RIP WHFB 2015

[najo]

I like to add to this last point about bubble worlds. We have no idea what that means or if its true. The setting has the Realm of Chaos and places of Chaos matter/Warpstone within it. With the vortex gone and the polar gateways threatened (maybe lost) who knows what effects the Warp would have on the Warhammer world. For all we know the Old World will still exist but have gone through an apolocypse, but there are rifts and zones that erupt in places across the world. These zones are tied to the warp and reality is distorted there or maybe these effects drift now that the winds of magic are out of control. We have no idea. These were effects that occurred in the northern wastes or within the Realm of Chaos itself. Now those effects might be within the old world.

The point is, GW created the Old World we all loved, they are handling the End Times pretty damn well and its awesome so far. They are likely to pull off this overhaul that will be familiar yet terrifyingly new at the same time.

 

[ulrik]

So, maybe this has already been talked about before, but I don't think so. When I was walking down the banks of the frozen river where I live just last night, an idea came to me that might just be where warhammer fantasy is heading. And I think it could turn out quite cool.

The idea goes like this:
Let's say we get six major factions in 9th edition. Let's say Undead is one of them. Maybe each faction will only include , say, ten or so different basic entries. For Undead, maybe that will include a Vampire lord on zombie dragon (with combined stats), Necromancer, Tomb King on Chariot (combined stats) , skeletons, zombies, bone giants, wights on foot and wights on horses.

that way, lots of units seems to be missing.

But, and this is the clever part, they aren't really missing. Because every four months (or something) GW may then release a themed boxed set for each of the six factions, which includes some mix of characters and various units.

these boxed sets will either contain entirely new units and rules, or reintroduce old troop types that are missing from the everpresent basic troops mentioned above.

for undead, maybe one of these upcoming boxed battallion sets (or whatever they will be called) could be a box labeled "ghouls", which will then include a Strigoi vampire lord, a couple of units of ghouls and crypt horrors. Or a box labeled "Khemri" which will (re-)introduce chariots and other Tomb King-stuff. Maybe another box is "Mousillion" , giving us rules for the Blood Dragon bloodline, Blood Knights and so on. maybe then comes the box "Undead vikings" introducing those units and characters. as time goes by, more and more boxes are released, adding even more options to each of the factions.

When building an army, the player simply picks one or more batallions, gets the troops within (choosing freely about any upgrades, magic items, unit sizes and so on) and then rounds the army off by adding freely from the selection of evergreen units and characters (ie the short list including vampire lord on zombiedragon, basic skeletons and so on).

Then, inspired by the concept of Standard from Magic the Gathering, every two years (or something) the oldest batallion box will be removed as another batallion box is being introduced. so there will always only be, say, six or so, different themed batallions that are legal to choose from (though they will always be playable in friendly games).

this way, every faction will be updated frequently, as every four months there will be a new batallion introducing fresh troops. This will ensure a constant fluxx in the metagame. Also, no race will get the axe, because even if they are not part of any of the main factions, they might just show up in various batallion-boxes from time to time. Maybe we will even see the chaos dwarfs show up in one of those boxes. or araby. or bretonnia, or nippon, and so on.

so, what do you think of this? do you think this would be cool? do you think there is any truth in my prediction?

 

[Tiberius5000]

I think this is going to backfire for Games Workshop. I feel that private shops that host games will stick with 8th, or us fans, will make up our own 8.5/9th edition. I have read similar things happened with D&D. I am just curious about the private Warhammer sellers will do with the stock... fire sale? That's the only positive I can see coming from this. The more fluff I read in "End Times" the more weight the rumors carry too.

 

[Sception]

I very much doubt we'll be seeing any tomb kings stuff at all in the new undead.

 

[Tiberius5000]

You never know. They can do a lot of variation with Undead. I love seeing zombies painted up in tons of different Empire colors and such. And if you are right, a lot of players will most likely still use their Tomb Kings in 9th anyways. As much as they can anyways.

 

[ulrik]

I think we might be seing lots of various tomb kings. maybe just not in the core army. the tomb kings will probably stay, mummies are iconic undead creatures after all. and there willcertainly be some kind of elite infantry, like a blend of graveguard and tomb guards. plus skeleton archers for sure, and I bet also some sort of monsterous infantry, (a blend of ushabti and crypt horrors , perhaps). maybe also some of the fancier monsters. I'm guessing a mix of vampire counts and tomb kings. maybe not so much egyptian though. that might come in later, as a battalion, or dogs of war supplement or something.

Almost every edition have had certain trooptypes dissappear, and certain builds made illegal. so, each edition so far have all had a degree of "lets go back and remove that model from that mount since it is no longer legal". I bet the upcoming edition will be no different.

I'd love to see lots of new undead themes. zombie pirates! a return of the famous legion of the damned, featuring rules and units of dead elves, orcs and goblins. maybe even special elven liches. or the von carstein contingent, featuring humans and undead side by side. Thralled elves and orcs under Lahmian leadership. Werewolves could be explored more too. Or maybe the etheral battalion of the Undead Bretonnians, featuring full lances of spirit knights.

 

[Emicrania]

Emicrania, you still haven't answered my question of which versions of Goblin Fanatic are being compared, over what period of time. I do understand that anything appearing on Wikipedia is indisputable fact, but without some key factors (namely model pose, material, and release date) the information can't really be analyzed in any meaningful way. Do you understand how comparing the price of a metal Fanatic from 1983 to the price of a plastic fanatic in 1014 is not the same as comparing a metal Fanatic from 2001 to a plastic fanatic from 2013?

"In the 25 years since the first edition of their flagship game Warhammer Fantasy Battle, the cost of some like-for-like game components have risen steeply. For example, a metal "Goblin Fanatic" miniature has increased from 40p[12] to £2.67,[13] an increase of 567.5%. In early 2008, Playthings magazine reported that retailers selling Games Workshop's products had seen a reduction in sales due to market saturation and "more importantly...the price increases."[14]"

there you go: what,how, when and probably where (UK).
Plus they say themselves that they sell less cause the price risen costantly.

 

[Tiberius5000]

Holy shit that's like 5 bucks Canadian per Goblin Fanatic.


Yeesh

 

[Mad 'At]

Please keep a civil tone @Emicrania.
There is no reason to use font sizes and colours for that purpose, nor for such rude questions. I have removed these elements from your post.

Both you and @Infernal Skull may continue this conversation but do so in a civil manner.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

dude, you are , for what i understood, native speaker English right?

"In the 25 years since the first edition of their flagship game Warhammer Fantasy Battle, the cost of some like-for-like game components have risen steeply. For example, a metal "Goblin Fanatic" miniature has increased from 40p[12] to £2.67,[13] an increase of 567.5%. In early 2008, Playthings magazine reported that retailers selling Games Workshop's products had seen a reduction in sales due to market saturation and "more importantly...the price increases."[14]"

there you go: what,how, when and probably where (UK).
Plus they say themselves that they sell less cause the price risen costantly.

You are right on the money (so to speak) there mate and your reasoning is sound.
However it does come across as a little brash with all the over sized caps etc mate, I know debates can get a little heated but lets keep things friendly.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

I wonder if 9th will basically be LotR SBG at low scale, WotR at big scale. GW are squatting their LotR line now that Hobbit 3 is over and done. It's a pretty streamlined system, though, and I know some folks hate to see it go.

 

[Sception]

there are worse things it could be, SBG in particular was a good system, but I doubt it, given that supposedly the points costs and stat lines are compatible enough for the 8e books to be at least vaguely usable under 9e rules.

 

[Emicrania]

I didn't meant to be harsh,but i gotta be honest, i felt pressed from a witch hunter. Though come out the vampire pride...

 

[benfm]

"In the 25 years since the first edition of their flagship game Warhammer Fantasy Battle, the cost of some like-for-like game components have risen steeply. For example, a metal "Goblin Fanatic" miniature has increased from 40p[12] to £2.67,[13] an increase of 567.5%. In early 2008, Playthings magazine reported that retailers selling Games Workshop's products had seen a reduction in sales due to market saturation and "more importantly...the price increases."[14]"

there you go: what,how, when and probably where (UK).
Plus they say themselves that they sell less cause the price risen costantly.

500% inflation in 25 years is not exactly unrealistic in many consumer product areas. The cost of a bottle of Milk has probably gone up more than that, at least where I live anyway...slightly anecdotal I know...but I don't see your example as particularly alarming or outlandish...

Inflation rate is averaged by some products decreasing substantially and some products increasing substantially. Cost of metal for example increased massively. 25 years ago the price of a computer was probably over $3000 USD. Now you can buy a laptop for like $300 USD. That is all ultimately factored into inflation. Saying that the cost of a miniature should only have increased 50% due to inflation is really just FUD. It has no real bearing on reality for many product categories because it is simply an average across all consumer spending.

 

[Infernal Skull]

"In the 25 years since the first edition of their flagship game Warhammer Fantasy Battle, the cost of some like-for-like game components have risen steeply. For example, a metal "Goblin Fanatic" miniature has increased from 40p[12] to £2.67,[13] an increase of 567.5%. In early 2008, Playthings magazine reported that retailers selling Games Workshop's products had seen a reduction in sales due to market saturation and "more importantly...the price increases."[14]"

there you go: what,how, when and probably where (UK).
Plus they say themselves that they sell less cause the price risen costantly.

(edit: FYI, there have been no less than 3 different batches of metal Fanatics over the years, plus the plastics. Simply saying that they are comparing one metal fanatic to another is meaningless when they could be talking about any of 15+ different individual models and castings. But I see that there is a link indicating the source & specifically which model batch they are citing.)

Okay, now I see:

They are comparing the original Night Goblin Fanatic from 1983, a model so old it that was likely made of lead and from an era when they didn't even have photographs, but rather crude drawings in their catalogs...

to (I can only assume, since the link is down) the most recent pewter/white metal Night Goblin Fanatic, a larger, more detailed, 2-part model.

And this is in the economic world of 2008, as compared to 1983 when GW practically wasn't even the same company (I don't believe they had even started selling Star Trek, Dr. Who, and Dungeons & Dragons miniatures yet).

That's a perfectly reasonable comparison.

 

[Emicrania]

As I said some pages ago, whatever rocks your boat folks. Somebody thinks they are overpriced, somebody don't, somebody likes to have lunch with a cappuccino, somebody finds it disgusting, somebody vote right,somebody vote left, somebody likes to be screw,somebody likes to be screwed.
All in all,do as you please. But the FACT is still that model ( 587%) and the inflation (uk based is 342% from 1980= 34 years) they are not the same. This also means that any of your data about the price inflate of 300% is wrong. Or maybe you actually think that GW changes the prices adjusting them to the inflation?
In this case you are delusional my dear, because, as the sellers themselves says:

" In early 2008, Playthings magazine reported that retailers selling Games Workshop's products had seen a reduction in sales due to market saturation and "more importantly...the price increases."[14]"


Now please stop quoting me and let me leave this horrible post, i wanna keep dreaming about an Apocalypse version of the fantasy in 9th. If you have any more querrels about world economics, miniature basing or how to make my italian grandmother pasta sauce just pm me.

 

[The Sun King]

As the economical rule of thumb goes: Don't worry when the prices go up, worry when they go down.

 

[najo]

The point is we need to compare the same thing. A fanatic that changes size, complexity and materials is not comparable. You have to find the closest like with like, ie number of parts, quality of sculpt, size and materials and then compare that price change to inflation.

 

[Infernal Skull]

As I said some pages ago, whatever rocks your boat folks. Somebody thinks they are overpriced, somebody don't, somebody likes to have lunch with a cappuccino, somebody finds it disgusting, somebody vote right,somebody vote left, somebody likes to be screw,somebody likes to be screwed.
All in all,do as you please. But the FACT is still that model ( 587%) and the inflation (uk based is 342% from 1980= 34 years) they are not the same. This also means that any of your data about the price inflate of 300% is wrong. Or maybe you actually think that GW changes the prices adjusting them to the inflation?
In this case you are delusional my dear, because, as the sellers themselves says:

" In early 2008, Playthings magazine reported that retailers selling Games Workshop's products had seen a reduction in sales due to market saturation and "more importantly...the price increases."[14]"


Now please stop quoting me and let me leave this horrible post, i wanna keep dreaming about an Apocalypse version of the fantasy in 9th. If you have any more querrels about world economics, miniature basing or how to make my italian grandmother pasta sauce just pm me.

You are free to just ignore me and not reply. You really haven't contributed any new information since your initial post, anyway.

On the subject of who is right and who is wrong, I'm not disputing that prices have gone up over the years (the price of everything has gone up), only that the single wikipedia entry you cited does not accurately reflect a "like-for-like" comparison. My point through all of this is that comparing a single lump of lead that's vaguely goblin-shaped to a larger detailed, multi-part sculpt in a different material, even though they represent the same thing in game terms, is hardly comparing apples to apples. That's like comparing the simple Star Wars figures made by Kenner in the '70s to the newest "Black Series" Star Wars figures made by the Hasbro corporation. They're both Star Wars figures, but vastly different in terms of manufacturing process, size, number of parts, and packaging.

But my comparison of the Dwarf and Skaven kits is not inaccurate. You seem locked into the idea that all of GW's prices have increased by 600% based on a single, anecdotal item. I'm making the point that different items have increased by different percentages:

In 2002 a Skaven regiment box, 20 plastic models with weapon options & command was $25 USD ($1.25/ model)
In 2014 a Skaven regiment box, 20 plastic models with weapon options & command was $35 USD ($1.75/ model)
That's a per-model increase of 40% over 12 years. (broken down that's about 3.3% per year)

In 2002 a Dwarf regiment box, 16 plastic models with weapon options & command was $25 USD ($1.56/ model)
In 2014 a Dwarf regiment box, 10 plastic models with weapon options & command was $50 USD ($5.00/ model)
That's a per-model increase of 220% over 12 years. (broken down that's about 18.3% per year)

If we add the Night Goblin into the mix:
40p for the 1983 Night Goblin Fanatic, 1 metal miniature
2.67 GBP for the 2008 Goblin Fanatic, 1 metal miniature
That's a per-model increase of 567% over 25 years. (broken down that's about 22.7% per year)

So if we average the per-year increases together for those 3 items, we get a yearly increase of about 14.8% You can multiply that by any number of years to get the rough overall average increase. Over 12 years it's 177.6% and over 25 years it's 370%.

So if you want an accurate representation of how much GW prices have increased on average, you need to compare the increase for every item over the same length of time and average them. Since not every item has increased by 600% the overall company-wide average will be much lower. But still, using radically different generations of models as the example of how much the price has increased is a fallacious argument. You may as well be comparing a 1920s Ford Model-T to a 2015 Ford Explorer and complaining about why the Explorer is so much more expensive.

 

[Emicrania]

You are free to just ignore me and not reply. You really haven't contributed any new information since your initial post, anyway.

On the subject of who is right and who is wrong, I'm not disputing that prices have gone up over the years (the price of everything has gone up), only that the single wikipedia entry you cited does not accurately reflect a "like-for-like" comparison. My point through all of this is that comparing a single lump of lead that's vaguely goblin-shaped to a larger detailed, multi-part sculpt in a different material, even though they represent the same thing in game terms, is hardly comparing apples to apples. That's like comparing the simple Star Wars figures made by Kenner in the '70s to the newest "Black Series" Star Wars figures made by the Hasbro corporation. They're both Star Wars figures, but vastly different in terms of manufacturing process, size, number of parts, and packaging.

But my comparison of the Dwarf and Skaven kits is not inaccurate. You seem locked into the idea that all of GW's prices have increased by 600% based on a single, anecdotal item. I'm making the point that different items have increased by different percentages:

In 2002 a Skaven regiment box, 20 plastic models with weapon options & command was $25 USD ($1.25/ model)
In 2014 a Skaven regiment box, 20 plastic models with weapon options & command was $35 USD ($1.75/ model)
That's a per-model increase of 40% over 12 years. (broken down that's about 3.3% per year)

In 2002 a Dwarf regiment box, 16 plastic models with weapon options & command was $25 USD ($1.56/ model)
In 2014 a Dwarf regiment box, 10 plastic models with weapon options & command was $50 USD ($5.00/ model)
That's a per-model increase of 220% over 12 years. (broken down that's about 18.3% per year)

If we add the Night Goblin into the mix:
40p for the 1983 Night Goblin Fanatic, 1 metal miniature
2.67 GBP for the 2008 Goblin Fanatic, 1 metal miniature
That's a per-model increase of 567% over 25 years. (broken down that's about 22.7% per year)

So if we average the per-year increases together for those 3 items, we get a yearly increase of about 14.8% You can multiply that by any number of years to get the rough overall average increase. Over 12 years it's 177.6% and over 25 years it's 370%.

So if you want an accurate representation of how much GW prices have increased on average, you need to compare the increase for every item over the same length of time and average them. Since not every item has increased by 600% the overall company-wide average will be much lower. But still, using radically different generations of models as the example of how much the price has increased is a fallacious argument. You may as well be comparing a 1920s Ford Model-T to a 2015 Ford Explorer and complaining about why the Explorer is so much more expensive.

http://warmaster40k.com/2012/07/11/...-the-true-numbers-behind-the-price-increases/


Are you happy now?
Or shall we ask Kirby other data?

 

[Infernal Skull]

http://warmaster40k.com/2012/07/11/...-the-true-numbers-behind-the-price-increases/

Are you happy now?
Or shall we ask Kirby other data?

Yes. It looks like I was right– all of those products have widely varying increases, and he says that the average of the items he looked at is 45% over 8 years (that's 5.6% per year, much less than the 22.7% per year that a 567% increase over 25 years works out to be.)

So, thank you for helping me prove my point. This article basically illustrates what I've been saying all along about the varying degree of price increases. The article also points out that along with the price, the quality has also increased. If something costs more to produce, its price goes up. If something increases in quality, its price goes up. If something costs more to produce AND increases in quality, then its price goes up MORE, which is what we're seeing with GW miniatures.

And what do you mean by "ask Kirby other data?" You don't think Tom Kirby wrote that article, do you?

 

[najo]

Yes. It looks like I was right– all of those products have widely varying increases, and he says that the average of the items he looked at is 45% over 8 years (that's 5.6% per year, much less than the 22.7% per year that a 567% increase over 25 years works out to be.)

So, thank you for helping me prove my point. This article basically illustrates what I've been saying all along about the varying degree of price increases. The article also points out that along with the price, the quality has also increased. If something costs more to produce, its price goes up. If something increases in quality, its price goes up. If something costs more to produce AND increases in quality, then its price goes up MORE, which is what we're seeing with GW miniatures.

And what do you mean by "ask Kirby other data?" You don't think Tom Kirby wrote that article, do you?

On top of that, the comments below the article talk about the newer model and kits having greater value because of plastic being easier to work with and convert, more bitz, the starters have like 3 times the models etc. That article actually backs many of the points Infernal Skull and myself have made. Doesn't mean that there hasn't been some extreme price increases but the fanatic is likely the most extreme one and its not taking everything in to context.

 

[Emicrania]

"As we go along, keep in mind that the average inflation for the US has been roughly 16% over the last eight years."

There is an half glass of water on the table. The majority of the WH community see that the glass is getting more and more empity. A smaller proportion see that the evaporation effect is normal on all glasses of water.
You keep on seeing what you want, as always as on any kind of ideology. Even in front of the evidence:

- The inflation is per year, if you have any notion of mathematics and economy and history you might wanna agree, this means 3*2 is not 6, inflation wise.
EXAMPLE:

Venezuela has a current inflation rate of 57.30%. The country has been suffering from inflation for many years (see chart below). During the period from 1973 to 2014, it’s been as high as 115.18% and as low as 3.22%. The annual rate has exceeded 100% during two episodes. The first occurred in June 1989 when it hit 103.29%. The second time, inflation remained above 100% for seven months from July 1996 (108.13%) to January 1997 (103.24%). Currently, it’s on the rise again and many economists believe it could breech the century mark once again and hyperinflation will ensue. What’s particularly disturbing for the citizens of Venezuela is that, after the mid 1980s, the annual inflation rate has been above 20% more often than not (see red dotted line in the graph).


- Taking the extreme poins of those models that raised the most and those who raised the least, you still have an increase that UNPROPORTIONED to the inflation. If you @Infernal Skull ,or you @najo , got an higher salary during the last years,is a personal case. When we talk about inflation and price, we talk about GENERAL SALARY and the rest of the world. You and me are important only this much.

- I never advocated that GW makes shit models ( However the 99% of the community feels about FINECAST it should ring some bells to the sleeping beauty), my point is that the prices are going down the drain, impacting the community and the possibility of new people playing. Once people and shops would borrow their own models and they would make a micromarket of used stuff. Now there are no reseller ,because Daddy GW demand an EVERINCREASING profit (due the fact they have a share on the market, which frankly, is not my ***** problem). There are fewer and fewer new players and GW shops organize NOTHING to makes you understand how to be a better gamer, I lived close to 5 different GW shops in 3 country in the last years and they are all the same: "yes you can try,no you can't play with your miniature from another brand and no,we dont explain rules, is more a basic you know, to start (to sell)."

- For the Kirby joke, man I'm sorry, you are a great painter and your blog helped me a lot, but is time you upgrade your sense of humor from the orginal beta version....

- In all the forum and all the other forums ( Dakkadakka, Warseer, Bugmans Brewery, Reddit, you name it) there are the same discussion, where there are some hard core lover such yourselves that defend the GW flag in rain and sun,in poverty and richness,till death (economical probably) do you part. For the rest of the world...well is pretty funny, in WHICHEVER LANGUAGE, you write GW prices ,google suggestion is the same " GW prices too high". An example of the language of my understanding are:

Google ricerca: Prezzi Games Workshop "troppo alti":

http://astropate.blogspot.se/2013/06/la-segretezza-della-games-workshop.html

Här kommer en man som säger hur fan bra är INVESTERA på GW , Cash is King, för de som äger, självklart:

https://snobollsinvestering.wordpress.com/tag/games-workshop/

El problema de los precios entre Europa y la zona Euro:

http://www.cargad.com/index.php/201...mpio-la-hegemonia-de-precios-en-la-zona-euro/

Plus the ridicolous amount of article and blogger in english from UK,Australia and USA that says the same thing:

http://www.miniwargaming.com/content/games-workshop-2012-price-increase-

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/90/422484.page (where a guy from Australia points out :If people want to know the true insanity of GW's prices, i'll give you a strong explaination of detail.

I'm a Australian (proud of it) and i'm a wargamer. It is extremely hard to justify the prices here in the land down under. First, lets take a look at the current AUD dollar to the two biggest wargamer countries in the world. This vaules are from the 27/1/2012

British Pound is worth $0.68 AUD
United States dollar is worth $1.06 AUD

So lets see how much in each country would a box of... oh... Vampire Count Blood Knights go for from the GW's main website.


British price of the unit - $61.50 GBP, equaling $90.99 AUD
US price of the unit - $99.00 USD, equaling $93.26 AUD
Australian price of the unit - $165.00 AUD!

So from shipping from england / united states... you pay a additional 74.01 / 71.74 dollars. No tax nor shipping costs should add such a massive price increase over other countries. How would other countries wargamers cope if they had to buy at AUD prices?

England would have to pay 111.52 GBP
The US would pay 175.15 USD (i'll like to see US sales of this item if they were charged at this price)

This is pretty much price fixing and i'm amazed GW isn't watched and reported by the market watchdog. How do they get away with it? Nintendo did price fixing in the past in 2002, towards europe, and were fined 149 Million euros for price fixing. "

http://www.beastsofwar.com/warhammer-40k/games-workshop-thinking/

and so on and on and on and on and on and on from all over the world, all over the web.


PLUS, if the prices where so normal and everything was ok,why everyone brag about something doesn't exist? or you are part of the group of enlighted people out there?

NOBODY is sayn gw sucks Nagash D++K, but they price are insane, compared to anything, to anywhere,to anytime.
You wanna see it? good, You don't, it's all the same.
Just again PLEASE STOP FUCKING AROUND WITH NUMBERS.
As per se, Games Workshop is a an industry that sells for a profit,not for make you or me happy. Plus old customer can buy just as mich. IF they paint what they play. Of course.

 

[The Sun King]

@Emicrania Please take your tone down a notch.

 

[Emicrania]

Ok,is a pointless discussion in any case.
However Is not me that started it anyway.