RIP WHFB 2015
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now this i could totally see happen, tidying up 8th rules, allowing "old" largescale games, allowing end times snd adding a new current, timeline wise, post apocalypse skirmish'esk game to get new players in on a budget. Still allowing large scale and end times battles would render no units obsolete, allow new players in without having to use all their money but with the ability to expand to endtimes and/or old school games.Sounds like over reactions of epic proportions on warseer...reading through all the rumors 8th army books are compatible with 9th.
The only people who should be raging are those with Lizards, Dark Elf monsters, Tomb Kings and maybe Dwarves and Ogres...Vampire Counts are looking pretty good
Quote from fait
As for how it interacts with the current rules.
9th edition takes place after the sundering that brought about from the End Times.
So for the purposes of compatibility, you can use your 8th edition hardback book, representing a section of the culture that hasn't been horrifically changed by the End Times (Recognizing it will have the same drawbacks of using a dated book that are experienced elsewhere).
You can use End Times rules/concepts, representing a section that is still being torn apart.
You can use the new, post-end times rules to represent what is "current."
All the books (again, with the caveat that older books may not be optimal for the new core rules [but truthfully the core rules aren't changing wildly, like 5th to 6th edition 40k, really more of a tidied up 8th edition with a brand new setting]) are designed to be compatible.
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A lot of these rumours seem contradictory though. "No major changes" to 9th...yet a move towards round bases? "8th edition books will be compatible"...yet major factions are getting axed and existing factions hacked down to nothingness. "No major changes" to various factions, yet non-core units are moved to core in a great number of them.
Quite honestly, this sounds like a massive amount of bullshit shoveled in to fill holes in an otherwise semi-believable rumour.
Quite honestly, this sounds like a massive amount of bullshit shoveled in to fill holes in an otherwise semi-believable rumour.
Like the
Welp that pretty much invalidates my son's two armies. Dwarves and Ogres. :grave:
Sounds like over reactions of epic proportions on warseer...reading through all the rumors 8th army books are compatible with 9th.
The only people who should be raging are those with Lizards, Dark Elf monsters, Tomb Kings and maybe Dwarves and Ogres...Vampire Counts are looking pretty good
Welp that pretty much invalidates my son's two armies. Dwarves and Ogres. :grave:
A couple things say to me these rumors aren't true.
1) base changes but can still rank up. Circle bases and current bases do not work together well. It's messy, even with LotR style trays. Plus they wouldn't do something that causes us to damage our current miniatures.
2) the mention of using formations like shield wall. Warhammer has sought to simplify movement rules for new players. Simpler the better. Teaching fantasy movement is a sticking point and will either stay at the current level of complexity or get easier, not harder.
3) compatibility with end times but new factions too. This seems contradictory. The minute you squat someone's army or parts of it, you will have up roars and start fracturing the player base as people who love something quit. They have to carefully navigate these waters by changing the setting and game without alienating the current players. If the new factions over complicate the offerings further, this only makes that harder. The new factions would have to incorporate the old ones and allow players to use their current armies. Only models they can really get rid of would be one no one plays that aren't in plastic yet.
4) the whole limited release thing is a maybe. Plastic molds are expensive. Making chill exclusive that are only avails for short periods of time has some positives. It keeps the game evolving and changing with every release, it combats 3d printing and piracy, it counter's discounters which boosts the revenue stream of the game. But it also creates potential exhaustion in the customer base and if done poorly feels like a nonstop money grab. Now, honestly, if you only had one or two new things released per year for your main army and each release was something totally cool, optional and expanded the way your army plays, that is pretty cool. So, this statement is a possibility. But regaining their investment in each mold means to maximize the sales for each unit. So. I'm not sure that is done this way.
5) they want to keep us as a customer base to build off of. Killing the game doesn't do that. They lose all the loyal customers who are buying up all the end times stuff. That's counter productive. Whatever 9th is, it will have to speak to the majority of us while attracting new players.
My prediction, a skirmish game that scales up to regimental of any size. Same bases. New factions that combine the armies like they are in end times. Phasing out of old kits that don't sell or the redundant kits in the alliances. A setting where the world is being wracked by the realm of chaos, allowing places to be tied to the warp and story wise brings conflicting armies of different eras together. Sort of like the eye of terror in 40k.
I also have a crazy hunch skaven and lizardmen get merged dark crystal style. Just feeling it. As above, so below sort of thing.
Possible factions in new game:
1) empire ascended - this becomes the holy super knights. Empire, bretonnia and dwarfs. There is already a long history between these three armies.
2) undead legion - vampires and tomb kings
3) legions of chaos - WOC, doc, bm
4) elven host - I predict tyrion comes back as the bloodied handed god with teclis reborn as incarnate of light. How this affects malekith, not sure, but elves have got to be getting an avatar since its a daemon.
5) ogres/orcs & goblins - these two armies actually go together fairly naturally. Not much to say.
6) skaven/lizardmen - turns out both races part of the old ones plans. Hence the connection with the twin tails, long connected history, both have celestial prophecies and arcane technology beyond their intelligence. They are also both animals altered into humanoid form.
Just my two cents.
1) base changes but can still rank up. Circle bases and current bases do not work together well. It's messy, even with LotR style trays. Plus they wouldn't do something that causes us to damage our current miniatures.
2) the mention of using formations like shield wall. Warhammer has sought to simplify movement rules for new players. Simpler the better. Teaching fantasy movement is a sticking point and will either stay at the current level of complexity or get easier, not harder.
3) compatibility with end times but new factions too. This seems contradictory. The minute you squat someone's army or parts of it, you will have up roars and start fracturing the player base as people who love something quit. They have to carefully navigate these waters by changing the setting and game without alienating the current players. If the new factions over complicate the offerings further, this only makes that harder. The new factions would have to incorporate the old ones and allow players to use their current armies. Only models they can really get rid of would be one no one plays that aren't in plastic yet.
4) the whole limited release thing is a maybe. Plastic molds are expensive. Making chill exclusive that are only avails for short periods of time has some positives. It keeps the game evolving and changing with every release, it combats 3d printing and piracy, it counter's discounters which boosts the revenue stream of the game. But it also creates potential exhaustion in the customer base and if done poorly feels like a nonstop money grab. Now, honestly, if you only had one or two new things released per year for your main army and each release was something totally cool, optional and expanded the way your army plays, that is pretty cool. So, this statement is a possibility. But regaining their investment in each mold means to maximize the sales for each unit. So. I'm not sure that is done this way.
5) they want to keep us as a customer base to build off of. Killing the game doesn't do that. They lose all the loyal customers who are buying up all the end times stuff. That's counter productive. Whatever 9th is, it will have to speak to the majority of us while attracting new players.
My prediction, a skirmish game that scales up to regimental of any size. Same bases. New factions that combine the armies like they are in end times. Phasing out of old kits that don't sell or the redundant kits in the alliances. A setting where the world is being wracked by the realm of chaos, allowing places to be tied to the warp and story wise brings conflicting armies of different eras together. Sort of like the eye of terror in 40k.
I also have a crazy hunch skaven and lizardmen get merged dark crystal style. Just feeling it. As above, so below sort of thing.
Possible factions in new game:
1) empire ascended - this becomes the holy super knights. Empire, bretonnia and dwarfs. There is already a long history between these three armies.
2) undead legion - vampires and tomb kings
3) legions of chaos - WOC, doc, bm
4) elven host - I predict tyrion comes back as the bloodied handed god with teclis reborn as incarnate of light. How this affects malekith, not sure, but elves have got to be getting an avatar since its a daemon.
5) ogres/orcs & goblins - these two armies actually go together fairly naturally. Not much to say.
6) skaven/lizardmen - turns out both races part of the old ones plans. Hence the connection with the twin tails, long connected history, both have celestial prophecies and arcane technology beyond their intelligence. They are also both animals altered into humanoid form.
Just my two cents.
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This is on Bell of lost souls, just to add to the rumor mill (http://www.belloflostsouls.net/2015/01/breaking-wfb-9th-explodes.html):
"from the horse mouth
factions :
1) Chaos : Demons + Beasts + Mortals
2) Elves
3) Empire
4) Undead
5) Orcs and Goblins
6) Skavens
Lizards are gone in space.
Dwarves survivors join the empire with the ogres.
1) Chaos core : Warriors of chaos/chariot/Hounds
Demons figs will be kept as they are usable in 40k
Bye bye marauders, ungors, centigors, razorgor etc
2) Elves core : spearmen/archers/cavalry on horse
No more xbows
the 3 elves will blend in one faction
dark elves monsters are gone : cold ones, hydra
3) Empire core: Hallberds/Handgun/Canon
Some dwarves survivors and ogres are included
Imperial and bretonnian knights are merged
4) Undead core : Skeletons/Ghouls/Spirit host
bye bye bone giant, scorpion sphinx, chariots and everything too much egyptian
5) Orcs and goblins core : Goblins/Orcs/Black orcs
no real change for them
6) Skaven core : Clanrats/Plague rats/Rat ogres
no real change for them too"
"from the horse mouth
factions :
1) Chaos : Demons + Beasts + Mortals
2) Elves
3) Empire
4) Undead
5) Orcs and Goblins
6) Skavens
Lizards are gone in space.
Dwarves survivors join the empire with the ogres.
1) Chaos core : Warriors of chaos/chariot/Hounds
Demons figs will be kept as they are usable in 40k
Bye bye marauders, ungors, centigors, razorgor etc
2) Elves core : spearmen/archers/cavalry on horse
No more xbows
the 3 elves will blend in one faction
dark elves monsters are gone : cold ones, hydra
3) Empire core: Hallberds/Handgun/Canon
Some dwarves survivors and ogres are included
Imperial and bretonnian knights are merged
4) Undead core : Skeletons/Ghouls/Spirit host
bye bye bone giant, scorpion sphinx, chariots and everything too much egyptian
5) Orcs and goblins core : Goblins/Orcs/Black orcs
no real change for them
6) Skaven core : Clanrats/Plague rats/Rat ogres
no real change for them too"
@najo thank you for making some good sensible counters to the rumours.
@HERO if the rumours of a new anti-chaos army are true, surely they would be the best place for the lizardmen to be placed with.
All it would need is some fluff about hidden plaques from the old ones being found amongst the ruins of say Itza (after its destroyed) or any other temple City after the exodus machines are activated. Ordering them to support and fight along with this new race.
As to me, anti-chaos , says Old Ones.
@HERO if the rumours of a new anti-chaos army are true, surely they would be the best place for the lizardmen to be placed with.
All it would need is some fluff about hidden plaques from the old ones being found amongst the ruins of say Itza (after its destroyed) or any other temple City after the exodus machines are activated. Ordering them to support and fight along with this new race.
As to me, anti-chaos , says Old Ones.
I don't see how you arrived at this conclusion. If anything, it would have the opposite effect. By making limited runs of models, they would just be encouraging re-casters and 3D printers to have them available for those who missed out on them. And you can be sure there will be people who will happily pay a fraction of the cost for a knock-off that's of similar quality.
Also, the only way it will combat discounters is if they're online/direct order only. If they're stocking them in-store, they have to be made available to other retailers due to competition laws.
Whenever something is limited, it creates an 'I must buy this before its gone effect'. The customer base would not reliably be able to get it from secondarysecondary or illegal sources and although there would still be some of that occuring, most people would just buy near release and be less likely to sell off rare models. This would drive prices up on those models. That mixed with GW making models easier to legally protect, makes alternatives harder to use or produce. The net effect is models selling closer to retail and then retaining value when they are sold.
A prime example are boxes of magic. These use to go for nearly wholesale at release, which hurts the supply chain. Wizards of the Coast started restricting amounts produced instead of giving everyone unlimited amounts at release, and box prices went up since suppliers had allocations to work with.
There is of course a difference with cards vs miniatures because of the indivudual cost and hobby aspects a model requires, but limited run models in the past have retained their value or gone up even, so who knows what th all the time would do.
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Vampire Thrall
I suspect that these "limited edition" rumours will relate to items sold in stores. Retailers are already forced to carry certain combinations of stock, much of which just sits on shelves. I think that they're trying to rebuild their business model to limit the amount of stale stock sitting on shelves. That means fewer base factions with fewer numbers of starter boxes, combined with a "flavour of the month" kit that people will be interested in buying.
Basically, instead of pushing one army at a time every 5 years, they'll be pushing new units for all the armies at once, to keep everyone engaged. This way you don't end up with someone like Tomb Kings languishing for a decade after a mediocre release stunts their competitiveness. If TK are doing shit you just give them some sort of balls-insane-awesome TG chariot that's T5 with KB impact hits or something.
However I doubt that they'll do truly limited edition runs of models. I assume that things will simply go to online-only after a short period of time, forcing people to buy direct from them (with higher returns) for anything older they might want.
This way retailers are happy (which GW knows are the folks who drive their sales), as they get cool new high-volume purchases. But it also increases GW's bottom line by forcing people to buy direct-only for a substantial amount of their purchases.
Basically, instead of pushing one army at a time every 5 years, they'll be pushing new units for all the armies at once, to keep everyone engaged. This way you don't end up with someone like Tomb Kings languishing for a decade after a mediocre release stunts their competitiveness. If TK are doing shit you just give them some sort of balls-insane-awesome TG chariot that's T5 with KB impact hits or something.
However I doubt that they'll do truly limited edition runs of models. I assume that things will simply go to online-only after a short period of time, forcing people to buy direct from them (with higher returns) for anything older they might want.
This way retailers are happy (which GW knows are the folks who drive their sales), as they get cool new high-volume purchases. But it also increases GW's bottom line by forcing people to buy direct-only for a substantial amount of their purchases.
One thing that I have learned from reading rumors like this about Warhammer over the years is that most of the time it is a strange mix of true information gained and twisted interpretation of hints learned. I figure that when it is all said and done most of the rumors heard the last couple of days will have small amounts proven correct and large amounts in the ball park so to say.
I can totally see that there will be an army reduction with some forces (dwarves/ogres/empire/brets) messed together, while others stay stand alone for the most part in efforts to reduce complexity and cost for a new comer on the surface. Moving the time line up and setting up a skirmish level game with cool shiny new models that do not look like anything else will potently bring in more players that have never played or left the game.
The one thing I do not like, whole bubble universe idea. Hopefully an interpretation of what was said/seen and turns out to be possible a reference to pockets of resistance that are left after the final catastrophe.
And I wonder if the limited release models are possible setting up an initial set of models being made with the option to manufacture more if they do well and sale out or move on if not.
Finally I must say that if 9th edition fluff is as well written as the end of times stuff, I’m on board.
Just ramblings of an employee wasting the last hour of work trying to come to terms with the possible world shattering events unfolding before him.
I can totally see that there will be an army reduction with some forces (dwarves/ogres/empire/brets) messed together, while others stay stand alone for the most part in efforts to reduce complexity and cost for a new comer on the surface. Moving the time line up and setting up a skirmish level game with cool shiny new models that do not look like anything else will potently bring in more players that have never played or left the game.
The one thing I do not like, whole bubble universe idea. Hopefully an interpretation of what was said/seen and turns out to be possible a reference to pockets of resistance that are left after the final catastrophe.
And I wonder if the limited release models are possible setting up an initial set of models being made with the option to manufacture more if they do well and sale out or move on if not.
Finally I must say that if 9th edition fluff is as well written as the end of times stuff, I’m on board.
Just ramblings of an employee wasting the last hour of work trying to come to terms with the possible world shattering events unfolding before him.
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No disrespect Najo but you are simply stating your opinion and nothing else. My opinion is different and I can see GW easily doing a "F you" to all of us and creating something that THEY believe will market their product and grow their business. There might be something to it. 40K sales at least 3 to 1 better than Fantasy. But I will go on the record and state right now that I won't play a "Fantasy" version of 40k.
I'm really looking forward to 9th edition. As a veteran player I would enjoy that they switched it up
I'm really looking forward to 9th edition. As a veteran player I would enjoy that they switched it up
You also play 40K don't you? A little easier to stomach if you enjoy the other game.
I love the fact that something is happening within the game. It has gotten really really old to hear about the new everchosen, because you know nothing will change anyways. We've gone back and forth between herohammer and large units. The latter approach probably backfired on GW. To simply start playing you need a massive amount of models, as many play 2400-3000 point games these days. Indeed, that is why I quit WHFB. Put simply, too many models to paint up, or rather, too many of the same models to paint up.
I like to put a lot of time into building and painting, and being able to actually do this on a regular basis and still play the game is awesome news for me. Sure, there probably be large regiments but yeah.
This is the reason, I think, why WHFB is facing this type of change. Price of entry has reached the point where it is economically non-viable for new players, and only the veterans who already own all the models required, thus buy very little, keep playing. While this is nice for the experienced players, it is very bad for retaining new players and actually make money.
Furthermore, it will refresh the current system, which I also welcome. Also, I am quite happy to see White Dwarfs suppliments being added as well.
In a nutshell, it seems GW are setting themselves up to more easily make changes, be it models/lore/rules, and reduce the hefty cost to get into the hobby. Before I see the rules or what these factions are, I'll reserve judgement. My initial response though is optimistic.
I like to put a lot of time into building and painting, and being able to actually do this on a regular basis and still play the game is awesome news for me. Sure, there probably be large regiments but yeah.
This is the reason, I think, why WHFB is facing this type of change. Price of entry has reached the point where it is economically non-viable for new players, and only the veterans who already own all the models required, thus buy very little, keep playing. While this is nice for the experienced players, it is very bad for retaining new players and actually make money.
Furthermore, it will refresh the current system, which I also welcome. Also, I am quite happy to see White Dwarfs suppliments being added as well.
In a nutshell, it seems GW are setting themselves up to more easily make changes, be it models/lore/rules, and reduce the hefty cost to get into the hobby. Before I see the rules or what these factions are, I'll reserve judgement. My initial response though is optimistic.
There are many clues to 9th edition already out there. One of the obvious ones come from the miniature packaging. Because print runs and costs of production are prohibited to maintain profit margins, we are looking at 9th ed product right now.
1) they have removed the army/faction from the box
2) the new models are all complicated, expensive molds. Everything they are relating right now is intended for 9th. The bases are still square.
3) the rules in the instructions are compatible with 9th. That will be the format for everything here forward.
So, from models coming out right now, we know 9th is keeping the profile, the square base, similar special rules.
Then from my experience in the industry and with business:
1) they are not going to alienate the majority of existing customer base. They will take calculated risks, but making us all start from zero is not going to happen. Even with fantasy having growth issues, it still out selling its competitors. The problem is it's not attracting new blood as fast as 40k and warmahordes. But they won't flush all of us, that would kill the game and it's built in advocates.
2) they will not make players damage models by changing bases. That would cause a revolt.
3) the game needs to be easier to teach and learn. Movement rules will get simpler not more complex. I highly doubt we will see special formations rules. Fantasy regiments reforming is complex enough for the game's scale. You need square bases for that. If anything, scaling from warband skirmisher level to armies of any points is what is coming. Mordheim did skirmish warbands on square bases and was very popular. Something similar without the extra campaign rules would be popular.
I think the most accurate parts of the rumors is the limited, regular releases and the pockets of reality from the end times damaging the world. They will phase out redundant or dead models and streamline the products in some manner too. There will be no squatting as that leads to revolt.
Apparently there are a Screaming Bell and Plague Furnace on round bases.
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205550&d=1420838191
http://www.warseer.com/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=205550&d=1420838191
Infernal Skull
Wight King
I was just about to post that round based Screaming Bell pic. So, yeah, round bases aren't unfounded.
But the argument about now needing too many models to play is ludicrous. It results from lowered point costs of models and higher point games. The standard used to be 2000, now it's 2400- 2500. If so many people think that's too many models, then their community should play 1000 or 1500 point games. You can still get in a few units monsters and characters at that size.
Warhammer is not a game that people can just buy a tournament-ready, competitive army for. You start small with a couple small units and a general. Then work up to larger forces. Because that's the hobby of miniatures wargaming.
If painting 100 models is too much, then play smaller. Play Mordheim skirmish rules with the full WFB range or something. The game doesn't have to START at 3000 point lists. It can't start at 3000 because getting there requires time, work, and patience.
But the argument about now needing too many models to play is ludicrous. It results from lowered point costs of models and higher point games. The standard used to be 2000, now it's 2400- 2500. If so many people think that's too many models, then their community should play 1000 or 1500 point games. You can still get in a few units monsters and characters at that size.
Warhammer is not a game that people can just buy a tournament-ready, competitive army for. You start small with a couple small units and a general. Then work up to larger forces. Because that's the hobby of miniatures wargaming.
If painting 100 models is too much, then play smaller. Play Mordheim skirmish rules with the full WFB range or something. The game doesn't have to START at 3000 point lists. It can't start at 3000 because getting there requires time, work, and patience.
Just about to post that too, I really don't like the idea of round bases, it's gonna detract from the game in my opinion.
Also on the warhammer apps description of thanquol, they talk of the final siege of the dwarfen holds, maybe they are getting merged with men.
