RIP WHFB 2015

[Sception]

Fun's in the detail, but warhammer already bumps right up to the edge of what detail is still fun in a battle setting. For me, a few details (in particular the 'mysterious terrain') step a toe over that line already. Warhammer takes a long time to play, even if both players know what they're doing. I just don't seem the designers managing to up the granularity of the rules without negatively impacting that.

And that's an issue, because, as granular as the game is for a battles game, the rules aren't as detailed as they'd need to be for a skirmish game. Battles games are units against units, while skirmish games are model against model, even if some of those models are still required to travel in loose 'units' of the same type.

The comparison to mordheim is an apt one, because as much as it shared with WHFB 5th edition, it was still a very different game, in particular when it comes to details of rules, with status effects applied to individual models, and condition steps (up, knocked down, stunned) beyond merely 'alive' and 'dead'. It was not just 5th ed with fewer models, and if it were it wouldn't have been nearly as good of a skirmish game. Likewise, 5th was not just Mordheim with more models, and if it were it would have been unworkable as a battles game. And, imo, there couldn't really be a happy medium that would have been able to do both with equal grace. A game that tried would be either a much worse battle game, or a much worse skirmish game, or more likely somewhat worse at both.

If GW is trying to push their way into skirmish game territory, and given the nature of their product I really think they have to (again, model per model GW's offering blow the primary competition out of the water, but army per army the GW prices just get unreasonable). I was kind of hoping a serious skirmish game push would be made as a partner to warhammer fantasy proper, rather than replacing it, but that might have been a tad overoptimistic. Even so, if they are going this way, imo it would be better for them to focus the design on the part that matters more - the skirmish part - and not worry about the battles game that wasn't serving them anyway.

Again, if they try to do both, I don't think they'll pull off either very well. Rules matter in what games people play, and with all the things already stacked against newhammer, it doesn't need a poorly optimized ruleset on top of that.

 

[najo]

Mordhiem was built around 6th edition and you don't need any more detail than we currently have to do skirmish. 40k is skirmish and can be played with a couple units of 10 man squads and a character. Allowing fantasy units to run the same way without having to go rank and file unless you want them too is all that is needed.

So, this is all you need to do:
1) Any unit can be skirmished. Maybe put a maximum size on this.
2) Skirmishers work like 40k/6th-7th edition. I.e. stay within 2" of another member of your unit.
3) Skirmishers would never be able to disrupt regiments or hold objectives against them.
4) Any unit without the skirmisher rule can rank up with a reform. Then when ranked up works like 8th edition.
5) Basic rules teach movement, shooting and close combat as skirmished. I.e. like 40k.

BAM! Simple. Fantasy easier to teach and play at small point values. It scales up into full armies. New and old players rejoice!

Honestly, skirmishing being a formation that all units can take is realistic and lends itself to interesting tactics.

 

[Sception]

Mordheim was released in 1999, and while they may have had some of 2000's 6th edition core rules changes in mind, to me it always resembled 5th edition more. Even if it was based in part on 6th ed core rules already in development, the factions bore much more resemblance to their 5e counterparts, in terms of stat lines and such. Not that which edition of warhammer mordheim most resembled is the point. The point is that mordheim was not just 'warhammer fantasy battles with fewer models and skirmished movement'. Warhammer skirmish was that, and few people seemed to care for it. It certainly isn't remembered as fondly as mordheim. If newhammer is just regular warhammer fantasy battle with warhammer skirmish front and center, that might be nice for the current player base (though the chaos dwarfing of all of their factions will probably still see a goodly number of them alienated and embittered), but it isn't going to help the game break into the skirmish market, and if it fails to do that then what even was the point?

 

[Dragonet]

That seems pretty cool, especially with unique individuals you could have Fantasy Killteams as well! For battles I'd suggest that Skirmishers should have to keep some kind of mandatory minimum distance from regiments, as most battalions would send a few squads out to annihilate a small group of irregulars if they dared to stray too close...
I must say as far as terrain and magic go, I much prefer them relatively mundane and never play with Mysterious Terrain unless asked to.
As far as Warmachine goes, I agree the gameplay is definitely not transferrable to battles, but does anyone see merit in their detailed statlines for skirmish/RPG and simplified versions for the battle level game? I could go along with that.

 

[Yorga]

You go back and read earlier editions of warhammer though, and the rules are clean, gentlemanly and concise. I think the rewriting on top of Rick's work over the years is where the game has gotten muddied. Alessio did 6th and 7th and then Mat Ward did 8th.

At what point? Rick wrote 3rd edition. It was the most cumbersome of games. Turtle formations, cavalry wedges, 'push back' after combat...and a spell system where you could simply 'purchase' an "I win" spell. I hardly believe that fits your description. Perhaps you mean 4th edition? I would be more likely to agree.

 

[najo]

At what point? Rick wrote 3rd edition. It was the most cumbersome of games. Turtle formations, cavalry wedges, 'push back' after combat...and a spell system where you could simply 'purchase' an "I win" spell. I hardly believe that fits your description. Perhaps you mean 4th edition? I would be more likely to agree.

Yes, I'm referring to 4th. 3rd was a huge, bloated mess. WAY to complicated.

 

[Bullhax]

just finished the Thanquol book, read them all except the elf one. Holy hell now I know why George R.R. Martin haven't finished the latest book yet. He co-authered the End Time books.

Huge SPOILERS follow.

Spoiler

So many special characters die. Queek, mazdamundi, Kroq-Gar, Lord Kroak (consumed by a conflagation caused by morslieb exploding) Krazrak one eye, Valten, Gregor Martak, High King Thorgrim.. Teclis steals the flame of Ulric to empower his staff but dooming Middleheim Valten and Gregor. The Skaven join Archeon.
Lustria is mostly smashed to pieces, most dwarven strongholds emptied.

 

[Yorga]

just finished the Thanquol book, read them all except the elf one. Holy hell now I know why George R.R. Martin haven't finished the latest book yet. He co-authered the End Time books.

Huge SPOILERS follow.

Spoiler

So many special characters die. Queek, mazdamundi, Kroq-Gar, Lord Kroak (consumed by a conflagation caused by morslieb exploding) Krazrak one eye, Valten, Gregor Martak, High King Thorgrim.. Teclis steals the flame of Ulric to empower his staff but dooming Middleheim Valten and Gregor. The Skaven join Archeon.
Lustria is mostly smashed to pieces, most dwarven strongholds emptied.

That's pretty funny Bullhax. But I think it is more a case of GW writers copying George and his sudden fame. The real reason there is not another book of A Story of Fire and Ice is that he's a lazy rich old git that doesn't care about his fan base. I think I started reading Game of Thrones about the same time I started playing Warhammer. In the early 90s. That's why HBO said they are finishing the story the way THEY want to for their series. They can't wait on George and his snail like rendition of telling his tale.

On a side note I am quite pleased with HBO's decision. Something tells me I will like their ending a whole lot better than the way George will do his. I was really pleased with the way they ended True Blood and Boardwalk Empire. They have obviously learned from their Soprano and Deadwood mistakes.

 

[najo]

That's pretty funny Bullhax. But I think it is more a case of GW writers copying George and his sudden fame. The real reason there is not another book of A Story of Fire and Ice is that he's a lazy rich old git that doesn't care about his fan base. I think I started reading Game of Thrones about the same time I started playing Warhammer. In the early 90s. That's why HBO said they are finishing the story the way THEY want to for their series. They can't wait on George and his snail like rendition of telling his tale.

On a side note I am quite pleased with HBO's decision. Something tells me I will like their ending a whole lot better than the way George will do his. I was really pleased with the way they ended True Blood and Boardwalk Empire. They have obviously learned from their Soprano and Deadwood mistakes.

Lol, we might just have different tastes. Now, I haven't seen boardwalk empire or deadwood, but I didn't like how True Blood ended and I was shocked and intrigued how Sopranos ended. Agree with you on Martin, he needs to get it done! But not sure if it's laziness or him just being overwhelmed and unable to deal with the complexity of the devils he's painted himself into a corner with.

 

[Von Drak]

New from Warseer this morning !

Edit : Here is the link

http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?p=7386580

I'm in love with those hahaha

9th edition will be 90% the same as 8th edition.
The new 'Factions' will not be made up from the existing armies but new armies.
(Or they will look so different from the existing armies they might as well be new armies)
These new armies will be made from new units/characters
The new units will have a very different aesthetic from existing miniatures.
The new units can be used by one or more of the existing armies.
OR can just be used as units for generic 'Forces of order' Or forces of destruction' armies.
I can keep my "OLD COLLECTION"
(AKA Brand new army I just dropped a ton of cash on ... Thanks for that!!!

)
... but don't expect any new miniatures for a while?
9th Edition will get a boxed set.
In the box will be a rule book? Or a book that links the game in the box to the main rule book / a skirmish Rule book / and a Warhammer armies book.
The warhammer armies book will have a limited army list for each faction.
There is a points system.
But it is not compulsory (So you can pick 'X' number of characters/units from the selection)
Skirmish is not intended to be the main way to play Warhammer ... but an alternative.
This will be a simple starter game without a lot of complex special rules. An introductory game.
Some fantasy miniatures will be supplied on round bases due to rules changes
... but not all.... just skirmishing units and units attached to ranked units?
...and big Warmachines?
Characters will be on round bases. (Or oval bases for cavalry)
... and so characters can no longer join ranked up units.
I do not need to re-base my existing characters to use them.
Round bases are nothing to do with the new skirmish game.
You don't know what is going on with round bases.
Bretonnians will not get a new army book and will not get any new units.
There will be some units which are a bit like Bretonnians in a new 'Forces of order' book
Loads of stuff coming for Skaven but you don't know when.
New skaven stuff will not look like the existing Skaven stuff but an evolution. (I think we can see where they are going looking at the recent stuff)
Beastmen ... future is uncertain but you guess they will find a place in Chaos.
Lots of new stuff to come for Fantasy.
Most stuff will be new units monsters or characters.
Elite units will be smaller 2-5 minis.
Look of armies will change.
Smaller armies with less miniatures and more big stuff.
No information about new rules.

 

[Yorga]

Yay....more depressing rumors.

 

[Xivigg]

blehhh...

will wait and see. But me and my friend may stick to 8th if 9th don't appeal to us.

 

[Atrophus]

These are the weakest sounding rumours yet in my opinion, I wouldn't worry tbh.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

These are the weakest sounding rumours yet in my opinion, I wouldn't worry tbh.

Pretty much how I've felt about all of these 9th rumours. They oscillate between "way overblown" and "sounds like an expansion product, and not an actual 9th edition."

 

[Infernal Skull]

The rumors Von Drak posted are "Harry's" translation/ interpretation of rumors that were shotgunned out in a run-on paragraph. Looking at that paragraph, though, things are a little different. It seems Harry has made some assumptions that I don't see any evidence of in the original text (like Bretonnians not getting a new book or any new units. Or the new Skaven stuff not "looking like" the old Skaven stuff.)

Here's the original text of the rumor posted by Ikitlagriffe, separated into its individual elements, without any additions, edits, or translations, other than to break the lines into smaller, more easily readable paragraphs:

From "Ikitlagriffe" on Warseer:
Anyone who wants to know what there is in V9 has to imagine that this is the V8 ; it will be 90% right. Rule changes have been made to stabilize and streamline some points, particularly at the formation units and their interaction with the characters, from what I was told.

About the armies that follow (“factions” J ) : they won’t be "bundling" of existing armies, but almost all new prospects. These are all new units with an aesthetic different from what we knew and new historic lines, new characters, we could almost consider some of them as new “races”.

Nevertheless, each new release will be integrated into one or more pre-existent conventional armies. Some new units, for example, will just belong to “Forces of Order” or “Forces of Destruction”.

No stress. You can keep your old collection (all your collection), and enjoy with it.

V9 will not be just one book, but a box with other things such as a volume focused on two types of battles : clashes "lord of battles "in standard format creating links between games, and smaller battles with “pre-organised” armies (that's what you took for a skirmish game I think).

About this “skirmish” game: I’m not completely sure about that : this has taken many different forms over the settings but it seems to be one of the most tested aspects in recent years by GW teams. It is not intended to be the main way to play Battle.

Currently, forces will be selected from a list of predefined choices, more restrained that the currents army books, without worrying percentage points, points themselves will not so important anymore: it will be destabilizing for the old players, but the number of miniatures contained in a unit or its point value could be no longer as important as before in this system.

Players would have the choice to comply or not the points. A book will summarize the possible choices for all existing armies. It was thought just for fun, and almost all special rules of existing models could be ignored because of it.

About round bases : there would be a misunderstanding at this level too. Some Warhammer miniatures will indeed now sold on round bases, but it’s the consequence of some simplified rules and not a transition to a new system, or 40k-like, or I don’t know what. No link with the new “skirmish game”.

The elements attached to units will be on round base (as skaven regimental weapons or dark elves cauldron of blood for example, but also characters according to pictures I’ve seen), are no longer joined the unit but move next to, and may have a round or oval base. But if your old version is not on a round base, you can still play with, no problem.

About “waiting” armies :

for the bretonnians, there is a book that will follow this year, but perhaps we can’t call this “army book” because it will be very different from what you had until then. It will be closer from the End Times books recently issued. There will be in it new units, which could join the Forces of Order, and very close from a Bretonnian army, but not only.

For the Skavens, the amount of new stuff approaching is just unprecedented (although I have no visibility on dates). It won’t be really “skavens” as we knew them, but a sort of evolution type very nice and inspired. No merger with Chaos for them (anyway, no merger for anyone!).

About Beastmen, they don’t have directly the same processing, to the best of my knowledge, but no doubt they will benefit from a wealth of new opportunities for chaos. I had no evidence that it’s matter of squatting them, nor nobody else.

The quantity of new stuff for Battle will be just incredible, if all that is planed comes out. New releases will be essentially new entries, unique monsters, characters, and elite units of 2 to 5 figures. This will change progressively the overall appearance of the armies, with fewer miniatures (but larger).

There will always be a place for large infantry units; however I don’t have a precise view of the new rules, that's why I can’t say if it will always be interesting to play big infantry units, or not.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

...sounds like "New Game" to me.

"Here's this other thing we have. All the models still work for our other big game. New players can buy the new game, old players can buy the new models for the old game, and hopefully the new players will get hooked and spend gazillions of dollars transitioning their new-game armies into old-game armies."

 

[Blutsauger]

Currently, forces will be selected from a list of predefined choices, more restrained that the currents army books, without worrying percentage points, points themselves will not so important anymore: it will be destabilizing for the old players, but the number of miniatures contained in a unit or its point value could be no longer as important as before in this system.

Players would have the choice to comply or not the points. A book will summarize the possible choices for all existing armies. It was thought just for fun, and almost all special rules of existing models could be ignored because of it.

Sounds like there might potentially be generic units. So rather than buy 40 Skeletons, you just buy a Skeleton Unit which would have a standard size (say, 200mm wide and 80mm deep) and a handful of formation options. I think that can only be good for the game!

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Sounds like there might potentially be generic units. So rather than buy 40 Skeletons, you just buy a Skeleton Unit which would have a standard size (say, 200mm wide and 80mm deep) and a handful of formation options. I think that can only be good for the game!

...that or gives it Warmahordes syndrome, where every army looks exactly the freaking same.

 

[Blutsauger]

On the one hand, it frees players from the constraints of basing and hordes of models needing to rank up. One of my favourite games, Hail Caesar, doesn't use model numbers at all. Units come in either small, regular or large size and essentially just have one large base. You can have one, two or three (or as many as you want) ranks and it makes no difference to the unit performance. You can have one or two models per base, or thirty or forty. Makes no difference. Adopting a system like that for WHFB would let players use unit fillers with impunity, reduce the volume of models in their units, and stops all the 'who can my models strike?' nonsense that we get at the moment.

And the other thing to consider is that most WHFB armies look pretty much the same at the moment anyway. Everyone fields long columns of weak troops or wide formations of killy troops. People often make bold choices with their modelling, but very few people make bold choices with unit composition or formation. Everyone knows what works, and no one ventures away from that. Standardised units wouldn't improve that, but it would at least let players focus more on playing the game, and less on buying and painting 80+ skeletons so they can have two viable infantry buses.

 

[Von Drak]

Sorry guys I didn't copy/paste the good part

But Ikit clarified some points and we could see elite infantry with 2W and cavalry with 2-3W

Blood knights with 3W that's awesome no ?

 

[Bullhax]

Sorry guys I didn't copy/paste the good part

But Ikit clarified some points and we could see elite infantry with 2W and cavalry with 2-3W

Blood knights with 3W that's awesome no ?

They exist already (infantry atleast) blightkings, the upcomming khorne models are both regular I with multiple wounds. Their bases will undoubtedly be larger as well.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Sorry guys I didn't copy/paste the good part

But Ikit clarified some points and we could see elite infantry with 2W and cavalry with 2-3W

Blood knights with 3W that's awesome no ?

I suspect he's referring to new elite units. When he says elite infantry will be added, I'm imagining things like the Morghasts or Stormfiends-- Larger models with a smaller unit count and multiple wounds per model.

I expect we'll see things like the the rumored "good" Chaos warriors, which will be similarly sized to the Blight Kings and available to any Forces of Order army, or playable as part of their own faction.

 

[Infernal Skull]

It looks like Ikitlagriffe replied to Harry's post:

Here's the link: http://www.warseer.com/forums/showthread.php?405473-Warhammer-9th-Edition-Roundup-Discussion/page15

(Red text is Ikitlagriffe's reply.)

Are these from your own sources YES, FROM DIFFERENT SOURCES.
or simply your interpretation of what you have collected from the interwebz? SERIOUSLY ?... NO.

I am pretty sure you speak English very much better than I speak any other language NOT SURE ! SORRY FOR THAT.

9th edition will be 90% the same as 8th edition YES, ABOUT RULES, SAME OPINION FROM 2 DIFFERENT SOURCES.
The new 'Factions' ...
...will look so different from the existing armies they might as well be new armies YES
These new armies will be made from new units/characters MAJORITY YES
The new units will have a very different aesthetic from existing miniatures. 200% YES
The new units can be used by one or more of the existing armies. YES
OR can just be used as units for generic 'Forces of order' Or forces of destruction' armies. NO
I can keep my "OLD COLLECTION" YES
... but don't expect any new miniatures for a while? I CAN'T SAY THAT FROM WHAT I KNOW BUT LIKELY DEDUCTION
9th Edition will get a boxed set. I HEARD ABOUT A BOX OF BOOKS
In the box will be a rule book? YES a skirmish Rule book YES / and a Warhammer armies book NOT EXACTLY : but a listing of playable units or pre-constructed groups YES.
The warhammer armies book will have a limited army list for each faction. YES, but I HAD NO INFORMATION ABOUT "FACTIONS" (and this number of "6" ??), so I would say "for each army".
There is a points system. YES
But it is not compulsory (So you can pick 'X' number of characters/units from the selection) SOMETHING LIKE THAT.
Skirmish is not intended to be the main way to play Warhammer ... but an alternative. YES
This will be a simple starter game without a lot of complex special rules. An introductory game. YES
Some fantasy miniatures will be supplied on round bases due to rules changes YES
... but not all.... just skirmishing units DON'T KNOW and units attached to ranked units? YES
...and big Warmachines? ATTACHED TO RANKED UNITS YES
Characters will be on round bases. (Or oval bases for cavalry) YES
... and so characters can no longer join ranked up units. PERSONAL DEDUCTION, BUT YES
I do not need to re-base my existing characters to use them YES - two times confirmed
Round bases are nothing to do with the new skirmish game YES.
You don't know what is going on with round bases EXPLAINED BY MINOR CHANGES OF RULES, FROM WHAT I KNOW.
Bretonnians will not get a new army book and will not get any new units STRICTLY SPEAKING YES
There will be some units which are a bit like Bretonnians in a new 'Forces of order' book YES
Loads of stuff coming for Skaven but you don't know when. YES
New skaven stuff will not look like the existing Skaven stuff but an evolution. YES
Beastmen ... future is uncertain but you guess they will find a place in Chaos. YES, I GUESS.
Lots of new stuff to come for Fantasy. YES
Most stuff will be new units monsters or characters. YES
Elite units will be smaller 2-5 minis.YES
Look of armies will change. OH YES !
Smaller armies with less miniatures and more big stuff. LOGICALLY
No information about new rules. NO DETAILS YES, BUT IT SEEMS TO BE MINOR CHANGES.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Sounds like characters are to become sort of like floating unit upgrades. Should reduce some of the obnoxious character walls, etc. I suppose? Which is a shame as I rather *liked* the obnoxious character walls. Oh well.

 

[Atrophus]

So it's going to be 90% the same game, but bases are changing on warmachines and big stuff I.e. cauldron of blood/ screaming bell. And characters can't join units........riiiiiiiiight.

It's either nonsense or characters can't join units and will just get sniped by magic and shooting, because the rules aren't really changing?
Makes perfect sense now they've explained it