Retry! 2250 Bare-bones list. What now?

[YourMumRang]

Hi all. Here's my list. It's not intended to be uber-nasty but more consisting of really nice minis I wanna paint. A few questions...

- How much more casting do I need?
- Can that Lord alone manage topping up my units?
- Would a couple Wight Kings be good? I like the idea of a solo Vamp raising this army.

Characters
Lord Foul: Lvl 3 Vampire Lord
Master of the Black Arts - Dark Acolyte - Lord of the Dead
Skull Staff - Helm of Commandment
445pts

Core:
10 Ghouls: Ghast @ 88pts
15 Skeletons: Full Command - Shields - Banner of Undead Legion @ 165pts
15 Skeletons: Full Command - Spears - Banner of Endless Nightmare @ 165pts
6 Wolves @ 48pts
6 Wolves @ 48pts

Special:
14 Grave Guard: Full Command - War Banner @ 223pts
14 Grave Guard: Great Weapons - Banner of the Barrows @ 257pts

Rare:
Vargulf @ 175pts

1526pts

 

[Sovereign]

I strongly suggest that you make your units bigger to start with. Granted, the 8 power dice with a +1 to cast (+2 with skeletons, but remember that you always fail to cast a spell on a 1 or 2 regardless of bonuses) with only one character is really awesome, but casting Invocation of Nehek with all of them means you aren't abusing people with Wind of Undeath, Vanhel's Danse Macabre, and the other fun stuff in our lore.

The Vargulf, if it accompanies the Wolves, can keep them marching just fine- but the rest of your army will need to stay within 12" of your Vampire Lord until they charge. 12" is a lot, but it does mean that you can't have a wide battle line, and you may want to consider either the magic banner that lets them march, a Black Coach, or a Vampire Thrall. If you want the mono-Vampire idea, I recommend the Black Coach- it will keep pace with your infantry just fine and allows them to march- not to mention how insanely powerful it can be if you leave it next to your General the first turn or two.

Wight Kings are amazing support characters, and dropping one in each of your Grave Guard units (and fleshing those units out with another 5 each) would make them all quite scary- especially with the Banner of the Barrows. If one of those was a Battle Standard Bearer it just gets nastier.

Hope that helps you finish the list. My top recommendation is to make your units bigger from the start, even though you can finish them in your first magic phase, you can do a lot more (especially with Vanhel's) if you don't need to.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I think your lord should be more then capable of topping up the units, I would take forbiden lore over Dark acoloyte as it gives you access to a full lore.

You might want to put a corpse cart in to help give the GG ASF. If your only going to have one Magic Vamp, I would take either another Vargulf or Konrad (hero Vamp no magic) to help you march, you could take a Black coach but it may weaken your magic phase too much. There is also a banner that lets its unit march (its name escapes me) as if it were within 6" of a vamp which could help. A wight king or 2 is a good idea, the sword of kings will scare your opponents characters.

Maby try upping the numbers in the non GW GG unit i'd try to get 20 (or 19 and a hero in there. if you don't want to buy another box for 4 men you could use a unit filler 40x40 base with something cool on it)

I would also try to get some cavalry into the list.

 

[YourMumRang]

I was thinking that some Black Knights would be an excellent addition. A Coach sounds nice (I initially wanted a caster-horde to power up 2 of them!) and he'll provide a solid flanker along with the Knights.

However, will it hurt my casting? I mean, one caster is a fine line.

Any suggestions for kitting out 2 Wights and the Knights?

EDIT: So Forbidden Lore eh? Since I always have IoN the flexibility might be key for me. Though actually, I think the extra dice is worth more than 2 more spells. He is an IoN machine after all.

 

[Sovereign]

The Black Coach, like all other chariots, can't march and as such makes for a poor flanking unit. It will do well supporting your infantry, though. On average, it'll chew up 1-2 of your dice when within 6" of your general... but remember that every dice it gets is well worth the loss in most situations, especially if you're going to be spamming Invocation of Nehek.


The key to using moderately heavy cavalry like Black Knights is to make sure that a full rank gets to the charge, and that if you plan on charging a unit that won't break immediately that you have enough guys to keep on going. Since an Invocation is only going to put one back in the saddle, I suggest either going with a wide rank (6-7) and barded steeds, or two ranks (with or without barding). Putting a mounted Wight King in the unit will make it very nasty (especially if you give him The Hand of Dust), and if you give them the Banner of the Dead Legion you're very likely to break even a Stubborn opponent with your initial attacks. Just make sure that you never -ever- charge them into an Unbreakable unit that they won't slay in the charge round (don't count on more than 3-4 casualties even on weak-looking things like Flagellants) or a Stubborn unit that outnumbers them. Cavalry are not meant for protracted combat, and you should not put them there without a very good reason.


For a solitary caster lord, it's a tough call between Forbidden Lore and Dark Acolyte... on the one hand, he needs every dice he can get, and on the other he's the only one who could know the spells. If you give him a support Necromancer with Vanhel's Danse Macabre (and probably IoN too...) then Dark Acolyte wins by a long shot.


I would also recommend adding a Doom Wolf to each of your Dire Wolf groups, bringing them up to 7 models and the infamous "dragon trap". It's only an extra 32 points total, and will do a lot to save you from Star Dragons and other nasties.


Once again I'm going to recommend buffing your infantry blocks (Skeletons, Grave Guard) to 20 models each (20 base or 19 + character). The extra rank really makes a difference, and lets your Vampire Lord do more than just Invocation chores.

 

[Ether Dude]

8 PD dedicated to raising should see you through pretty well. Count on 2-3 incantations per turn, so try and avoid high-maintenance units and fights that you have to pump dice into to make sure things come out your way (e.g. blood knights, great weapon grave guard etc). Unfortunately, that means killing whatever it is that you're in the fight with, which in turn points to more vampires.

I'd recommend boosting your core up to full starting strength so your lord has more options to top off/summon new units/make other mischief. Once you have your anvils sorted out, you really need some hammers. Black knights and wight kings will probably do the trick, but you're going to have to play smart and not charge them into the front of anything. That will probably take up most of your 600 points; if possible, a unit of 4-6 wraiths would be golden, perhaps in exchange for one of the grave guard regiments (who have been combined into one unit of 20).

It occurs to me that you really want to be spending your dice raising infantry, since that's what you're optimized to do (and forced to do thanks to the d6 dynamic of the invokation). As such, having a non-ethereal infantry hammer would be really nice...maybe 2 corpse carts with the + raising boost to sit behind beefy great weapon wielding grave guard units. I know I'm contradicting myself here, but there are lots of options for you to explore.

 

[YourMumRang]

Yeah, one the the great things about the Vamp list. When I refer to the Coach as a flanker, I mean flank support for infantry units. I think a Danse-machine Necromancer with Vanhels and the Book would be great support as he can force a few Danses through and we all know Danse wins games. Perhaps mount him on a Cart?

I'm likely going to only be able to afford one Wight King (if that) so one on a mount in the Knights seems the best way to go. What's the best kit? BSB + 5 plus KB sword and T6 armour?

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

Imo the T6 armor is a definate no for wight kings as it makes them WS 1

Wight king - BSB
Barded steed
Sword of Kings, Enchanted shield

That is what I would go for on a wight king, you could drop the ES to save some points. Nightshroud could also work on this guy instead of the ES so he could strike first with 5+ killing blow.

I would then put him in a unit of 6 black knights with a champ and standard with the banner which gives them hatred.

 

[Mirage.]

i disagree with you ducky, as if you have the helm of commandment and the accursed armour with a great weapon your effectively hitting on 2's with str 6, so both I and WS are taken out of the picture, ive seen it be quite effective, although i personally prefer it for my lord

 

[YourMumRang]

Okay, slightly altered the list to bulk up unit sizes and magic. I am not sure whether it's better or worse?

Characters
Lord Foul: Lvl 3 Vampire Lord
Master of the Black Arts - Dark Acolyte - Lord of the Dead
Skull Staff - Helm of Commandment
445pts

Necromancer: 2 Spells
Book of Arkhan - Corpse Cart
180pts

Core:
20 Skeletons: Full Command - Shields - Banner of Endless Nightmare @ 195pts
18 Skeletons: Full Command - Spears - War Banner @ 282pts (6 x 3)
10 Ghouls: Ghast @ 88pts
6 Wolves @ 48pts
6 Wolves @ 48pts

Special:
7 Black Knights: Full Command - Banner of the Dead Legion @ 233pts
24 Grave Guard: Great Weapons - Banner of Hellfire @ 351pts (6 x 4)

Rare:
Black Coach @ 200pts
Vargulf @ 175pts

2245pts

I have lost a unit of GG but bulked the other up considerably. Decided to go for GW mainly for the look. Added the Necro to boost the flexibility of my magic phase.

However, I could drop the Cart and Necro for mounted and foot Wights.

 

[Danceman]

Making your BC into a varghulf saves up 25pts, which in turn allows you to give RB of Strigos on your GG. A much better choice and as you dont have all that many vampires will help the rest of the army to march on. Otherwise, I must congratulate you on making an cool and interesting list.

 

[YourMumRang]

Wow thanks for the compliment! However, I really like the Coach as it gives me some inpact hits and can get powered up and be fun. Any other places I can get the points?

Should I swap a banner for Hellish Vigour somewhere in the list?

 

[Danceman]

That would depend on your deployment. Perhaps you can work around that problem(which might just be a minor one). If you run your BKs with your Vargh it might just work without and the BC cant march anyways. The rest of the army I guess will be within the counts radar as well. Which sort of make my first post rather strange

Dropping a single GG and a wolf you will afford the RSoStrigoi banner on the GG which really win increase their killing power(helm + re-rolls + GWs = ouch). Or just drop a single BK instead but I think I'd go with the former option.

 

[YourMumRang]

Right! I am REALLY liking the list a lot. I do have a few changes to make based upon my own thoughts and your wonderful advice! I'll break it down.

1 - I've swapped Dark Acolyte for Forbidden Lore. To quote Ksum "magic is all about that game-winning spell, not pissy little magic missiles!" and the ability to choose from different Lores means that I have access to these spells and I also gain a LOT of flexibility.

2 - I think that a large Ghoul block will be much better than the large block of Skellies with spears. Ghouls will give me another option and will perform better than Spearmen on the whole. 24 Ghouls costs considerably less than the Skellies w/ spears. Sorted.

3 - However, I wanted the spears because I LOVE the models. So I can make my uberVampbunkerhaussenâ„¢ (I saw Bruno last night, crap btw) a unit of Spearmen. My reasoning (other than cool-looking bad-assery) being that anything charging this unit, if I play right, will be light, fast units like Harpies or Glade Riders and a combination of the Spears and ASF from the Cart means that they can really deter chargers.

4 - I like the idea of Dragon-hlding Wolves so 2 units of 6 w/ Champ for me!

So, here's the list now.

Characters:
Lord Foul: Lvl 3 Vampire Lord
Master of the Black Arts - Forbidden Lore - Lord of the Dead
Skull Staff - Helm of Commandment
450pts

Necromancer: 2 Spells
Book of Arkhan - Corpse Cart w/ Balefire
205pts

Core:
20 Skeletons: Full Command - Shields - Banner of Endless Nightmare @ 205pts
12 Skeleton Warriors: Spears - Champ @ 116pts
6 Dire Wolves: Champ @ 58pts
6 Dire Wolves: Champ @ 58pts
24 Ghouls: Ghast @ 200pts

Special:
24 Grave Guard: Full Command - Great Weapons - Banner of Hellfire @ 351pts
7 Black Knights: Full Command - Banner of the Dead Legion @ 233pts

Rare:
Black Coach @ 200pts
Vargulf @ 175pts

2208pts

Thoughts? Oh, better or worse?

 

[Crab Battle]

Do the wolf units count the doom wolf as one of the 6? Because you need 7 wolves total per unit for the dragontrap. You've got enough points left out of 2250 to add another wolf to each unit, then another two models to your graveguard units would bring it to exactly 2250. Or if you found 2pts somewhere after the extra wolves, you could give your black knights barding.

Or maybe drop the banner of hellfire for strigos/banner of the barrows, if they're cheap enough.

 

[YourMumRang]

Actually, the above list comes to 2250. I forgot to alter the total on the cut/paste. Now, to free up 8 pts....

 

[Ninzie]

Somehow I get that your list is 2251 pts, so no free points?!

 

[YourMumRang]

Yeah, I cocked up the points there. Now, I have a few worries.

- Do I have enough hitters?
- Do I have enough flexibility?
- Do I have enough magic defense? I feel naked without scrolls.
- Should I trade the Coach for some Wraiths?

 

[Danceman]

1. Yes.
2. Yes.
3. Yes, it isnt alot. Just 5 dice. I'd just switch the BoA for a power stone and scroll myself. Makes the Necro able to cast a powerful VDM instead of the bound spells. It burns out, I know but atleast you got a scroll in there.
4. Low magic defence = bad news for wraiths. With Balefire + 5 dd + +1 to dispell and a scroll should be enough.

 

[Crab Battle]

Nobody has the Warbanner!

I'd trade the banner of Endless Nightmare on the skeletons for it. Same cost, same +1CR, but you aren't dependant on maintaining the 4th rank to get it. Just in case.

 

[YourMumRang]

An excellent point Crabby. It's a silly banner. Swapped.

 

[ksum]

You need bats to render the enemy unable to flee from your infrantry/knights.

 

[YourMumRang]

Yeah, think I'll swap a Dog unit for some.

 

[ksum]

Just drop some of the skellies, your lord will be able to summon them fast enough.

And wolves needs to be 7 strong to tie up dragons and greater daemons.