Question about general vc play.

[Evil Dead]

Im new to vc, or planning to start vc or go restart skaven (haven't played since 6th).

Could you guys give a few brief pointers on how vc is generaly played.

What's the most important aspects to think about when setting togheter a army list?

Now in 8th zombies are a very very expensive roadblock that won't create anything more than a little bump in thre road imo, or am i wrong? Do people have their uses for them? Enlighten me please. Im used to slaves @ 2 pts each and they even come with a better stat line than zombies.

 

[Loempiaketzer]

i can only try to inform you about what i know (and not totally updated on 8th)

Magic went a complete new way. so that needs testing how vampires are handled with best. (and actually all casters in warhammer fantasy)

still, you need to let your general survive.
we are still undead (meaning we crumble after losing combat)
uhhmm

8th seems a lot more CC orientated and you will hit in innitiative order. that being said. we assume charging isnt THAT important anymore since it only gives 1 CR.
With the Initiative in mind, we have basic innitiative of 2 or something, so we will mainly strike last in combat so we take a lot of hits before we can punch anything.

i cant come up with good pointers... but eh! i tried!!
i suggest you look at some of the topics on this forum. its good stuff to read and getys you in the blood sucking mood.

I, for one, would go with skaven. just to learn the basics of 8th. then, when you know what you want. get the right core/lord/hero/special/rare choises for VC and you dont have to collect like... all types times 20

so,... welcome back to the nice and bloody world of warhammer!

 

[Wiggins]

The main advantages of Vampire Counts are as follows.

We never have a flank collapse due to units breaking and panic.

We can still magic move into enemy units. Only we and Tomb Kings can still do that, to my knowledge.

We can regain our units if they aren't wiped out, so rather than choosing between losing a key unit or retreating once its depleted, we have the third option, to concentrate a good magic phase on getting the models back.
Further to this, it is possible to concentrate a magic phase on increasing the size of key units above starting strenght, if that is built into your list.

With Forbidden Lore, access to Magic Items, and good low level bound items, we have a very strong offensive magic phase.

Our Heroes and Lords are some of the most adaptable and customisable in the game.

The main downsides of vampires are;

Our characters have a greater risk of getting themselves killed if they go off alone, than any others in the game.

We haven't got any decent variation of troops, so it's hard to find the variety outside of our characters.


Aspects to remember;
What do you want your magic phase to do? (Kill, Support or Raise)
What units do you intend to keep "alive"? (Characters, Grave Guard, Black Knights or Blood Knights)
How do you intend to do so? (Infantry=Wizards, Cavalry=Blood Drinker and protective Banners, Characters=Ward Saves)
Unfortunately the Banners and Ward Saves aren't as good as they were, but still, you do what you have to.


I have never deployed a unit of zombies.

I have raised zombies to redirect frenzied units.
I once raised 2 long lines of zombies blocking the line of sight of a gunline, so the whole lot could only fire at the zombies.

These things will not work in 8th. Frenzy's downside is no longer guaranteed. Gunlines can now use true line of sight through units.

If for any reason a character was running alone, having failed to charge out of a unit, or maybe casting magic that might miscast and destroy his unit, then I might raise some zombies next to him for a 4+ look out sir. Also to redirect any potential charges away from him if possible.

A line of zombies can also be used to destroy breaking units. This should still work, but we will now have to work a lot harder to break them.

 

[Kalandros]

There's no longer any "remove the unit" when fleeing through enemy units, you simply take a dangerous terrain test which means models that roll a 1 lose one wound with no armor save, which wont be killing much stuff.

And its only models that actually would go through an enemy model, so if you clip a unit, only the models clipping take the test.

 

[Evil Dead]

Okay, so you have to have a game plan about what to do with your magic phase and kind of stick with it since it's part of the foundation for how you build your army, am i right?

Looking upon the list a few builds come to my mind.
1, a heavy infantery build using many blocks of inf backed up by a few hard hitting units with loads of capable hth combat heros
2, a very mobile (for being undead) army using bats, wolfs, knights, ghouls with the ghoulkin power coach and stuff like that
3, fill me in here please haha

Also, ghouls vs skeletons as main core? T4 psn attacks vs better saves and possibly spears, what's the general concept about these troops?

So if/when i start vc i should pick up zombie models in some form even though im not planing to field them from start ye?

 

[Wiggins]

Yes I would say so.

Option 1 looks like what most of the rest of us are thinking for 8th.
Option 2 is what I own, as that's how I played 7th.
Option 3. ? Whatever you want it to be, I guess. A lot of people used to run as many blood knights as they could fit, with a lord and a bsb in the unit. I thought that was a silly amount of points in one place, and so never did, but sometimes used black knights for the same. It seems no one thinks this will work in 8th, and they're probably right.

I like Ghouls a lot. With T4 and starting 1 turn closer to the enemy, I've always thought of them as more survivable. In 8th edition though, Musicians and Standards both look very tempting, and the parry rule is not to be sniffed at. Skeletons are probably the safer bet.

Yes, I'd pick up some zombies. But they'll be very situational, and you may find you only raise them 1 game in 10 now, depending what sorts of opponents you are up against.

 

[Evil Dead]

I was looking forward to making a swift horde with alot of bats wraith, ethereal stuff and so on, but i want a quite competitive list aswell. Ill have to figure it out and make it work somehow.

About the bloodknights, they are really hard hitting it seems but comes with a matching cost. How does the wargulf and the wraiths compare to the knights ikn regards of point per point?

 

[Dklyn]

I've never used blood knights, but with everything striking in init order, one wound from a higher init model would rob you of a 55 point attack, so I would think that it would make them less effective.

wraiths and varghulfs are pretty fun IMO. Wraiths, just be careful where you put them to keep them away from combat heroes. If a caster is gunning them down, get them into combat ASAP (using VDM works for me) to avoid nuking. Usually their 3 s5 attacks do enough dmg to prevent crumbling against weak enough units. Against big blocks of tougher guys, I would only
Varghulf is nasty in CC with thunderstomp, only problem I have with him is that range can eliminate him pretty fast (being big makes him hard to hide) if they are flaming attacks, then all they have to penetrate is T5 and they wound. With him I would say only take on small skirmish-type units solo, otherwise, for best use attack in concert with rank and file.

Of course, do what you enjoy. I don't think having a fast hitting list will be bad for ya. The only word of caution is that I personally don't think wolves are worth it. They are in essence ghouls that lose their poison, extra attack, ability to count for core, and extra toughness to gain swiftstride and M9. However, if you want them to they can function for your army. I'd just say be careful about spending a lot of points on them

 

[Evil Dead]

Ye, i noticed they dont reform for free any more since the loss of the fast cav rule. That's a real hard blow since that was the thing that made you pick them i guess in 7th.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

There's no longer any "remove the unit" when fleeing through enemy units, you simply take a dangerous terrain test which means models that roll a 1 lose one wound with no armor save, which wont be killing much stuff.

And its only models that actually would go through an enemy model, so if you clip a unit, only the models clipping take the test.

Nooooo!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! You just gave my pessimist side the advantage it needed........rrraaaaaarrgh!!!!! VC suck! VC suck!


.......ok, now another aspect of my pessimist side will become prominent; grim melancholy. (At least it's not mindless rage.)

Well, that's a spirit-breaker. Zombies now officially have no use. I might not even take the Raise Dead spell on my Necromancers. It's probably because GW realised that we could buy 20 in one box, and that it was too cheap, but they didn't want to enrage us by raising prices. Well, it saves 15pts per Necro I guess.

Now that zombies have finally died, big blocks of infantry are all we really have left. Black Knights were irreparably nerfed, and Blood Knights.... its frickin the same cost as a Battalion for five of them! And they're damned hard to make, being all metal. So Grave Guard is our good unit now. Blocks of infantry, either Ghouls or Skeletons, supported by Corpse Carts, perhaps a Varghulf or two, and elite blocks of Grave Guard, with characters scattered about like lethargic applause: *Clap*.....sigh....*Clap*.....sigh.....*Clump*......bigger sigh.....

I haven't yet reached the full doom-sayer aspect of my darker side, so things can't be that bad. We've taken a hit, and a nasty one too. But we are still competent; we just have to fight for our victories! (DoC player sniggers in the corner)


.....why do I always find myself listening to big, up-lifting, powerful orchestral music when I'm on CN....?

 

[Ophidicus]

Just summon them facing away from the unit you previously wanted to crossfire, have them flee through, then in your following turn have them charge the fleeing unit & force it to flee again. Obviously there's thepossibility that they'll rally but the Zs can still hold them up for a bit. Takes slightly more planning than the (rather dull) instant death effetct, but more fun in the long run.

Also, stop moaning.

 

[Loempiaketzer]

BRAAAAAAAAIININNNSSSSS
Zombies just simply rock.
raised ones that is! i mean, not so many armys can just 'magic' a wall of brain eating mass!
i think they got a lot more situational. but still usefull in their own way.
night gobbo's, skaven slaves, gnoblars and the likes have a better statline- yes... but dont stand a chance against anything too! Zombies at least cause fear so that should be worth something!
i think they are cute and fluffy. ill raise em when i see fit.

vampire counts just got better now you cant really field an 'all killing unit'

 

[Count Darvaleth]

Also, stop moaning.

Don't worry, it's not full moaning; just light-hearted distress.

Fluff-wise, I would probably buy hundreds of zombies and field them as a mega-unit.

But game-wise....as it has been put, they are a lot more situational. And putting the zombies behind and not-auto-catching means they will get in the way of the victorious unit....lots of manoeuvring problems.

 

[Brian Mage]

I care not if the highest powered or not.
I will have a Horde of GG, Horde of skellies OR Ghouls

AND

Horde of zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzombiesssssssssssssssssss. (120pts!)

Helm not to far away on a bunkered spell slinger
WS6 Zombies
Even if they are dog turd, its only 120pts and its looks cool and it could roll well and its fun and its another thing for the enemy to sort out and erm... and ya mum!

Sorry thats prob too far off topic, i appologise unreservedly!

Most of what is said above is spot on IMO. Helm of Commandment, Check. Forbidden Lore. Check. Fighty Vampire Lord with 4+ Ward and redfury/infinate hatred combo (lots disagree, but my "always lord") check. Grave Guard everywhere, Check. oh and Black Coach... get one of them at least...

[edit number like 1,000,000] - oh and looks wise skellies win, but in the game T4 poison attacks NORMALY beats armour save & ranks from skellies

 

[Fodderboy]

Ye, i noticed they dont reform for free any more since the loss of the fast cav rule. That's a real hard blow since that was the thing that made you pick them i guess in 7th.

Only Dogs were fast cav, Blood Knights never were.

As for a horde of zombies, you'd be better off forcing the break some other way, then using your 6 ranks of zombies to get 6d6 free hits as they run away.