Resurrection of Vampire Masters in AoS...and why didn't W'soran make it?

[Disciple of Nagash]

I've been catching up on my AoS lore, of which I am woefully behind compared to my knowledge when it comes to the VC/Undead in general in the Old World.

It's been interesting to see Nagash bringing back the original vampire masters...although for the life of me I still can't understand why he would bring back Mannfred instead of Vlad/Vashanesh. The ultimate bitch boy who brought around the death of the Old World and the least trustworthy by a long shot!

Ushoran has popped up since I was last deep in AoS lore, I really like his return, his delusions along with the Flesheater Courts, big thumbs up from me on that.

Surprisingly whilst research for my Bloodline articles I found there were even references to Abhorash! I'd love to know how he managed to pop back up but there doesn't look to be any lore on that I like to think that maybe him and his bestie Leon (who were fighting together in the end times) mounted Leon's Griffin as the world collapsed, riding into the sky, becoming the ultimate power couple, and using the power of man-love to rematerialise in the AoS realms.

So the big question there for me is why W'soran has been done the dirty? Vashanesh has of course but GW always wants Mannfred to be their Carstein poster boy, but the Necrarchs were a loved Bloodline with lots of cool lore. They were really different from other vampires (shameless plug to my Necrarch article), and I think would have fit in well being crazy experimenters in AoS. What do we reckon, GW just didn't they fit, or maybe planning on adding them in the future?

 

[Sception]

In terms of watsonian reasons... wsoran got punked by his apprentice (who later got punked by /his/ apprentice). even if he pulled an uno reverse to possess them after death (which the lore isn't terribly consistent about), that doesn't speak highly of his competence.

He also just doesn't bring much to the table as a mortarch that other mortarchs don't already provide.

Neferata had political subtlety & ability to infiltrate & manipulate high caste mortals, something especially relevant during the age of myth. Ushoran in contrast had the ability to draw in, enthrall, & passify the teeming masses, at a scale no other could match.

Mannfred's wild ambition gives him a vicious cunning and unpredictable creativity that makes him almost wholly unique among the undead, who in warhammer are defined by their inability to change and grow.

Mannfed is also - and this is something that has sadly been lost somewhat in his AoS rules but is very much a part of his lore - the greatest necromancer the old world ever produced in terms of raw power and talent, apart from Nagash himself. As we see in the End Times, even Arkhan only barely holds his own with Mannfred in arcane duels due to Nagash favoring him with exclusive necromantic secrets & artefact of power.

W'Soran is loyal, but not as loyal as Arkhan. And he's necromantically adept, but not as adept as Mannfred. So I'm not sure what would really motivate Nagash to bring him back.

Then we must consider Nagash's character. The great Necromancer's primary personality trait, the cornerstone of his actions and motivations, is Jealousy. In some ways he is the god of Jealousy even more than of death. Not envy, mind. He doesn't crave what others have, rather he unrelentinly clings to that which he considers his own. He will never, ever, let anything go.

This is why he never simply kills rebellious vassals. Instead he curses them, imprisons them, punishes them in ways calculated to twist them back around to his service. We see this pattern again and again, especially in AoS. Not just Mannfred, but also Tamra, Ushoran, Vhordrai, Olynder - the entire Nighthaunt faction, where almost every unit is some variant of this concept.

Nagash can discard a loyal servant who fails for being simply unworthy, or sacrifice them as a cost paid to achieve a greater end. But he cannot abandon a traitorious vassal. To do so would be admitting they were never really his to begin with. It would be letting them go, and Nagash never lets go of what is his.

..........

In terms of doylist reasons, mannfred is just more fun and more memorable, even if he is incredibly silly and unserious. It's like G1 tranaformers, the most fun & memorable character was always Starscream, he was the best part of that show despite how little sense it made for Megatron to keep him around.

By contrast wsoran is just a less interesting arkhan, who is already a bit dull by whit of being the undead's put upon straight man. That's a worthwhile character type to havr around, but you don't really need more than one of him.

Now, that's not to say you couldn't make wsoran interesting. go a bit sillier with him, play up the mad scientist angle, etc. But they could just as easily create a new character for that, & frankly Grand Alliance Death already had an awful lot of old world holdovers. Too many, I'd argue, despite there being a few more with stories that I would have liked to see continued (khalida, isabella).

 

[Sception]

As for abhorash - he has only been obliquely implied. Vhordrai had a master in the age of myth, a "blood emperor" who he served, who rebelled against nagash and was imprisoned (again, Nagash will never destroy a traitor) for doing so. This blood emperor is very abhorash-shaped, but we have no confirmation that it was actuslly him, nor do i ever expect such confirmation to be given.

EDIT: I do think his inclusion even to this extent is pretty interesting, and was a positive change even if I'm mostly against transplanting more old world characters into AoS. The new lore significantly elevates Vhordrai, who was a pretty disappointing stock character before that, basically just an rehash of the End Times version of Wallach Harkon, which was not imo the best take on that character. New vhordrai is "Abhorash lite, but with lore implying he's trying to revive Abhorash original, so Abhorash stans will like him and root for him instead of rejecting him as just a substitute for the guy that they actually want, even though that's literally what he is," which is a pretty difficult play to pull off, but that seems to be relatively successful, helped along by vhordrai's fantastic new model.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

and this is something that has sadly been lost somewhat in his AoS rules but is very much a part of his lore - the greatest necromancer the old world ever produced in terms of raw power and talent, apart from Nagash himself.

I'm curious where this is referenced from. Mannfred was certainly one of the most powerful Necromancers in WHFB, but I've never heard of him explicitly described as the greatest after Nagash? W'soran (before his downfall) was meant to be immensely powerful in necromancy, literally if was the Necrarch's thing to be corrupted and degraded by the amount of Dhar that W'soran imbued that it forever tainted his bloodline and attuned them much more to the winds of magic compared to the other bloodlines.

That said, I think you have hit on one point there - the magical side of the Necrarchs works when you don't have the greatest Necromancer of them all around! Nagash's rules were absent for a very long time in WHFB (and as a fanboy you can imagine how much I celebrated when he returned with that beautiful model of his!), so it made sense to have this other line that were potent.

That said though, even from a lore perspective W'soran was the only vampire who was loyal to Nagash before he was initially destroyed, and so with that in mind I would have thought he would be one of the first he would want to bring back considering how distinctly disloyal the other vampires were! If we consider the storyline where W'soran purposely allowed himself to be destroyed, to then exist purely in death to manipulate others over the ages, I wonder was W'soran powerful enough that perhaps he can't be summoned back, maybe strong enough to resist?

Whilst I don't think it would be great to just bring W'soran and the Necrarchs back as the "powerful necromancers" faction, as the kooky twisted experimenters, the mad scientists I do think there is a bit of a gap there that would be quite good in the Death faction.

Abhorash and Vhordrai I agree on, I like the update to his lore and coupled with that simply beautiful model, it's something to build a force around as the castellan of the keep. I do wonder whether they will ever bring Abhorash into the game though, as the general consensus was that he never appeared in WHFB, even in the end times, as GW could likely never do him justice rules wise as someone who was supposedly unmatched in single combat, that wouldn't upset his fans!

 

[Sception]

I'm curious where this is referenced from. Mannfred was certainly one of the most powerful Necromancers in WHFB, but I've never heard of him explicitly described as the greatest after Nagash? W'soran (before his downfall) was meant to be immensely powerful in necromancy, literally if was the Necrarch's thing to be corrupted and degraded by the amount of Dhar that W'soran imbued that it forever tainted his bloodline and attuned them much more to the winds of magic compared to the other bloodlines.

Less a direct reference thing, and more just an observation based on feats in lore. The bone wall around Sylvania immediately before the end times in particular is a feat of necromantic magic that is more nagashian in scope than pretty much anything not done by literally Nagash, and then we have the aforementioned end times duel with Arkhan, where Arkhan himself observes that Mannfred's raw power outmatches his own.

As for the necromantic talents of the Necrarchs, at the height of bloodline rules there was that notable short story with a necrarch vampire surprised to find themselves overpowered in the art by their own necromancer pupil, and forced to resort to brute strength to save themselves. So even at the time when bloodline mattered most, carrying W'Sorans blood didn't automatically mean a vampire's necromantic mastery would be greater than that of some other practitioner who lacked it. Personally, as much as Necrarchs were my favorite bloodline in terms of tone and aesthetic, I have a hard time crediting their strength or competence when we have more lore of them jobbing to their own apprentices than we have of them actually accomplishing anything.

As is, I'm more inclined to read the specialness of the necrarch bloodline as more a matter of the ability to eat magic instead of blood, something which made them less likely to go mad & monstrous from starvation, but that also left them physically weaker, mentally unstable, and in particular less likely to see any reason to leave their isolated wizard towers in order to actually do anything. Which is fair enough, I know I'd leave my house less if I didn't have to eat. But not being forced out of their home by hunger and ambition also meant not seeking out lost lore and artefacts, or keeping abreast of the latest developments among the arcane colleges, or getting into situations that would put their arcane powers to the test - that would force them to surpass their own limits or fall in the attempt.

These are all things that Mannfred very much did do, at least when he wasn't taking a bog nap.

At least, they're things Mannfred did in the Old World Lore. Sadly the writers have made so little use of him in AoS - especially after 1st edition - that he almost might as well have been left behind.

....

Bit of a tangent, but just how important bloodline was to a vampire's powers and abilities has varied pretty widely throughout Warhammer Lore. While I like the lore of the bloodlines themselves, their histories and characters, I was always more a fan of the Vamp Count army rules that didn't include bespoke bloodline mechanics, and of the warhammer vampire lore that was built up around those non-bloodline-based rulesets. Again part of why I've backed out of the homebrew bloodline stuff - my sensibilities are just a poor match for it. I prefer the versions of warhammer vampire lore where the powers and abilities and potential of a given vampire is mostly a product of their own personal talent, ambition, and character flaws, rather than an inherited fraction of their sire's power. That sire based take on vampirism makes the sires big and cool, but it also makes all other vampires inherently lesser than them, ultimately putting a hard ceiling on how cool or important any given non-sire vampire can be. That doesn't sit well with me when IMO Luthor Harkon or Mannfred are much more interesting characters than Abhorash or W'Soran. Or when I find Vlad's life and death as Vlad far more compelling than any of the lore around Vashanesh.

That's a personal preference between conflicting takes in the lore, though, not an objectively correct position. It does mean that I have a lot of personal bias motivating me to prefer Mannfred over W'Soran specifically.

...

Anyway, yeah, Mannfred had a long history of getting impressive stuff done in the Old World, including a batman-esque world tour seeking out all the secrets of magic and necromancy back before his first fall, and in particular so much after his latter day revival in the lead up to the end times. IMO it's natural for Nagash to choose thim over W'Soran, a guy who, setting the pattern for his entire bloodline, is mostly known for jobbing to his apprentice, who in turn jobbed to his apprentice. But while I think the end times lore kind of did Zacharias dirty, and I think he should have been one of the end times mortarchs in place of maybe the Nameless, I wouldn't trade Mannfred or Neferata for him. Neither in End Times nor in AoS.

As for loyalty, I stick by my previous thoughts there. The Necrarchs were loyal to Nagash (at least until Zacharias), but loyalty isn't something Nagash rewards. It's something he expects, no matter how often that expectation proves to be misplaced. If anything, he rewards disloyalty. At least he does in AoS, where his blessings are basically the same as his curses, which is imo probably the coolest aspect of AoS Nagash.

....

As much as I talk down on Necrarchs in general here, I do love their whole aesthetic, and the lack of any meaningful accomplishments or presence in the lore is a more a mark against the lore and the GW writers than against necrarchs as a concept. If we ever do get an Old World Vamp Counts revival, I hope the bloodline finally gets a proper chance to actually do something in the narrative.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I can see some of the points around Mannfred's actions, and yes perhaps as an individual he was one of the most powerful in Necromancy....although as a character he still irks me in many ways.

But when it comes to the Necrarchs when looking over their background, many stories of them being the ones to teach the other bloodlines necromancy, and even just taking the intent from the Bloodline rules associated with them which whilst highlighting their lack of martial prowess, boosted their magical capabilities, I still believe in general the Necrarchs were in general terms the more potent spellcasters. The story you reference (6th edition army book) of the vampire Nicodemus doesn't reference his age etc, only that his human pupil advanced more quickly that expected, which I wouldn't take to cast doubt on the Necrarch bloodline in general, but instead highlight how Necromancers can become so powerful in magic in much less space of time due to their fear of natural death which vampires lack.

On the note of the bloodlines, fair to see we have our own personal preferences! I like having the bespoke bloodline mechanics, which traded some areas for others to create (what felt to me) to be more thematically better representation of the bloodlines on the tabletop. Fair to say this was heavily debated over the subsequent editions of course, and I think there's room for both, as long as they are balanced and pointed accordingly of course.

As for Zacharias, I've got to admit I wasn't a fan of his character. I found that taking Abhorash's thing (curing his hunger by draining a dragon) lacked some imagination. There's lot of cool little side stories on Necrarchs which I found when writing up the bloodline article, like experimenting with spirits and insane asylum mortals that I would have preferred they built a character around, so wasn't too fussed to see Nagash finish him off!

So we can agree on your final point, if GW bring VC back hopefully Necrarchs can be given some more depth and add more to the history of TOW.

 

[Unas the slayer]

I can see some of the points around Mannfred's actions, and yes perhaps as an individual he was one of the most powerful in Necromancy....although as a character he still irks me in many ways.

I find Mannfred similar to Horus' Herey Erebus. Which was a mastermind and one of the most successful being in all 30k universe, and also with no doubt the most despised one, by a far margin.

 

[Sception]

That's a big part of what I like about mannfred, but still very much something that makes sense for others to not like. Mannfred isn't just an antagonist or villain, he's a proper heel. He draws the heat, he's one of the most hatable characters in Warhammer canon. He's not sympathetic, he's not deep or complicated. He's not even cool. He's petty, vain, insecure, self destructive, and deeply unserious, like a 80s cartoon villain. To me that makes him funny and nostalgic and just a fun character to have around. But if you're trying to treat Warhammer as a serious setting that serious stories can happen in? Mannfred's kind of fundamentally antithetical to that. When Mannfred's around you can't ignore the fact that Warhammer lore is fundamentally just set dressing for smashing toy soldiers together.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Agree on that one, Mannfred is just a villain for villain's sake, and as mentioned, perhaps the point he is hated so much (like Erebus) means that actually he's a well written character! Has he done anything of note in AoS?

 

[Oppenheimer]

Just popping in to say I am perpetually heartbroken every time a new vampire model comes out and it's not a Vlad and Isabella model. They were my go tos in 8e and I love the idea of them loving each other even if they're both terrible otherwise. I am happy to see Nagash and Neferata get things to do but was never a Mannfred stan.

 

[Sception]

Has he done anything of note in AoS?

Frustratingly not that much that I'm aware of since 1e, at least not 'on screen'.

He was pretty active in 1e, though that was a very messy time with lots of retcons as the setting lore slowly came together over time.

post all the retcons...

Mannfred was involved in the Wars of the Dead, helping to conquer the underworlds for Nagash. He claimed his own nation of Carsteinia in Shyish populated by living settlers as well as the dead and undead which he shaped in the half-remembered image of old Sylvania, and founded his own bloodline of vampires, with a core family of abused sycophants chosen from mortals whose appearance reminded him of his 'family' in the old world. For a while he ruled over this parody of his old life as a petty tyrant, acting out old grudges against these pathetic substitutes for vlad, isabella, konrad, & all, but naturally it was hollow and brought him no satisfaction and so he abandoned the land altogether

After that he was involved in several kingdoms of Sjyish during the age of Myth & early Age of Chaos, presumably advancing a mix of his own schemes & those of Nagash.

When the Age of Sigmar first dawned & Sigmar first sent Stormcast to Shyish seeking Nagash's help to mend the flaw in the Soul Forging process, those Stormcast found Manfred trapped in a magical prison, seemingly having bern there for centuries. In exchange for his freedom, Mannfred led them to Nagash, who was furious at the Stormcast for releasing 'the traitor' who had 'sided with Chaos in an attempt to usurp Nagash's power'. Mannfred escaped, & the stormcast were killed, returning to Sigmar to report what happened.

The Stormcast later tried to reach out again through Neferata who secured a meeting with Arkhan in exchange for helping break the Chaos seige of Nulahmia. Arkhan said Nagash would forgive them and aid the Stormcast against Chaos if they corrected their error by recapturing Mannfred, which they attempted to do but failed, the vampire always slipping away at the last moment.

Throughout the Soul Wars the Stormcast would aid the forces of Death, but never received any aid in return. Promised undead reinforcements wouldn't arrive, or would attack the Stormcast they were supposed to aid, and always Mannfred was to blame, seemingly fighting to aid the Chaos forces.

This was all a ruse. Nagash had no intention of aiding the 'soul thieves', but was nearing completion of the great work. He had no resources to expend in battle, let alone fighting a war on two fronts against both Archaon and Sigmar, so Mannfred & Negerata were used as cat's paws to play the forces of Order and Chaos against each other while keeping his own strength in reserve.

After the Necroquake, though? Mannfred kind of falls into the background. Arkhan remains involved in whatever Nagash is doing, Olynder takes an active roll in the Soul Wars, Neferata goes to work reconquering Nefertaria in her novels, Katakros and the OBR burst onto the scene, quickly gobbling up territory in Shyish and, with Olynder's help, pushing into the 8 points. Mannfred, as far as I remember is pretty quiet through most of this Soul Wars period.

Next we hear from Mannfred he's reconquered Carsteinia (not very difficult, there's little of value there so not too much chaos presence). With Shyish falling back almost entirely under undead control & the other mortarchs carving out their own empires he had decided that no matter how little he cared for his old stomping grounds he couldn't be the only one without his own dominion.

He starts building up forces there, spawning more vampires, recruiting stray necromancers after Arkhan sacrificed his Legion of Sacrament to the Bone Tithe, forging pacts with Deathrattle kingdoms, seemingly building power for a major military push to claim Neferata's territory. With the rise of the Nighthaunts and Ossiarchs, Neferata & Mannfred had both come to the same conclusion that splitting dominion over the Soulblight between them was no longer good enough.

Nagash sends both Mannfred and Neferata to try to create mini Nadirs in other Realms, like Arkhan was trying to do in Hysh. Both are unsuccessful, as neither is willimg to commit enough forces to their respective campaigns due to not wanting to leave their lands exposed to the other. Then Eltharion kills Arkhan and Teclis banishes Nagash and stills the Necroquake. Mannfred & Neferata both immediately return to Shyish to launch open Civil War on each other.

Which supposedly has been waging ever since, keeping both the Soulblight mortarchs busy during 3e & 4e, but frustratingly we've seen exactly none of it. A civil war between the two Soulblight mortarchs should have been a huge deal in the lore, at least within the Soulblight battletomes, but since Neferata & Mannfred weren't getting new models the focus was instead on the Vyrkos in the 2e & 3e battletomes, & on Vhordrai & deathrattle kingdoms, like as a general concept, in the 4e tome.

Meanwhile Death's presence in the larger narrative has been carried by Ushoran and his fancy new model & faction revamp. OBR and Nighthaunt for their part lost all of their forward momentum from 2e, with Olynder & Kataktos being even more disappointinly unused in 3e & 4e than the Soulblight mortarchs.