RIP WHFB 2015

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As for the rest, if you don't like new rules…… ignore them.

Its not as simple as that, you have to play what is played in your area if you want a game. If the majority of your area either quit or play 9th, those are your only options as well.

With 8th and existing armies losing support when 9th launches, more and more players will be left with only those 2 choices as time goes on.
 
The whole debate about rules is not that important really. The reason is quite simple: If GW keeps putting out beautiful models like they do people will keep buying.

With these conservative discussions I become rather nostalgic and think back to "the good old days" in 4th and 5th... and trust me guys the rules and models were crap back then.
 
I was just about to post that round based Screaming Bell pic. So, yeah, round bases aren't unfounded.

But the argument about now needing too many models to play is ludicrous. It results from lowered point costs of models and higher point games. The standard used to be 2000, now it's 2400- 2500. If so many people think that's too many models, then their community should play 1000 or 1500 point games. You can still get in a few units monsters and characters at that size.

Warhammer is not a game that people can just buy a tournament-ready, competitive army for. You start small with a couple small units and a general. Then work up to larger forces. Because that's the hobby of miniatures wargaming.

If painting 100 models is too much, then play smaller. Play Mordheim skirmish rules with the full WFB range or something. The game doesn't have to START at 3000 point lists. It can't start at 3000 because getting there requires time, work, and patience.

Let's say I am a new player with at best 1000 points of army. Well I've got it all put together and partially painted and would like to play the game before dumping another small fortune into the hobby.

So I go to a gw and everyone has 2.5k - 3k point lists. Well Crap I'm not even sure I actually want to play this game and I guess I'm not going to find out *dumps hobby*

The barrier for entry shouldn't be that I need friends to start out small with. If the standard for 90% of players is 2500 points then that should be a fairly easy number to reach. I'm not saying it should be set up so that I have everything I could want at that level. But 1000 points of zombies skeletons ghouls and whatever model you may use as characters is absolutely not a feasible starting point anymore.
 
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A friend of mine showed me that skaven picture with the war machines on round bases, pretty crazy. Guess we wait and see.

On the point of army sizes, in the past, players use to adjust point values to their opponent more and you played with fewer figures and smaller armies anyways. Over the years, armies have grown in points and model count and the game has encouraged trend. That trend has now made the distance between starting the game and playing with active players harder to bridge, and GW is adjusting the game to take that into account.
 
I completely agree with the start up cost and game sizes are getting too big, but why does that mean, round bases and destroying all the background and the world we know and love?

A screaming bell/plague furnace on a round base is fairly significant, as these are models designed with sitting in and ranking up inside units.
I maybe reading too much into this, but that suggests radically changing the core rules.

Like najo said its a wait and see scenario, but I'm not liking it so far :(
 
The reason start up costs have escalated so much is two fold.

1) As said army points values have increased and signficant numbers of units have had their points costs reduced, meaning more models in a startup army.

2) Price of figures. Without getting into an anti GW thing this is an important element in startup cost. Over the last 20 years uk figure prices from GW have increased around 300%, while inflation has only incresed around 50%. That means if you had £100 to spend on figures 20 years ago, it would now need to be £400, but through inflation is only £150. Or to put another way, relative to income it now costs 3 times as much for the same number of figres today as it did 20 years ago.
 
Yeah, I've been begging for a manageable and meaningful introductory play experience via some skirmish rules with real focus and support rather than slapped together as an untested afterthought.

But I see no reason why that had to accompany:

- Ditching the setting in favor of one that seems to have no potential narrative underpinning behind its battles apart from "your bubbles touched... now FIGHT"

- Dropping all future support for all existing factions. There simply is no understating the ill will this will engender, or how hard it will be to convince new players to invest hundreds of dollars and hundreds of hobby hours into a game that will be known across the internet for dumping it's player base like a sack of rotten potatoes.

- Future support for new factions limited to limited edition runs of models and rules, such that by the time you finish painting a new unit it will be gone and forgotten from the game forever, making the giant middle finger to players not just a consequence of he changeover, but the standard default policy from now on

- rebasing everything to rounds, but then using WotR style rectangular trays anyway, making the whole game just physically super awkward. Seriously, did any of you actually play WotR? I did. Neat system, but those trays were just super annoying, an obvious cludge to try and make the same models from a round based skirmish game work in a regimental game. But that was an unavoidable consequence of making regiment game rules for an existing round based skirmish system. To do so intentionally, as the game default, is just super super dumb, even if they weren't trying to market this new game as an update to an old game that already used square bases.


To be clear, I do not actually believe the rumors in their current form. But, in the bizarre, unlikely event that they are accurate, then I'll have a hard time justifying any continued participation in the game, myself.
 
I think the idea of the trays for round bases is so they can be used with existing square based regiments. We might be seeing 2 ways to play: Small skirmish w/ round bases and large scale square blocks. If you want to upgrade your skirmish army to a Warhammer army, you put them in trays.

There are already "unbased" single models in the game (casket, war machines, steam tank). So large models on round bases will likely fall into that category. Charging a block of infantry into a dragon on a round base is no different than charging it against a cannon. Problem is, mixed bases in an army always looks like crap.
 
Mixed bases in an army do look bad. Also, round bases in trays don't fit the same area as square bases ranked up. It's a cludgy way to do things. Square bases can skirmish fine, but rounds just do not rank up, and to base a game that intends to do both on round bases is a bad choice that just makes things needlessly awkward.
 
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Let's say I am a new player with at best 1000 points of army. Well I've got it all put together and partially painted and would like to play the game before dumping another small fortune into the hobby.

So I go to a gw and everyone has 2.5k - 3k point lists. Well Crap I'm not even sure I actually want to play this game and I guess I'm not going to find out *dumps hobby*

The barrier for entry shouldn't be that I need friends to start out small with. If the standard for 90% of players is 2500 points then that should be a fairly easy number to reach. I'm not saying it should be set up so that I have everything I could want at that level. But 1000 points of zombies skeletons ghouls and whatever model you may use as characters is absolutely not a feasible starting point anymore.


Thing is, if anyone cared about their community, or if the store was run properly, someone would take a break from their hardcore tournament training games to scale down their army and play a smaller game to help new players. Or hobbyists/ staff would offer advice on the direction the new player should be going, or there would be a "beginner's night" where the games were smaller scale. Or the shop could let the player use elements from the store army to fill out their force. That's how it worked back when Warhammer was flourishing.

When I was working in retail, we made no excuses for the fact that a miniatures game is a lot of work and dedication, but rewarding if it's something that you enjoy and want to do. And that, frankly, it's not for everyone.

Playing small games and watching others play larger games and talking about the game will definitely give someone a pretty solid idea of how the game works and if it's something they'll enjoy. That's why demo games are a couple units and last 15 minutes with a lengthy discussion afterward, rather than directing someone through a 6-turn 2500 point, swiss-comped game with full magic rules and a death clock timer. That shit comes later if they want to go that route.
 
Mixed bases in an army does look like crap. Also, round bases in trays don't fit the same area as square bases ranked up. It's a cludgy way to do things. Square bases can skirmish fine, but rounds just do not rank up, and to base a game that intends to do both on round bases is a bad choice that just makes things needlessly awkward.
Yup.
 
Like the end times rumors, the truth has to be somewhere in between. A lot of the forums erupted when the initial combined books rumors happened, and look at how well the books and the rules, mostly, have been received.

I am curious about the round bases, perhaps a new thing for unique units? I agree that it is generally a terrible idea to put all models on round bases and I am not a fan of the bubble fluff rumors, but I will reserve judgement.
 
Having been into WHFB since the 4th, I'll be very surprised if the statements in the initial post come to light, it seems far to extreme and not in line with GW's previous moves. I can certainly see the fluff being change, and with the End Times I think it will be likely that some armies get merged (i.e. all Undead under one book). I think there will be some support for all armies in one fashion or another, similar to how the 4th edition books worked, where for example in the Undead book you could have an eqyptian style, vampire style or mixed.
 
Thing is, if anyone cared about their community, or if the store was run properly, someone would take a break from their hardcore tournament training games to scale down their army and play a smaller game to help new players. Or hobbyists/ staff would offer advice on the direction the new player should be going, or there would be a "beginner's night" where the games were smaller scale. Or the shop could let the player use elements from the store army to fill out their force. That's how it worked back when Warhammer was flourishing.

The game played better at small scales back then, though. Going from ranks of four to ranks of five, steadfast making a ton of ranks essential, horde heavily incentivizing huge units even for units that win off of active instead of static res, all of these and more are changes to the core rules of the game that push units and in turn armies to be ever larger. The larger, higher point value standard games isn't a player driven phenomenon, it's a result of a deliberate push in that direction by GW in their rules, trying to squeeze more purchases out of their existing player base at the expense of creating a game that has grown ever more difficult for new players to get into.

It's a trend that they needed to pull back from, but to completely reverse it, to build their strategy around not just catering to new players, but specifically alienating the old, that's not better. Boiling alive isn't any less fatal than freezing yourself.

And the rumored 'everything new will be limited availability, single production run models that vanish from the shelves and the rules after six months' aspect of the supposed strategy for expansions after 9th's release ensures that it's not just the existing disgruntled player base they're alienating. Any new players they manage to attract will learn that GW doesn't want them around after they've been playing for 6 months, either. That's not just axing the existing player base in favor of a hypothetical new one, that's axing the idea of a long term player base at all, and I just don't see how a game that demands commitments of hundreds of hobby hours to get into can survive that way. Would Warmahordes have survived as the competitor it is if all the units introduced in each new expansion had been dropped and discontinued when the next expansion was released?


Again, all that bitterness is assuming the veracity of rumors that I still find somewhat doubtful.


EDIT: For the record, the only things we've seen on round bases so far are skaven engines. If it's just monsters and the like on round bases, I can deal. It's the idea of infantry being on round bases, but still expected to rank up in the same game, that I find just conceptually infuriating, based on experience with War of the Rings.
 
Just about to post that too, I really don't like the idea of round bases, it's gonna detract from the game in my opinion.

Also on the warhammer apps description of thanquol, they talk of the final siege of the dwarfen holds, maybe they are getting merged with men.


If that picture is actually printed in Warhammer: Thanquol (for once I got a pre-order in before the copies were sold out), then I am pretty sure that is the 'nail in the lid' and validates much of the worst rumors. :scared: I cannot even fathom how you would rank up the Bell or Furnace pushers with a round base. Could mean those two units will become self mobile like the Cauldron of Blood but the round base still validates the awful rumor. I'm not really sure why you would need to play even a skirmish game with round bases. Seems to me that you can get at many models around each type. But you CERTAINLY cannot play a rank and file formation game with round bases. What will happen to our 'corner to corner'?

Having been into WHFB since the 4th, I'll be very surprised if the statements in the initial post come to light, it seems far to extreme and not in line with GW's previous moves. I can certainly see the fluff being change, and with the End Times I think it will be likely that some armies get merged (i.e. all Undead under one book). I think there will be some support for all armies in one fashion or another, similar to how the 4th edition books worked, where for example in the Undead book you could have an eqyptian style, vampire style or mixed.
Rick Priestly was a top official/officer of the company (as well as one of the original authors) up to 8th edition. He's gone now. Some speculate they are trying to do what they need to do to stop any royalty payments to him.
 
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Haven't seen the pictures but what if the round bases on the Bell and Furnace were more for show than anything else? Like the painter/modeler had no intention of playing a game with those models and just wanted to show them off. Is that a thought that has crossed anyone else's mind? There are plenty of examples of this in the BRB. Would it be too much to fathom that this is actually what's going on?

Just trying to stay as positive as possible in light of the rumors.
 
@Yorga - I didn't know that, but one thing still makes me think they wouldn't try something this extreme, basically the bottom line. The End Times and merging of books would be a big change, loose some players but still retain most of the player base. Something as big as the changes mentioned would utterly break the existing player base, and also make it very difficult to create and maintain a new one long term, it just doesn't make good business sense.
 
This picture of the next White Dwarf got leaked on a Polish forum today. Shows off the Storm Fiends. They are on square bases, but look much more unique (i.e. legally protected) then previous rat ogre type models. What do you guys think?

ic0mmq.jpg
 
This picture of the next White Dwarf got leaked on a Polish forum today. Shows off the Storm Fiends. They are on square bases, but look much more unique (i.e. legally protected) then previous rat ogre type models. What do you guys think?

I think they have a scarey 40Kish look to them. Having said that I am impressed with many of the 40K models even if I don't like the style of game. My opinion is based off of 4th edition. I have been told the game has changed a lot. But many say it changed for the worse.
 
Some speculate they are trying to do what they need to do to stop any royalty payments to him.

Does GW even pay royalties? That sounds far fetched...

Going from ranks of four to ranks of five, steadfast making a ton of ranks essential, horde heavily incentivizing huge units even for units that win off of active instead of static res, all of these and more are changes to the core rules of the game that push units and in turn armies to be ever larger.

Sure, but again, you work up to that. Even in a 2500 point game, not every unit is a horde. And even in 6th edition, I was using ranks of 5 or 6. Steadfast still works the same at lower level games; the steadfast unit will merely have 5 or 6 ranks instead of 10.

But yeah, all of that helps contribute to the "Death Star" mentality of play, and that's a symptom of tournament gaming: Do whatever you can to not give up any VPs. I think something as simple as awarding half points for units brought below half strength would immensely curtail that. (On that note, it's really sad that there needs to be a scenario where victory is based around how many banners are in one's army because otherwise people just wouldn't take banners to deny those VPs if they're killed. People should put banners in their army because they look awesome, not because one particular scenario makes it impossible to win without them.)

Haven't seen the pictures but what if the round bases on the Bell and Furnace were more for show than anything else? Like the painter/modeler had no intention of playing a game with those models and just wanted to show them off.

They're GW studio models, in a GW photo– Not quite the same as someone building a centerpiece model. GW models are generally built to showcase the model as it appears in the game.
 
@Yorga - I didn't know that, but one thing still makes me think they wouldn't try something this extreme, basically the bottom line. The End Times and merging of books would be a big change, loose some players but still retain most of the player base. Something as big as the changes mentioned would utterly break the existing player base, and also make it very difficult to create and maintain a new one long term, it just doesn't make good business sense.

Yes, sadly Rick was somehow edged or voted out. I don't know. He's with another company now. Might be his own. But his voice and Jervis Johnson might be why they have never taken such drastic moves in the past. With Rick gone and Jervis probably cowed, I don't have any faith in GW's business model.

@Infernal Skull :

Yes. GW pays royalties. All the sculptors have made their money from royalties. Even Matt Ward is still collecting royalties for anything published with his name on it. I believe there is no way around it unless you sell your royalty rights. Royalties are how most of entertainment. artist and the like are paid.
 
I think they have a scarey 40Kish look to them. Having said that I am impressed with many of the 40K models even if I don't like the style of game. My opinion is based off of 4th edition. I have been told the game has changed a lot. But many say it changed for the worse.

I don't know if they're entirely 40K-ish (they're nowhere near as bad as the Khorne motorcycle Skull Cannon or the Soul Grinder (which is basically a 40K Defiler).

One thing I don't care for (and maybe they will look better upon closer inspection) is how factory-made their machinery looks. Skaven tech needs to look a little more ramshackle, and those look like they were manufactured on the same Dwarven assembly line as the Gyrocopter. Also, not a fan of the ol' ratling gun-in-the-chest-cavity.
 
The only things seen on rounds so far were big skaven engines. If monsters and other big things go onto rounds, I could live with that. It's the idea of trying to use round based infantry in a ranked regiment game that turns my stomach. Hopefully that part of the rumors does not come to pass.

As for the stormfiends... eh. I mean, they're miles better than the previous plastic rat ogres, but I still think the starter box models were a lot better. More flavorful, more 'skavenish'. These guys are a little too clean, a little too upright, not quite furry enough. Their weapons and implants, especially the gatling guns, lean a bit too far towards the 'tech' end of the 'magitech' spectrum for my tastes in skaven models, and the armor on the champion in particular feels too 40kish or even warmachinesque to me.

That said, I do like them overall, and, again, they are way better than the previous official kit. If I were a skaven player, I'd probably pick up a couple boxes. Or, at least, I would if we didn't have the 9e rumors hanging over us.
 
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Iv'e seen this thing before. Most newer players are going to be shocked but for those of us who came across way back in the WHFB 1980 something, GW has done this thing before. Toss out the rules for armies and go with small battle groups etc. As to the limited stuff.... Belive. They have been doing it all this year so no suprise there. I think we will see a move to the following.

Core troops will be standard items. Smaller boxs with multi use items. All ready set up for us.

Special items. Limited stock or online order only. Sucks but it allows them to make as they go keeping cost down and driving up sales at the time. If it sits around, no more making it.

New rules. Remember the days when VC got bowmen ( undead and alive ) and chariots? Then POW, they got hammered. No more big undead armies, harder to use troops etc. Well here we go again. Could be good or bad.

The main thing is I don't think GW is going to move to a board game or drop it. They seem to be going back to the beginning and rebooking how they are doing things. Regrouping and cutting the low sale items. As for the " bubbles" idea, I would think more like the maps been trashed, some towns gone. New states and territories. Think a bump back on the time line to before the Big empire and such states.
Main thing is buy the stuff you may want now before it changes. Even if you may or may not use it. Hell I've got lots i paint but don't play.
 

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