Red fury in a challange
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dongilles said:
I'd say "yes", but the maximum combat res you will be able to get out of the challenge is 5 from overkill. 4 extra attacks should get you there quite easily!
PrinceCharming
Black Knight
Actually not , as red fury are additionao attacks , And they dont happen simultaniously, And iT is hard to direct attacks at à dead model
PrinceCharming
Black Knight
Well in order to do red fury attacks , u need to wound The model , so if u do 4 wounds on à 1 wound model , u wont get. red fury , because te model is slain, same with à dragon , if The enemy is dead in à challenge , And u still have thunder stomp left , you wont be able to do iT, caus there is no one to wound 
.
.You will get the red fury attack, because they happen at the same initiative. If your mount came at the same initiative, it could carry out its attacks as well even through we know the model will die. Similar if the enemy model has attacks at that initiative he will be allowed to strike back. Even though we all know he will die.
You are correct that you would not be able to carry out a Thunder Stomp, but that is because it happens at a later initiative.
Well I base my argument on two parts:
1. The additional fury attacks are fought at the same initiative as the initial attacks.
2. All attacks that happen at a given initiative happen simultaneously, even if you roll them in a sequential order.
Which is it you don't agree with?
You are correct that you would not be able to carry out a Thunder Stomp, but that is because it happens at a later initiative.
Well I base my argument on two parts:
1. The additional fury attacks are fought at the same initiative as the initial attacks.
2. All attacks that happen at a given initiative happen simultaneously, even if you roll them in a sequential order.
Which is it you don't agree with?
Von Drak
Skeleton
I don't have the BRB near but I got a question in mind ...
If I wound 4 times in a duel
The opponent parry only 1 ... so 1 wound and 2 overkill.
I add 3 attacks with red fury ... can he use parry again ?
Thanks
If I wound 4 times in a duel
The opponent parry only 1 ... so 1 wound and 2 overkill.
I add 3 attacks with red fury ... can he use parry again ?
Thanks
Yes Red fury will kick in, but to cause a wound the model is removed so even though you might have an extra 3 attacks there is no model for you to attack, so those attacks are wasted
here is the rule from the BRB
"If the opponent is slain before all of a model's attacks are made then any excess Attacks are lost" Pg 103
here is the rule from the BRB
"If the opponent is slain before all of a model's attacks are made then any excess Attacks are lost" Pg 103
Yes they happen at the same I, however the model is already slain, by the nature of Red Fury the model has to be wounded in order to generate the additional attacks. if the model only has 1 wound then it is removed once one wound has been done to it. so yes you generate additional attacks but there is no one to direct them against.
They use thunderstomps as an example not as a be all end all. the specifc part that maters is "before all of a model's attacks are made"
Did you do a wound to the model? yes
how many wounds does the model have? 1
remove model
Red fury activates you get +1 attack, but there is no one to attack
They use thunderstomps as an example not as a be all end all. the specifc part that maters is "before all of a model's attacks are made"
Did you do a wound to the model? yes
how many wounds does the model have? 1
remove model
Red fury activates you get +1 attack, but there is no one to attack
TinTip said:
Just for clarity in the discussion the full quote on p103 is:
"If the opponent is slain before all of a model's attacks are made (because a competitor and his mount strike at different initiative steps, for example) then any excess Attacks are lost and cannot be directed against other models."
In case of Red Fury, the attacks are made at the same initiative steps. Not at different initiative step.
Smogg said:
Which doesn't end the discussion. It said "for example", indicating that that is only ONE reason why attacks would be wasted.
The truth is, this could be argued multiple ways. My personal reading is that the wounds actually have to go through before triggering RF, and so the model would be dead. Even though they're at the same I step, an event had to occur and resolve before going through.
Either way is as valid a reading, though, because the actual answer isn't specified and both arguments make sense. Should be FAQ'd, roll off if it comes up.
BRB page 103 under Overkill states:
"Note that this is an exception to the rule stating that a model can only suffer as many wounds as it has on its profile..."
I'd say RAW, you get to wound him as much as you like... then generate as many attacks with red Fury as allowed, and then wound him some more, for a Total of "remaining Wounds" + "5 from Overkill" score while in a challenge.
"Note that this is an exception to the rule stating that a model can only suffer as many wounds as it has on its profile..."
I'd say RAW, you get to wound him as much as you like... then generate as many attacks with red Fury as allowed, and then wound him some more, for a Total of "remaining Wounds" + "5 from Overkill" score while in a challenge.
@RarerMonsters My point was that TinTip use this very quote to justify that the additional red fury attacks (which happen at the same innitiative) are lost. But he omits the example which describe the very opposite scenario: That attacks are lost because they come at different innitiative. So it's not a very well chosen quote to back his case.
I don't agree at all with your motion to brush this example aside. While it's true an example is not exchaustive, you don't make an example of something if the opposite is also true. That would make it a completely pointless example.
While the quote might not prove my point all by itself, it surly is fully aligned with my interpitation. As said earlier, my argument is based on that all attacks in a given initiative steps happen simultaniously even if you carry them out sequencially. There is absolutly nothing in the rules to even suggest that you put in some kind of extra step after which further attacks can be lost.
For good meassure here is an example of attacks that happen simultaniously but are carried out sequencially:
My ASF Blender Vampire Lord charge Crone Hellebron and they end up in a challenge. As it is my turn, i choose to let me Vampire attack first. The sequence is:
1. My vampire is luckly and cause 5 wounds on Crone Hellebron. Because it's a challenge he is not limited by the wounds on her profile.
2. My vampire immidiately make 5 more attacks according to red fury. He now cause further 3 wounds still within the ASF innitiative step.
3. We all know that Hellebron's fate is sealed but her attacks are also ASF. She cause 8 wounds on my Blender Lord, killing him as well.
Now the ASF innitiave step has been resolved. Both models are dead.
4. If my blender lord had been mounted on a zombie dragon which strikes at a slower initiative, its attacks would have been lost because they come at a later innitiative step.
I don't agree at all with your motion to brush this example aside. While it's true an example is not exchaustive, you don't make an example of something if the opposite is also true. That would make it a completely pointless example.
While the quote might not prove my point all by itself, it surly is fully aligned with my interpitation. As said earlier, my argument is based on that all attacks in a given initiative steps happen simultaniously even if you carry them out sequencially. There is absolutly nothing in the rules to even suggest that you put in some kind of extra step after which further attacks can be lost.
For good meassure here is an example of attacks that happen simultaniously but are carried out sequencially:
My ASF Blender Vampire Lord charge Crone Hellebron and they end up in a challenge. As it is my turn, i choose to let me Vampire attack first. The sequence is:
1. My vampire is luckly and cause 5 wounds on Crone Hellebron. Because it's a challenge he is not limited by the wounds on her profile.
2. My vampire immidiately make 5 more attacks according to red fury. He now cause further 3 wounds still within the ASF innitiative step.
3. We all know that Hellebron's fate is sealed but her attacks are also ASF. She cause 8 wounds on my Blender Lord, killing him as well.
Now the ASF innitiave step has been resolved. Both models are dead.
4. If my blender lord had been mounted on a zombie dragon which strikes at a slower initiative, its attacks would have been lost because they come at a later innitiative step.
TinTip said:
This is wrong...
The VC codex for RF states for each unsaved wound not wound caused.
In other words as soon as your opponent fails to save the wound you immediately take your extra attacks because they are in the same initiative step. Then once all attacks are accounted for are the wounds actually caused; killing the model.
Which can make RF a huge liability if you cant bring those attacks against rank and file models. I lost a game because I was forced to attack a character which denied me my usual CR and crumbled my lord.
Aedin is right. Once the wound is unsaved Red Fury says to Immediately make new attacks. In essence RF makes a second Combat phase between the Armor saves portion and the Remove casualties portion. So you get all the attacks in a challenge.
Tin Tip you're quoting an exert from a paragraph talking about mounts in A challenge
Tin Tip you're quoting an exert from a paragraph talking about mounts in A challenge
Thanks for clearing this up.
I have an other Red fury question hopefully you guys/gals know the anwser to this one to.
What happen when I am not in a challenge and I am b2b contact with a hero and normal models. Can I direct my first attacks at the hero and when he dies can I use my new Red Fury attacks to attack the unit?
I have an other Red fury question hopefully you guys/gals know the anwser to this one to.
What happen when I am not in a challenge and I am b2b contact with a hero and normal models. Can I direct my first attacks at the hero and when he dies can I use my new Red Fury attacks to attack the unit?
Thindol
Grave Guard
Because all of your attacks are at the same initiative you can direct them anywhere you want. It's only your first set of attacks that you have to declare.