Reform amid victory questions

[Oppenheimer]

I'm concerned that I'm reforming after winning a combat wrong. I have some questions if you wouldn't mind helping me.

1) If you enter CC at a strange position so you're not fully lined up with the enemy such as :

xxxxx
    ooooo

At the end can the winning team reform just to shimmy over to be in better contact so more warriors can fight? If the losing team decides to reform amid defeat (after passing the leadership test) can they move some of their units out of base contact as long as 1 is still touching? Assuming both can change which units are in B2B during a reform who gets priority if one wants to move less units into contact and one wants to move more of them?

2) You not only win but wipe out the enemy unit. Overrun is a choice, right? So if you choose not to overrun, can you then reform to face a different direction?

3) If an enemy unit breaks and you restrain (after making your leadership test) can you reform amid victory at this point and turn to face another direction?

Thanks for your help!

Oh, and one side note. Did anyone ever notice that the Terrorgheist's stat block for Mounts under the Reference section is weaker than anywhere else in the manual?

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

1) Im curious but if you end up in combat like the diagram above you should get as many models in base to base as possible.

Closing the door its called i think.

2) yes u can

3) im sure you can

Which stats are different? Book not with me

 

[Oppenheimer]

Maybe I'm doing the closing the door wrong. But when you come at a unit on a strange angle (such as when you use your one up to 90 degree turn during your charge to get around an impassible object or intervening unit) sometimes you hit them only on the corner. Even when you flatten both units out ("close the door") it doesn't connect them more than just one or two units in base contact. But we never flatten more than about 90 degrees. Are you saying that if you hit and not many of the units are touching you should keep "closing the door" past when they're flat to bring one side all the way around? This would end up making some chargers in flank from defenders.

Also, I find that strange off center attacks happen a lot with Overruns since they say to go straight ahead which can often run you just into the corner of another unit.

Terrogheist in Mounts in the Summary page has:
Toughness 5, Wounds 5, Initiative 2.

Everywhere else (including on the mounts page earlier) it is T 6, W 6, I 3.

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

Ah right sorry was going off the diagram rather than potential objects. Never encountered that problem so not 100% without consulting my book.

So basically the proof readers need slapping. Messed up kemmler and a terrorgheist in one book lol

 

[Corien Sumatris]

You're "Closing The Door" correctly. You do not maximize models (That was a 7th ed thing). You can reform to get more into combat after the 1st round. In order for your opponent to get less in base contact he would have to reform to a smaller frontage. You cannot move models out of base contact otherwise.

FYI: I tried to do the whole XXXXX/OOOOO thing and it did not work the way I thought it would.

 

[Oppenheimer]

Great thanks. I'm always worried I'm doing something wrong since we just kind of learned out of the book rather than having someone experienced teach us.

Since you mentioned maximizing models, you have to pick which side of the unit to hit based on what would allow you to come into contact with the most models (and what your one 90 degree turn will allow), right?

If for example you could hit the front and touch 3 models, or you could hit the flank and touch 1 model, you have to hit the front even if you'd rather get the flank bonus, right?

 

[Smogg]

No, the side you hit depends on where if your unit is located in his front arc or flank arc. If the majority of your unit is in his flank arc, that's where you will hit.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Based off of line of sight is what determines Flank vs Front. If the majority of your models are within the opponents front ark then you hit the front. They have examples of the "Front Arc" in the BRB for ya.

Also, as far as maximizing, You must take the shortest route possible to reach your target. You are not allowed to wheel a bunch to try and get more or less models in contact.

 

[Smogg]

I don't think you need to take the shortest route though, as long as you only make one wheel and maximize number of models in contact.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Really? I guess it was just an assumption, But I always figured that since you measure from the closest model for charge distances that you had to move the shortest route, while still maximizing of course. But you couldn't wheel during the movement to put yourself into their flank if when the charge was declared you were in the front arc

 

[Mad 'At]

1) I felt this was not yet fully answered. The most important rule for combat reforms is that no models who were in B2B with enemy before the reform can be without it after the reform. In other words, you can only ever try to bring more models to the fight. Though there may still be situations where it is important to know who goes first with the reform, in there cases you roll off to see.

Based off of line of sight is what determines Flank vs Front. If the majority of your models are within the opponents front ark then you hit the front. They have examples of the "Front Arc" in the BRB for ya.

Also, as far as maximizing, You must take the shortest route possible to reach your target. You are not allowed to wheel a bunch to try and get more or less models in contact.

You check where the majority of the models in the front rank are when it comes to determine front/flank/rear charges. Not where the majority of the whole unit is.

No need to take the shortest route either, just try and maximise as much a possible.

 

[Oppenheimer]

Aha. Good to know. You guys are awesome. Thanks for both answering my questions and not making me feel dumb for asking

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Oh not a problem! that's why we're all here is it not?

@Mad 'at: So then would I be able to declare a charge (and lets say make it). I start off in the front arc, although we are not lined up perfectly. I move forward till the majority of my front rank goes from being in the front arc to being in the side arc, Use my one wheel to line up in the flank better, then acheive a flank charge even though I started in the front before I moved for the charge? I'm picturing a horde charging a Lance of Bret Knights (Small frontage, nice big 'ol flanks).

P.S. I'm not trying to play devils advocate, If I could charge like this then that opens a whole new strategy into my life!

 

[Mad 'At]

Afraid not, front/flank/rear charge is determined before any moves are made. Also, if there is a tie between how many models in the arc you randomise, not sure exactly when though.

 

[Smogg]

Really? I guess it was just an assumption, But I always figured that since you measure from the closest model for charge distances that you had to move the shortest route, while still maximizing of course. But you couldn't wheel during the movement to put yourself into their flank if when the charge was declared you were in the front arc

yep, normally it would not be relevant, but there are cases where it can be used. Imagine you are charging a cannon, but it's not dead straight ahead. The natural thing would be to wheel a bit and move the short distance... but you could instead move past it, wheel around and get it from behind or the side. Since it does not have a front arc, you can often get in position to overrun into the next war machine if you take the longer route. Especially flyers can often take advantage of this.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Lame!! oh well, it was worth a shot. And I would assume that you would randomize before you roll for movement due to charge reaction purposes.

 

[Demian]

Regarding the first question: if any party reforms amid combat (victory or not) and brings more models into b2b contact, the other side can only reform to bring even MORE models in b2b with enemies. Since every reform is handled one by one, once you (or your opponent) managed to get more models into the fight, the other one can't "undo" it by moving away.

Also, the only way you can end up having only a few models in b2b from a charge is if there is something in the terrain blocking you (or your opponent) from closing the door while maximizing. As I believe, you can't decide only to "touch" some models if you have the chance to bring more into the fray.

 

[eggsPR]

Yes other units or impassable can make instances where 2 hordes are in CC with each other with only 1 corner model from each unit in BtB contact. If that's the way it works, then that's the way it works.

Also remeber, you can charge and land less than 1" from other units/impassabile, but you CANNOT combat reform to slide models/units within 1" away.

The winner may combat reform freely, but before that he must see if the loser wants to reform... if the loser does want to reform, he must pass the same Ld test he passed to not run away (in our case, it's never modified bc we unbreakable), then there is a roll off. The winner of the roll-off either:
A) reforms first
B) chooses which player reforms fitst

I'll have to look that up.

In any case, you can slide weaker models away from stronger opponents, so long as the weaker model isn't out of combat completely (you can slide him next to plebs). Though if your opponent then reforms after you, he can then slide his stronger guy back next to your weaker guy. Comabt reforms are important.

 

[Mad 'At]

I'm pretty sure A is the correct one Eggie. 8th edition defined the meaning of a roll-off early in the book to be that way IIRC and use it on several occasions throughout the whole rule system.

 

[eggsPR]

Nice thanks, I guess it's kinda like a roll off for deployment. Person wins the roll off, he must place his 1st unit. Person wins the roll off for first turn, highest roll goes first.

 

[kevin.hopkins7]

Actually, this is different from the normal roll-off situations. B is correct. Page 55, 'Unusual Situations'. "If both sides wish to make (or attempt to make) a combat reform, take any Leadership tests required in order to make the reforms, then roll off to determine which side makes all of his reforms first (the winner of the roll-off decides)."

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Nice find there buddy!

 

[Aedin]

Ok some confusion from my part reading through this...

If you charge and it looks like this XXXXXXXXXX
..........................................................OOOOOOOOOO

Don't you have to maximize models fighting by moving either unit so that it looks like this XXXXXXXXXX
...............................................................................................................................OOOOOOOOOO

Sorry if this dont turn out having problem doing the X-O thing.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Yeah that turned out a bit backwards.


XXXXXX
........00000

goes to

XXXXXX
000000

 

[Oppenheimer]

You can use "code" and "/code" (replace quotes with square brackets) to remove formatting so you can get your xxxx and oooo to line up as you'd like.