Daemon lists with Bloodthirsters and other greater Daemons being way more common place. I would love to see an epic battle between a vampire and a bloodthirster. I remember the days of my Blood Dragon Lord (yes, you guessed right, I liked the concept of knightly/warrior vampires) going toe to toe with a Bloodthirster while he was on his Zombie Dragon. I know a lot of people will say vampires are still uber vs rank and file troops.. but so are most characters in other armies. I really wouldn't mind taking a bigger hit in magic if I can get my WS 10, 4 wound vampire lord back.

I still need a little more time to decide. As I've said already, DE as an army is still very attractive. My biggest incentive right now for VC is the fact that I may have a chance to use all the models I like.

I was also planning to maybe have Ethereal Executioners to represent Wraiths. I'm still trying to find a place for my Corsairs.. and it seems ghouls are still the only unit I can place them.. I'd just have to paint them to be undead.

 

[N.I.B]

gorenut, I see you still have your old avatar, cool.

Yeah I too mourn the loss of bloodlines and true vampire lords, but it's been half a year since the new book and it's time to move on. After all we can make more different competetive lists now, even if VC lost some of it's character and feel.

A vampire lord on a improved Nightmare that is immune to killing blow, in a big bus of Black Knights, with a Wight King BSB with regenerating banner, and that will pop up again after death, is pretty unkillable. And very very killy.

2+/4+ save, immune to poison and killing blow, protected by re-raisable champs, comes back after death on 2+... he's as safe and anyone can be, and a truckload of more fun than the old caster lord behind a sea of Ghouls.

Black Knights on CoK's, 5 posts down: http://warhammer.org.uk/PhP/viewtopic.php?t=48614

 

[Atropos]

Join us, dude! We're the coolest army around! Just think about Vampires, graveyards, troops coming back to "life", ZOMBIES!!! Ain't that cool?
I also play Dark Elves, they're quite interesting too, but honestly, I prefer VC. There's something about us Vamps that's UBER-COOL! Come on... just imagine about having a big block of Zombies... Then think... Oh, there's a War Hydra over there... What shall I do? Simple enough... Stick that Zombie unit in the Hydra's nose, and think to yourself: "OK, I just have to keep raising zombies, now I can forget about the Hydra".
Isn't that cool???
Come on!
And that's only one of the main tactics we , VC, use.

Think about it dude!

 

[LidlessPraetor]

And as far as CC vamps go, here's my personal fav:

Vampire Lord w/ Forbidden Lore(beasts), and whatever else you want
With the Bear's anger, his stat line is:
Strength 7, Toughness 6, with 7 Attacks.

He would wound a hydra on 2+!, and the hydra would need a 5+ to wound back. Of course, the big problem is if they dispel your bear's anger, so just take a Lore caddy to back him up lol

 

[gorenut]

Thanks for all the input so far. If I do go the route for VC, I will definitely use Cold One Knights as Black Knights. Especially now cause the new Cold Ones look agile enough to be this quick ethereal creature. Still have to find a place for Corsairs though.

Just glancing at the rules.. to even make my mentally insane/paranoid vampire that is protected and combat oriented...
Red Fury
Infinite Hatred
Either Walking Death or Dread Knight

Mounted on Steed
As far as equip, Carass
Crown of stupidity
Not sure to give him the Tomb blade or Blood drinker. I like Tomb Blade for the KB, but I think its just so much better on Wight Lord. Blood Drinker I suppose is good to sustain his own life.

I know Dread Knight would give my Vampire a better AS.. but it just feels bad putting in pts for heavy armor, lance, and barding on my steed when I'm not going to use it (I kind of want to keep an ethereal steed with Black Knights). Too bad we can't just get a mundane shield.

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Anyone use Lore of Death to try to get the spell to increase your wounds above starting?

Oh yea.. on a side note.. something I forgot to mention is also making my DE vs VC choice harder is that one of my most common opponent will in fact be Daemons. It seems like I'll just be playing a war of attrition and won't have room for flexible tactics... also because combat-wise, their lords are just tougher. Atleast with DE, I can switch things up and avoid things while still doing damage. I know consensus will be biased here.. but I still value everyone's opinions.

PS Thanks for all the help so far... sorry if some of you have seen me in other forums asking the same questions. I'm just trying to get as wide a variety of opinions as possible and being a VC player in 6th ed, I definitely like hearing from fellow VC players.

 

[therat]

I know Dread Knight would give my Vampire a better AS.. but it just feels bad putting in pts for heavy armor, lance, and barding on my steed when I'm not going to use it (I kind of want to keep an ethereal steed with Black Knights). Too bad we can't just get a mundane shield.

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Can a vampire ride a skeletal steed? I don't have my book with me right now, but I remember wanting to do the same thing and realizing that I could not.


Besides that, I totally agree on the lack-of-fighty-vamp problem. I miss being able to challenge almost anything with my BD and come out on top. I have, however, stuck to a CC lord and I fair well most of the time. Not to mention my opponents don't scream cheese all the time since my army isn't overly magic heavy. I'm actually planning on running a lord on abyssal terror w/red fury and dreadlance combo against my friend's new DE army (he's devised a pretty nasty list) and I'm confident his killyness will keep him on top.

Whatever you choose, always remember this: The vampire may leave his undead, but undeath never leaves the vampire.

 

[N.I.B]

No, vampires can't have skeletal steeds.

gorenut, you get a mundane shield with Dread Knight, for a 2+ save. For 25 points you get a lot actually. Add the Enchanted Shield and the Crown and you have an 1+/4+ save. Pretty good (even though I miss my old 0+ save).

Tomb Blade still suck, as it did in the old book. You're confusing it with the Sword of Kings. Blooddrinker is ok, if you're on a monsterous mount or in a unit of expensive knights. I'm no fan though, as I think S5 doesn't cut it. Sword of Might is the choice for me, unless I'm going for a lance

Dread Knight, Red Fury and Infinite Hatred are favorites, if you want to do a Blood Dragon. The only drawback is that you can't afford Forbidden Lore.

Or take Walking Death instead of Dread Knight, give him Talisman of Lycni and the Carstein Ring, take Ghoulkin on a thrall and you have the infamous Ghoul Torpedo that can win the game before your opponent get his first turn! March 8" after deployment, charge 18". If you die, you get back up again (hopefully).

Be glad that you will face a lot of Daemon players, that way you will get a challenge instead of just walking over your opponents. Unless he packs the stubborn banner on a Khorne Herald, you stand a good chance of winning.
Forbidden Lore is excellent against DoC - The Beast Covers on the Bloodthirster, and he's not doing anything. Last game I killed a Thirster with my Bears Anger'd vampire lord. Good times And Black Coaches rock vs Daemons.

Here's my attempt to recreate the Blood Dragon bloodline, a bit down the post. I'm about 25-0 with it
https://www.vampirecounts.net/showthread.php?tid=3005

 

[gorenut]

Awesome NIB. Thanks for the input and the correction. Thats exactly what I meant. Unfortunate on the new skeletal steeds though. Looks like I won't bother putting them into Black Knights.

I think I'm still slightly leaning more towards DE.. simply for the dynamic play. With VC right now.. it seems more like I'm working around restrictions.. while DE, an army list is hard to make because I'm spoiled with choices which are all very viable and flexible. To really top it off.. I just got 2 boxes of Corsairs, a box of Cold One Knights, and a chariot for free. I mean.. I suppose I can still convert all my DE into undead, haha.. then that leaves me to my original problem on what to do with all the corsairs.

 

[Arion]

I will use corsairs as ghouls in my Undead Darkelves Army (yes its still going, fluff changed dramaticly). The reason being, they have 2 attacks each (the same) and in fluff they have similar roles, skirting around the edges attacking. Its what i recommend you do.

Another idea is the put them in with the normal skeletons to add variety, just make sure they look undead. They could of course be all the skeletons you want.

And dont use dark elves, you'll miss out on our wonderful site....

One corsair could even be converted into a Hero or Lord, instant army!

 

[N.I.B]

Yeah the new DE have several different viable builds - but so has VC. But I assume you're talking about model restrictions.

 

[gorenut]

Yeah the new DE have several different viable builds - but so has VC. But I assume you're talking about model restrictions.

Yea, definitely. Because as it stands right now.. pretty much the only VC models I like are Skeletons, Grave Guards, Mannfred, Vlad, and possibly the Varguhlf with a few modifications (I don't much like his goofy teeth and pose).

While DE, I totally love Corsairs, Black Guards, Executioners, Cold One Knights, my custom converted sorcerers and shades. Assassins are pretty darn cool too.

However, as far as restrictions.. I did partially meant the list as well. DE seems to have way more viable units that act different and characters. VC, you're pretty much stuck with Vampires unless you want to actually "cripple" yourself. Even with the characters, you see pretty much the same bloodlines used over and over. Thats why whenever someone says "you get 100 pts of bloodlines and 100 pts of equip, thats so much flexiblity!" its kind of deceiving. Certain things cost so much points for their effectiveness that you usually see the same powers/equip on all builds.

I'll still see what I might be able to pull as far as using corsairs as ghouls.. but right now.. I might just go on and finalize my army as Dark Elf... things like assassins, black guards, and execs are just too cool to pass up (especially assassins). Plus I like knowing that I can really participate in every phase. Perhaps I'll just do a 1k force of Vampires on the side so I can just load up on Skeletons and Grave Guards.