Sigmars Blood.

[Borgnine]

Wow, vampires scoring a win in the fluff! That's nice, Mannfred keeps going strong! ... well, until yet another 'we win' action from the good guys...

But by the way - Mannfred is quite present in the 'news' lately. He's kidnapping the elven princes, he met Be'lakor while getting yet another Book of Nagash in the last Battlescroll - this is surely interesting. I wonder where GW will take this?

 

[Christophe von Carstein]

Mannfred met Be'lakor have i missed something?

Also got my copy of novella and campaign book, not finished reading them yet but skimming through it yeah as always the empire find the most elaborate and unlikely way to win from the jaws of defeat, I mean surely Mannfred would of found a way to destroy the stolen holy symbols rather than bury them, right where the final battle took place.
Okay Volkmar is essentially Mannfreds b***h now with a giant bone wall around Sylvania leaving us gamers/readers thinking whats his next move, but his army was again defeated, (by a ridiculous method) after all couldnt have them ready and able to march straight over the border to start a whole new war with the Empire in attempt to claim the crown off of Franz.

As for the Vlad discussion the way I saw him was yes he wanted to rule, but he wanted to rule over mortals, not a realm of the dead like Mannfred does because he knows they are important, they are needed for food, but in part he wanted to rule simply so that all vampires didn't have to hide and skulk in the shadows fearful of witch hunters and priests instead they could live like kings, even gods like they did in Nehekhara way back in a time before Sigmar. Not exactly evil, he just wanted to be able to live peacefully and in comfort and in charge, in my opinion anyway.

Vlad did largely treat those who swore loyalty to him fairly and those that didn't very harshly. After all in the books he always gave those that marched against him the option to serve him in life or death. compare that with Konrad who offered people a quick death or a slow death, hes pretty good. Okay yeah some loyal to Vlad will have met a terrible end because they displeased him or something but the likes of the Von Draks before him were just as bad in that respect. But he did what he could to make Sylvania prosper and just that bit better for those he ruled over, doesnt mean it was a great place to live but it was an improvement.

 

[Borgnine]

Mannfred met Be'lakor have i missed something?

Yes - on the new Be'lakor Battlescroll. There is a story of Mannfred travelling to the north to get the Book of Nagash - and while searching for it, he managed to encounter Be'lakor. The demon didn't attack him, but told him that they both serve unworthy masters. And when Manny replied that he serve no one, Be'lakor said 'not yet' and that a shadow lies upon his future. Demon got away to his own business while warning Mannfred that they 'may share a common goal in the future'. Mannfred got out of it the fourth Book of Nagash - there were 9 of them, am I right?

I find this piece really interesting - not only it furthers Mannfred's search for the books, but also foreshadows some interesting developments. Another campaign? Nagash returning?

 

[Christophe von Carstein]

Interesting, will have to read it for myself, why does it have to be just available digitally when I dont own a kindle, ipad etc.

First thought does jump to the possible return of Nagash seemingly against Mannfred's wish as he wants all the power for himself, but considering Be'lakor has to serve the everchosen, Chaos may yet have a major role to play?
Plus questions as to why Be'lakor has a book of Nagash. But at least GW are advancing the timeline, some good must come from that

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

im digging the new fluff. not only did he kidnap a elven princess but he is also alligned with kemmler and krell. now he is on speaking terms with Be'lakor?

this is getting very interesting indeed

 

[Adam_Barrow]

Omg omg omg! Zacharias has one of the Books! Pleeaasse give me a new Zacharias story/scenario.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Not entirely true, he always sought a peaceful means first but if that did not work then he would.
As he did care for his own he is a hell of allot better than some of the people who have lead the empire over the years and at the time of multiple emperors he did nothing any of the others were not already guilty of themselves.

He allowed his vampires to torture and toy with mortals as if they where nothing.
Men can be monsters as well but that does not make Vlad a less of a monster.

They need peaople yes but they do not need to rule them, if he only sought a food cource he could hold captives and kill the rest breeding them as needed but he did not.
Also it was through his actions that led to Nagashes downfall and freeed the vampires from his control.

I don't know how Vlad had anything to do with Nagashes downfall-...However you are wrong. Vlad -WANTED- to rule. He wanted his vampires to rule and he believed because they where immortal they where perfect to such. He was completely blind to the problems it has raised in the past.

You have to remember as well the Von Draks were evil rulers.
They had taxes no one could pay, let the realm fall into disrepair, bandits were common place and people were killed publically for amusement to no end.
Vlad Lowered taxes, repaired the realm and united it again, maintained the laws and he did not kill without cause, to them he was a saint, he protected them because they were his people and this was his realm, any who were loyal were not harmed, those who were not suffed strange ill fortunes and were eventually replaced or disapeared in strange accidents.

Vlad dispatched anyone who did not bow to him quite brutally and he slaughtered the nobles and people in places of power to allow his favored vampires to take over. Peasants and such where not simply butchered as much because -...Well the cow example again.

Even in the game mechanics as well as the lore they both could not live without the other.
The world is a bleak place when you have no one to live for.

Vampires are capable of feelings of love and desire. This has never been disputed. His wife was quite the fucked up sadist x) Again a pair of monster that love each other does not make them good! xP

Ok, going to have to break this down.

1) Some did but he did not allow it on his own, he just did not protect anyone who was not under his own banner.
Vlad was not the nicest but he was no means a monster when compared to everything else of the old world.

2)Ok, I think you have not read what I said at this point.
I said he wanted to rule, not kill like Mannfred and Konrad, i think you have got a little mixed up here.
Second point on it though it was Vlad about to cut down Alakazard (can't spell his name for toffee from memory) but he allowed himself to be beat which aloowled the vampires to escape, lost Nagash the battle and cost him dearly in the end as the man Vlad should of killed Killed Nagash with the help of the Council of thirteen.
It was not his direct actions but was caused by his actions.

3) Any who went against him were killed, there were however still many human rulers inside the boarder, they just had to bow their knee.
Also I will mention that as they were his vassals in his land if they do not it is still treason which should be made an example of, he did however have a habit of turning rulers who did follow into vampires, he did not turn up with them, he made them of the nobles, thats why they had legitimate titles.

4) Isabella was more feral than most due to her first feeding being of wolfs blood however the point i was making is that the others care nothing unless it gains them power, they will stab each other in the back.
Vlad was never like that, rewarded the loyal, had those he trusted and care for which lead to his betrayal but still he cared beyond his own self.

Mannfred met Be'lakor have i missed something?

Also got my copy of novella and campaign book, not finished reading them yet but skimming through it yeah as always the empire find the most elaborate and unlikely way to win from the jaws of defeat, I mean surely Mannfred would of found a way to destroy the stolen holy symbols rather than bury them, right where the final battle took place.
Okay Volkmar is essentially Mannfreds b***h now with a giant bone wall around Sylvania leaving us gamers/readers thinking whats his next move, but his army was again defeated, (by a ridiculous method) after all couldnt have them ready and able to march straight over the border to start a whole new war with the Empire in attempt to claim the crown off of Franz.

As for the Vlad discussion the way I saw him was yes he wanted to rule, but he wanted to rule over mortals, not a realm of the dead like Mannfred does because he knows they are important, they are needed for food, but in part he wanted to rule simply so that all vampires didn't have to hide and skulk in the shadows fearful of witch hunters and priests instead they could live like kings, even gods like they did in Nehekhara way back in a time before Sigmar. Not exactly evil, he just wanted to be able to live peacefully and in comfort and in charge, in my opinion anyway.

Vlad did largely treat those who swore loyalty to him fairly and those that didn't very harshly. After all in the books he always gave those that marched against him the option to serve him in life or death. compare that with Konrad who offered people a quick death or a slow death, hes pretty good. Okay yeah some loyal to Vlad will have met a terrible end because they displeased him or something but the likes of the Von Draks before him were just as bad in that respect. But he did what he could to make Sylvania prosper and just that bit better for those he ruled over, doesnt mean it was a great place to live but it was an improvement.

He was most certainly a improvement but even in Nehekhara and Strigois they did not slaughter people, they ruled fairly.
Its only when you think of their rotting insane cousins do vampires become truly evil.

 

[Count Vashra]

Alakazard-Alcadizzar. You may now resume your interesting debate which I am enjoying reading. Keep going!

"Backs away slowly"

 

[Shareya]

He was most certainly a improvement but even in Nehekhara and Strigois they did not slaughter people, they ruled fairly.
Its only when you think of their rotting insane cousins do vampires become truly evil.

We clearly have different views on what is fair !

2)Ok, I think you have not read what I said at this point.

Sorry about that. I usually make my posts when at work and during my 18 hour shifts I turn into a zombie x)
Oh and seems you are going by the old lore? As the latest books don't have Vlad attacking Alakazard (damn his name...) at all.

 

[Christophe von Carstein]

Isn't it one of the role playing books which essentially says that Vlad was Vashanesh (a name which is a nightmare to find out online when you cant spell it) one of the original vampires after drinking Neferata's elixir.

But since then im pretty sure GW have tried to distance themselves from that idea and have it so that Vashanesh is either dead or very good at hide and seek because obviously GW have never tried to rewrite something and sweep it under the rug, SoC anyone haha

 

[Count Vashra]

Oh and seems you are going by the old lore? As the latest books don't have Vlad attacking Alakazard (damn his name...) at all.

Yes, I was wondering wear this had come from too, because I have read all books in the Rise of Nagash trilogy and Vlad/Vashanesh is nowhere mentioned. All it says is that the Skaven give Alcadizzar a warpstone sword with the power to slay gods and then the Council protects him from Nagash's magic while he's chopping him up. In addition no Vampires are in that scene.

 

[Shareya]

Isn't it one of the role playing books which essentially says that Vlad was Vashanesh (a name which is a nightmare to find out online when you cant spell it) one of the original vampires after drinking Neferata's elixir.

But since then im pretty sure GW have tried to distance themselves from that idea and have it so that Vashanesh is either dead or very good at hide and seek because obviously GW have never tried to rewrite something and sweep it under the rug, SoC anyone haha

It was never confirmed that Vlad = Vashanesh. It was a theory but it was squished by GW by writing him out of the lore and giving all of the founding vamps stronger and more detailed lore.

Edit: actually when Nagash gets chopped there is a vampire ( or even two ) there. Watching from the shadows as mr death god is killed.

 

[Count Vashra]

Must have overlooked/forgotten that. I read the book early in the/last year, so I don't remember everything. Not too loyal, hiding in the shad0ws! (or sensible, not wanting to fight someone who had killed a god)

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

in nights dark master warhammer roleplay book vlad is indeed Vashanesh.

 

[Shareya]

in nights dark master warhammer roleplay book vlad is indeed Vashanesh.

On what page is that so bluntly stated?

 

[Christophe von Carstein]

Well considering its suggested that Mannfred is not only aware but in part responsible for Vlads ring being stolen it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest that Vlad/Vashanesh is hiding in the shadows or turning a blind eye to Nagashs murder by Alakazard

And as far as im aware it was only theory that Vlad was vashanesh but ive just considered that it was largely true considering the lack of history for the Von Carsteins never mind just Vlad, but yeah even in the recent TK book they seem to have distanced themselves from Vashanesh at all

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

in nights dark master warhammer roleplay book vlad is indeed Vashanesh.

On what page is that so bluntly stated?

Well i will read it again and reference it for u

 

[Von Calyptra]

Not to, er, re-rail this thread, but I think Sigmar's Blood is great! My only issue is that I'm struggling to understand Manfred's motivation. In a world of the undead, wouldn't vampires starve?

I noticed that the Knights of the Blazing Sun upgrade pack is no longer available on the GW website. Only GW would discontinue a model, and then release a product specifically requiring the use of that model.

 

[Shareya]

Not to, er, re-rail this thread, but I think Sigmar's Blood is great! My only issue is that I'm struggling to understand Manfred's motivation. In a world of the undead, wouldn't vampires starve?

I noticed that the Knights of the Blazing Sun upgrade pack is no longer available on the GW website. Only GW would discontinue a model, and then release a product specifically requiring the use of that model.

Manfred likely plans to keep some humans alive for food BUT it is very possible that he is being influenced by Nagash already.

I just finished Master of Death and it had a curious pattern. Vampire(s) that where effected by Nagash usually turned bit more sinister and started to desire to create a undead world. So as mentioned before poor Manfred might be a puppet already and he simply does not know it.

It does make sense I think. If Nagash returns it would also make a lovely campaign and be a good way to push the lore forwards.

 

[Christophe von Carstein]

I suppose it is plausible that Mannfred is being influenced by Nagash without realizing it, after all he has travelled to the land of the dead to learn from the likes of Nagash's acolytes/minions, who are looking to bring back Nagash and someone has powerful as Mannfred would be an ideal puppet because they would be unlikely to reveal all their secrets to him. Got to keep something in reserve

Plus it links in from the small amount of info ive gathered about his encounter with Be'lakor

As for the fact that Mannfred will need blood for food, he is going the wrong way about keeping people alive, by blocking out the sun killing off crops and animals and ultimetly humans, so he must have a plan somewhere. Although was it Abhorash that drank dragon blood and no longer needed human blood, maybe GW will come up with some crazy story as to how Mannfred no longer needs human blood, although it doesnt stop him from enjoying it (I dont think that's likely but just saying, it could happen)

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

Alakazard-Alcadizzar. You may now resume your interesting debate which I am enjoying reading. Keep going!

"Backs away slowly"

Cheers, moving house so don't have my books on me again till Sunday so was unable to check spelling.

He was most certainly a improvement but even in Nehekhara and Strigois they did not slaughter people, they ruled fairly.
Its only when you think of their rotting insane cousins do vampires become truly evil.

We clearly have different views on what is fair !

2)Ok, I think you have not read what I said at this point.

Sorry about that. I usually make my posts when at work and during my 18 hour shifts I turn into a zombie x)
Oh and seems you are going by the old lore? As the latest books don't have Vlad attacking Alakazard (damn his name...) at all.

Killing criminals only and not harming your own people seemed to be the fair point for me truth be told.

I do as well so I understand not getting to read everything at work, don't worry.
I go for the original source book lore, the new novels are a poor mans lore as are normally inconsistent with traits among characters, actions, filled with win buttons and general poetic licensing compared to the rule books, rp's, back ground books etc where its a history more than a work of ever changing fiction.
This tends to change allot as each author has their own take but each background update is based off the prior, not the same with novels.
Thus Nefrattas Husband being wrote out of the Novels all together when he was Nagash's chief general.

Isn't it one of the role playing books which essentially says that Vlad was Vashanesh (a name which is a nightmare to find out online when you cant spell it) one of the original vampires after drinking Neferata's elixir.

But since then im pretty sure GW have tried to distance themselves from that idea and have it so that Vashanesh is either dead or very good at hide and seek because obviously GW have never tried to rewrite something and sweep it under the rug, SoC anyone haha

That book confirms that Vlad is Also Vashanesh but also Prince Vladimir (The one who taught Van Hal necromancy which was in order to defend against the Skaven invasion which again has been tweaked in the new Novel)
But yes, That is Nights Dark Masters.

GW rewrite Lore so much its sickening, they have so much old cannon style running side by side with the new cannon its more contradictory that the bible and makes even less sense.
Most however though default to the old lore as it was around 20+ years before this recent last 2 year bugger up with novels.
Its like GW saying tomorrow that in fact the Emperor killed Sanguinus and Horus was in fact the good guy, the size of the Bricks being shat and thrown straight at GW would be hard to even conceive, poor Mat Ward will likely get more than his fair hare of flack as well simply for being there at the time as well. lol

Oh and seems you are going by the old lore? As the latest books don't have Vlad attacking Alakazard (damn his name...) at all.

Yes, I was wondering wear this had come from too, because I have read all books in the Rise of Nagash trilogy and Vlad/Vashanesh is nowhere mentioned. All it says is that the Skaven give Alcadizzar a warpstone sword with the power to slay gods and then the Council protects him from Nagash's magic while he's chopping him up. In addition no Vampires are in that scene.

In the original they do, they just seemed to of removed this major character from the plot like.
Its like removing One of the More influential Primarchs from the Heresy, Fulgrim for example. total BS...

in nights dark master warhammer roleplay book vlad is indeed Vashanesh.

He is spot on.
Also seems kinda weird how many Geordies are in this thread.
They don't tend to side with Mackems.

Well considering its suggested that Mannfred is not only aware but in part responsible for Vlads ring being stolen it wouldnt surprise me in the slightest that Vlad/Vashanesh is hiding in the shadows or turning a blind eye to Nagashs murder by Alakazard

And as far as im aware it was only theory that Vlad was vashanesh but ive just considered that it was largely true considering the lack of history for the Von Carsteins never mind just Vlad, but yeah even in the recent TK book they seem to have distanced themselves from Vashanesh at all

I personally would say 90% saying that he told them about it in the first place, the other 10% is Good side win button.

in nights dark master warhammer roleplay book vlad is indeed Vashanesh.

On what page is that so bluntly stated?

I would get it for you myself if I had my books to hand but if it has not already been quoted by Monday when I am in my new house I will get it for you.

Not to, er, re-rail this thread, but I think Sigmar's Blood is great! My only issue is that I'm struggling to understand Manfred's motivation. In a world of the undead, wouldn't vampires starve?

I noticed that the Knights of the Blazing Sun upgrade pack is no longer available on the GW website. Only GW would discontinue a model, and then release a product specifically requiring the use of that model.

We are getting a bit off topic here in fairness because its become more of a debate on morality of the Vampires themselves led by past events and characters.


Think I opened a can of worms on that one here:

https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Vampires-are-not-Inherently-Evil-Just-Misunderstood?page=6

Just not got around to responding to it in a little while.
Not had much time and I know that requires allot of in depth arguments and reading. lol

Not to, er, re-rail this thread, but I think Sigmar's Blood is great! My only issue is that I'm struggling to understand Manfred's motivation. In a world of the undead, wouldn't vampires starve?

I noticed that the Knights of the Blazing Sun upgrade pack is no longer available on the GW website. Only GW would discontinue a model, and then release a product specifically requiring the use of that model.

Manfred likely plans to keep some humans alive for food BUT it is very possible that he is being influenced by Nagash already.

I just finished Master of Death and it had a curious pattern. Vampire(s) that where effected by Nagash usually turned bit more sinister and started to desire to create a undead world. So as mentioned before poor Manfred might be a puppet already and he simply does not know it.

It does make sense I think. If Nagash returns it would also make a lovely campaign and be a good way to push the lore forwards.

Living the dream mate.
Would love nothing more than some lore progression and maybe even unusual allies.

Think of the campaign where Vamps fought on both sides, even Skaven could be considered good in this.

I suppose it is plausible that Mannfred is being influenced by Nagash without realizing it, after all he has travelled to the land of the dead to learn from the likes of Nagash's acolytes/minions, who are looking to bring back Nagash and someone has powerful as Mannfred would be an ideal puppet because they would be unlikely to reveal all their secrets to him. Got to keep something in reserve

Plus it links in from the small amount of info ive gathered about his encounter with Be'lakor

As for the fact that Mannfred will need blood for food, he is going the wrong way about keeping people alive, by blocking out the sun killing off crops and animals and ultimetly humans, so he must have a plan somewhere. Although was it Abhorash that drank dragon blood and no longer needed human blood, maybe GW will come up with some crazy story as to how Mannfred no longer needs human blood, although it doesnt stop him from enjoying it (I dont think that's likely but just saying, it could happen)

In some GW lore Like Genevieve old vampires no longer have to drink.
That book also however had Vampire Giants as well so it was awash with strange happenings, like I said though, author poetic licencing.

 

[Shareya]

And just note. I am neutral when it comes to him being written out of the lore. I only get annoyed when someone claims the old lore was fully better because it really was not in my opinion. The whole "silly woman got upset due to not getting enough attention." makes my blood boil

I do as well so I understand not getting to read everything at work, don't worry.
I go for the original source book lore, the new novels are a poor mans lore as are normally inconsistent with traits among characters, actions, filled with win buttons and general poetic licensing compared to the rule books, rp's, back ground books etc where its a history more than a work of ever changing fiction.
This tends to change allot as each author has their own take but each background update is based off the prior, not the same with novels.
Thus Nefrattas Husband being wrote out of the Novels all together when he was Nagash's chief general.

Just to note nor was he in the much older Raise of the Empire ( or whatever the books where called) where Nagash does attack and fights the Emperor. To be honest there are more books that state that he was not there then ones that state he was?

I would get it for you myself if I had my books to hand but if it has not already been quoted by Monday when I am in my new house I will get it for you.

Neat! I am sadly going on a work trip tomorrow too and not back before sunday night/monday morning.

 

[Malochai]

in nights dark master warhammer roleplay book vlad is indeed Vashanesh.

On what page is that so bluntly stated?

The quote is thus:-

Almost unnoticed in the annals of history, Vashanesh travelled to the land of Sylvania that he had first seen as a soldier in the Legion of Setep, and calling himself “Prince Vladimir”, he aided Vanhel in crafting an Undead host to defeat the Skaven who threatened the land in the wake of the Black Death. Content with this change he had wrought in history, he returned to hiding for another 700 years.

When he came back, it was under the name Vlad von Carstein.

-Nights Dark Master, Pages 31-32 of Vampires and Empires of Chapter III: Chronicles of the Undying

Think that's pretty damned clear

 

[Shareya]

Thanks Malo!

Edit: Okey I am confused. Why is Night's Dark Masters not on Black Library? Or em I just missing it?

 

[Malochai]

Night's Dark Masters is pretty much unavailable in physical form anymore, except for at extortionate prices, and GW don't do Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay anymore, so it wouldn't be on BL. Give me a sec to go on Skype.