Rant: How could they screw up Vampire Counts?!

[Barghest]

In my opinion, I like the new VC list and models. I agree on some points, such as the incosistency with Ghoul regiments. But I like the new VC models.

It's true, I did call up a friend the first time I saw the new Mannfred in order to make fun of it (I belive my exact words were "How did he lose all his hair and get beefed up all of a sudden? It's like they got Vin Diesel to rule Sylvania"), but i really like the idea of feral vampires. It makes them seem more like predators and less like suckers in black. And I really like the Varghulf. It helps, I think, to remove vampires a step further from humanity. Plus, I think the model is dead cool.

 

[benccowan]

i know someones probanly already said this but the reason they made the vamps so ulgly is to make it more realistic when they go intoi battle they dont say ''oh my god i better look pretty if that soldier over thier survives i dont want him to tell people im ugly'' no! they ''unleash the beasts within'' as constantly said in the von carstain trilogy in which thier faces contort to reveal the more varghulfy part of thier being (one ugly mo fo i might add) to scare the crap out of the people facing them

 

[Sarthex]

nail hit right on the head:lol:
i looked at the new skeletons again and they're so SWEET!!
PS: did i mention the skellies are sweet? sweet!:lol:
curse you, you damned cafeine-containing-liquid-better-known-as-cola!!

 

[benccowan]

i didnt just hit the nail on the head i abused it as a child by repeatedly throwing bottles at it

 

[Sarthex]

i didnt just hit the nail on the head i abused it as a child by repeatedly throwing bottles at it

okaaaaay... *calls mental department* :lol:

 

[benccowan]

i didnt just hit the nail on the head i abused it as a child by repeatedly throwing bottles at it

okaaaaay... *calls mental department* :lol:

oh dont do that thiers no point i can easily get out of strait jackets and the last lot that tried to take me to the loonie bin are currantly in thier themselves :lol:

 

[Lord Fear]

The new Skeletons are indeed sweet, though in a bit of a "cute" way, I'd say...

 

[benccowan]

ino thier not very scary

 

[Pulimuli]

The thing about Mannfred is that after researching and learning all the magic he know, his face and skin whitered and became corpse-like, before he was a handsome,tall man with black hair Although i liked the old one better, they atleast made up a reason for him looking like shit. Ill probably use the old Mannfred model since i just cant stand him being bald and buff!

Vlad's model is for the better, look at the old one, one of the worst models EVER and he looks like that in combat when they dont even try to hide their true face. Otherwise the vampires are beautiful/handsome.

 

[Bug16]

Regarding the artwork, that's a matter of personal taste. I personally don't mind John Blanche's artwork, it's more impressonistic and has a dirty, shambling look to it, which I think suits the Undead rather well.

John's artwork is bl**dy awdul imo. Many years ago he was such a great fantasy artist. He then started his awful sketchy ink flicking style with 40k 2nd edition and he's still at it now.

The art for the zombie is nothing short of pathetic imo. Honestly, I can draw a lot better than that.

Though I do have to say, the artist responsible for the artwork of the queen of mysteries on page 28, same person who also did the ones of Vlad and Isabella and Konrad and Mannfred, now that is great artwork imo.

I couldn't agree more. They're superb pieces of work and the capture the atmosphere of the characters very well. In fact, the only artwork in the book I don't like is John's.

 

[Nethirsalis]

I liked the bloodlines, but I'm a total non-conformist with my warhammer background, so I do love the new vampiric powers rules etc. plus I always thought it really stupid that a super-strong dark-magical-supernovae of a character could not wear armor and still cast unless you were the blood dragon.

totally agree with all points in the original post regarding the ghoul models, though I never liked the old ones either, and definitely the Mannfred models. How comical do those ghostly cloaks look!?

on an aside, I think the blood knights are sent from whatever ill favored deity sponsors my dice rolls and such, as I mostly play against chaos, and those blood knights and maybe some dire wolves are really going to give my regular opponent's pesky chaos knights a reason to clean out their saddles

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Regarding the artwork, that's a matter of personal taste. I personally don't mind John Blanche's artwork, it's more impressonistic and has a dirty, shambling look to it, which I think suits the Undead rather well.

John's artwork is bl**dy awdul imo. Many years ago he was such a great fantasy artist. He then started his awful sketchy ink flicking style with 40k 2nd edition and he's still at it now.

The art for the zombie is nothing short of pathetic imo. Honestly, I can draw a lot better than that.

Though I do have to say, the artist responsible for the artwork of the queen of mysteries on page 28, same person who also did the ones of Vlad and Isabella and Konrad and Mannfred, now that is great artwork imo.

I couldn't agree more. They're superb pieces of work and the capture the atmosphere of the characters very well. In fact, the only artwork in the book I don't like is John's.

Glad to see someone else agree's with me on the artwork

 

[Jack of Blades]

Let's see...

The art on page 5. That's the kind of artwork I like. Page 7 is nice too, the picture on page 8 isn't good... page 9 is good. Page 13 is good. The artwork on page 14 deserves a whole page, but it's still good. I don't even know what the hell the artwork on page 22 is supposed to be, but I don't like it. Page 24 is kinda meh... it's too crammed. 26 is nice and so is 27 and 28.

Then we come to the unit part which I dislike a lot. First, the pictures should have been bigger and second, they have too little background things in them. Not to mention I don't like the artwork at all. At least the artwork for the Ghouls looks good (but again, the picture is too small; there should be a line of soldiers they're attacking). Zombies, urgh. Corpse Cart is nice but, yes you guessed it, the picture is too small. GG is ok, but only because you can't really get GG wrong, they're too cool for that. It should have been awesome but it's just ok. The Black Knight picture is too small, and the other picture is uh, no-thank-you.

The rest of his pictures are also meh/bad, thanks to small size/I don't like his style. It just looks so boring, static and... and... ergh... If it was fan material or something, I don't think I'd be so harsh because I couldn't draw on that level (I'd get the truth out though), but when it's someone's job?

Although I love the new book otherwise. There are some minor issues (like how the Frostblade is still stupid), but that's it.

 

[FatOlaf]

I'm staring at my (Bday) new 2 Corpse Carts, my Varghulf , my winged Vamp (superb IMO) and Manfred. I semi retired my Vc (Count Olaf) army last year and had real doubts about the new army book.
HOWEVER
I have been totally converted, the book gives you so many options it's untrue..
We have seen the start of the cheese lists, 20 wraiths, BK plus Regen banner that will give Vamps a real chance against the usual Tournie lists , Empire Stank + KF, Thorek, 2 Treemen , All HE! ...

There are models and rules I do dislike however.

Models wise, Ghouls, Wolves and the female Vamp are awful... Vlad and Manfred on foot are ridiculous..
TKOTBK are awful, I mean really really awful, what a waste (apart from the wicked horses).

I like the new GG and skellies but have so many of the old ones, that I cant see myself buying any of the new ones, especially at that price..

I wish they had took the chance to make new Fell bats and replace the awful BK's (Voltaire took them off my hands) and also the hosts, but we all have conversions so not all bad.
And new Zombies like the ones on the cart would have been nice...


As for rules I really like 80% of the book..

As for the 20%:

1) Ghouls are not dead, I want them alive and skirmishing....

2) Banshee's can scream at zombies and kill them....ridiculous! We now own the most powerful killer in the game, it can hurt anything (good for us, bad to face)

3) Von Carstein ring - taken a great magic object and now made it worthless, what was the point, should have at least kept it as it was but only on Vlad..

4) Wolves are cheaper but cant hit a thing, they were pretty much useless in 6th but now worse..

5) Swarms either not cheap enough still or need some better rules, my bases will still not come off the shelves..

Have not played with my 7thEd Vc yet, have been too busy playing new VC players and on the whole twonking them...

Have not had the pleasure of EvC's Konrad campaign list yet though....

So on the whole I am very pleased and Count Olaf will rise again next week against the Empire!

 

[Nethirsalis]

TKOTBK

someone tell me what TKOTBK is.

4) Wolves are cheaper but cant hit a thing, they were pretty much useless in 6th but now worse..

seriously, aren't dire wolves just fast zombies really? Nothing, no matter how crap its stats are is useless, simply unused! You found a use for zombies, I assume, I'm sure you could find a use for some cheap fast cavalry! However, I agree on every other point.

 

[Azahul]

TKOTBK-the knights of the blood keep (normally KOTBK)
i know ive found a use for my wolves. sure, they barely ever live past turn 3 lol but the number of things ive redirected away from my army is amazing :grin: (except for that unit of ogres i accidently redirected into my black coach i still say they should have missed the coach)

 

[Nethirsalis]

ouch, ogres! yeah, I desperately need some dire wolves to block frenzied charges from my blood knights.

 

[Richie]

I have never liked any of the female vampires but rather than complain about it I think sculpting something for yourself as you would see fitting better is the right way to go about things.

 

[scarecr0w14]

concerning minis i think the new ones are much better than the old ones, i wouldnt like a pretty boy as my vampire, i like him to look a bit nosferato or salims lot!

 

[Thomas von Carstein]

Hi all VC players!

First off i'd like to apologize for bumping a post from 3 pages back, but i have had a reason for this (also, i registered here for this sole purpouse, so give me a chance ): I took a year-long break from anything Warhammer-related (WoW is a dangerous game, people ) and when i came back and wanted to check out the news on my VC army pages, i almost fell of my chair... not to mention my day was totally ruined. After that I "aquired" a copy of the new VC army book but that only made it worse

Kham, I just couldn't agree with you more. What GW have done with the new VC's, is like a swift & hard kick to the genitals of their players. Here's some of my points:

In my opinion, the new models are absolutely hideous, plus they make no sense at all.
First off the vampires: they used to appear like the type of vampire they were, but now they are all types mashed together in to an undefinable figure which has a Necrarch head, a Blood Dragon's armour, the clothes of a von Carstein, the extremities of a Strigoi and possibly the genitals of a Lahmian for all we know... Their former looks were in nice context with their bloodlines (more on that later) but now that the bloodlines are gone (BOOOO), so are their looks - very sad imo.

For all those who disagree on this, let me tell you: I'm a huge fan of vampires and read & seen a LOT of stuff regarding these things. Ever since humanity started to invent stories about them, they changed their looks and behaved accordingly: Klaus Kinsky in the movie "Nosferatu" played a secluded, ugly and disturbing vampire which would be a Necrarch. Bella Lugosi in the movie "Dracula" played a courtly and aristocratic vampire which would be a von Carstein. That Latifah chick (rip) in "The queen of the damned" was obviously a Lahmian. I can't find a direct referrence to the Blood Dragons and Strigoi, but they represented the martial and feral aspects very good. Now you have one model who could be anything from a fighter-caster to a wizard-warrior which is a bad thing fluff & otherwise. I was also very annoyed with the stuff sticking out of their cloaks: I mean, why should all vampires have spirits/bats/skulls/fountains of blood jutting from their backs? How many times did you see something like that in a movie? maybe 1-2 times and only then for a few seconds, no reason to walk around all the time cloaked in a pillar of bats or spirits.

Next, ghouls: why the hell have GW removed the skirmish rule?! It was much more in corelation with their nature - like they said in VC 6th ed.: "Ghouls are unorganised and cowardly, so they couldn't be expected to fight in an organised rank & file unit." How true... but now it's all wrong. The models look just like you said: like a bunch of Notredame hunchbacks and Igors who fell in to a wat of green paint. And why they suddenly became undead is also a mistery... Omg, the wolves are also horrible: they aren't even exactly "wolves" anymore, they could be any decomposed canine animal: dogs, coyotes, cheetas, baby bears, whatever. Bah, too bad again.

As for the new rules for necromancers: stupid. First off, necromancers are (technically looking) alive. Second, necromancers can become very powerful and even rival the vampires themselves, for instance Heinrich Kemmler or Vanhel, so they can also lead their own armies. Where did the guys at GW get the idea that the only purpouse in the life of a necromancer is spending his eternity as a lowly ass-licking sidekick of a vampire?!

Finally, the bloodline fiasco. All who will say that the new rules give them the freedom to make a more special vampire, should tell me what hindered them before? Oh, the bloodline?! Well, tough luck - it's called GENETICS! If your mom has blond hair and your dad has a big nose, you will probably end up with blonde hair and a big nose. If your parents enjoy reading and hiking, they will probably transfer some of their habits on to you while you're young. So why shouldn't the same thing be true in Warhammer? Just becouse it's a fantasy game? I mean come on, apply some basic logic...

All in all im VERY dissapointed and will probably go back to play WoW again, there stuff at least makes more sense. Sorry for the long post & thanks to all who read it, have fun all. Bye, T.

 

[N1AK]

Hi all VC players!

First off i'd like to apologize for bumping a post from 3 pages back, but i have had a reason for this

Welcome to Carpe Noctem Thomas

When GW re-did the Vampire Counts book they changed a large amount of the background, yes some of it contradicts earlier background but that doesn't make it wrong (it's something GW has done all its life).

Their is no reason why Ghouls should be Skirmishers, if they are an unorganised rabble then they should be a infantry block with other penalties. Skirmishing isn't designed to simply mean the models stand further apart, it is a specific combat style.

Some changes such as making the entire army undead were obviously done to make the rules more streamlined both for the Vampire player and his opponent.
They are called GAMES Workshop, and when writing rules it is important they make for good games.

If you want to take a Great Necromancer, then base him on a Vampire and give him upgrades that fit. No ones going to care that you call your Vampire Lord with Accursed Armour a Necromancer Lord.
From an army balance perspective the downside of a Vampire Lord is that he has great combat potential (which costs points) but it is risky to use it. For this reason many people take Vampire Lords but keep them out of combat.
If a Necromancer Lord was cheaper than a Vampire Lord then players with magical Lords would ignore the Vampire and take the cheaper Necromancer.

Your GENETICS analogy although somewhat valid (ignoring confusing Nature and Nurture when it comes to choice of hobby) has never really suited Vampires to me.
Surely by the arguement of Genetics, over dozens of generations the Vampire families will of become less pure and more diverse. The fact that your Great Great Great Grandfather was a Ginger Haired White skinned Scotsman doesn't mean that you couldn't be an Olive Skinned Black Haired Spaniard for example.

I always found the old Blood Lines boring and horribly cliche, at least with the new system every Vampire isn't a copy of some B-movie villian with no personality of their own.

 

[The Dark Lord Mr Fluffy]

Hi all VC players!

Welcome to CN!
Ah there are a lot of good and bad things with the new Vamps...
Model wise, they just don't make the cut, as the older ones (Like the blood dragon with the great weapon *drool*) were so great for their time. But then again, its probably the easiest type of character to make, after all, you get a model you like, paint it pale-ish then add some blood on its lips. I've even seen it on Gobbos, looked great (if a little odd ) So, its what you make it really. I mean the only new models I use are the skellys and Wights, with the new characters in there to see what it was like painting them. A self made Vamp is always better.

But I'll give it to GW, they can't make nice models all too often, but I love the corpse cart! Then again, the new skellys look ace. Grave Guard are alright, not brilliant but usable. They didn't re-do the models that needed it most! Spirit Hosts! Black Knights! Fell Bats! I had to use different models for the first two, but its hard making giant bats from scratch

As for Rules, Blood Dragons have been booted from our style of play quite a bit. No more WS9 and Strenght of Steel with a sword of might :'(
Necrarchs have a good system in the new rules, as do Von Carstiens. Lahmians got hard done, getting a single bloodline power through! And only a single piece of Magic Armour that was one of their old bloodline powers! Strigoi is debatable, I think they make good rules for them now, except they're all mages now (for fluff, thats breaking their character)

But there are good things with the changes:
As far as magic goes, we rule! We can have fairly decent combat lords, who are still Lv 3s :lol:

We get saves from crumbling now, so the Regeneration Banner
basically works twice if we lose

Blood Knights - these guys rip apart everything! Now, they're good models IMO, but I mean look at the price tag! Madness! If you cough up the cash, you have some mighty knights.

All but one of our Heros has gotten better (Silly Necro ). Wight Kings now own everything. Vampires are very easy to customize, easily tuned to the way you play. Bah, poor necro, but at least he gets to choose his spells...

Everything can be Healed!! A Lord with Blood Drinker in with Blood Knights exploits this delisiously . Fixing characters was good, as was core, but now when you fix D6 Wights, your opponent will start crying when all his hard work shooting the scary unit of doom to death, they get right back up :grin:


___________________________________________


All in all, its a step up from the last, but it has changed the way I play VCs. More magic reliant, as we go through simple spells just to move :|.
But we can become very magic heavy, which is good, and quite scary.

Thumbs up from me, just bring back a Ws 9 S7 combat lord who doesn't strike last! Yay uber killy lord of doom!

 

[Lord Fear]

Hi Thomas, good to hear from you, though why so negative? VCs may have undergone a bit of a change, but I think you're a bit unfair on some of your points!

The new Vampire models are pretty awful, I agree. Many don't, but one thing's for sure: going by our new Vamps, the new Chaos models are going to be absolutely amazing. Still, nothing stopping us using our old, better models in the meantime.

I agree that Ghouls losing Skirmish is unfortunate, but N1ak makes a good point: proper Skirmishers are meant to fight in that position through skill, training, or natural ability. Ghouls really have none of these, and so it's not too bad that they lost the skirmish ability. From a balance point of view, it's a big shame, as is their loss of the living status.

You can't really condemn GW for changing the rules for Necromancers to being alive: they were undead in the last edition too! There may be a proper Necromancer army down the line, but as is, Necromancers are just weak tools within a Vampire Counts army.

Bloodlines are something easy to get angry over, but really, are bloodlines so cast in stone? You brought up nurture as well as nature, which has a big impact. Look at the major von Carsteins:
Vlad- all-rounded, founder of the bloodline, archetypical von Carstein
Mannfred- amazing magic user, a lot like a Necrarch
Konrad- amazing fighter, a lot like a Blood Dragon
Isabelle- seductress, a lot like a Lahmian

So you can see, the Bloodlines can't be pigeonholed. I do dislike some aspects though, especially the frequent "Necrarch with 30 Ghouls" armies we see these days, but GW can never get everything right...

 

[Thomas von Carstein]

Hehe, thanks for the replies I feel a bit better now... sorry for the angry post, guess i can never manage to quite understand the decisions that GW makes; I'll just have to get used to them... <sigh> Well, see you all around, bye

 

[Kaptain Von]

How many times did you see something like that in a movie? maybe 1-2 times and only then for a few seconds, no reason to walk around all the time cloaked in a pillar of bats or spirits.

A few things. First: seeing things in a film. I'm under the impression that GW wanted to define what a Warhammer Vampire looked like, drawing on the existing ideas of What Makes A Vampire without making the Obvious Hammer Horror Vampire, the Obvious Queen Of The Damned Vampire and the Obvious Nosferatu Vampire.

Second: miniatures are static representations of things that move and change. Konrad is very obviously posing, making himself very noticeable in an attempt to scare people - hence the bats. They've probably flown off by the time he hits combat. I sincerely doubt they're flapping around him all the time.

And why they suddenly became undead is also a mistery...

They're not Undead. They follow the Undead rules for the sake of gameplay, but their bestiary description makes it quite clear that they are alive - just controlled and attracted by Dark Magic.

As for the new rules for necromancers: stupid. First off, necromancers are (technically looking) alive. Second, necromancers can become very powerful and even rival the vampires themselves, for instance Heinrich Kemmler or Vanhel, so they can also lead their own armies. Where did the guys at GW get the idea that the only purpouse in the life of a necromancer is spending his eternity as a lowly ass-licking sidekick of a vampire?!

Gav Thorpe's designer's notes are pretty clear on this. I don't think I can post a link to them (the GW site tends to bounce links back to its Choose A Country splash pages, annoyingly), but they're out there, and they state that he didn't want the very strong archetypes of the Vampire and the powerful Necromancer treading on each other's toes in this book. The Necromancer is such a strong archetype that it'll probably have a list in its own right. What I'm hoping for, personally, is more special-character-based lists like the Army of the Lichemaster - something that's very much centred on the character of the Liche or Necromancer at the army's heart.