Skeleton based Core Viable?

[Fenton]

Hey all, aside from lurking in this forum the last several months and playing a single game of WHFB (with Orcs for what that's worth) I have no previous Warhammer experience.

I am wondering whether a Skeleton based army is viable. The reason I want to run skeletons is the following (perhaps boring) narrative, which one can feel free to skip:

Begin Narrative

I am looking to play Warhammer with some guys that play at 2500 pts., and they seemed to indicate I can get up to speed with about $400 bucks worth of models.

So, I have ebayed some collectibles, bought 8th edition rule book, the VC book, a box of Black Knights/HW, and a Mortis Engine, I have about $350 left (because I am willing to go over budget at this point).

I intended on running either a Crypt Scavengers list (because I bought the Battle Scroll and want an excuse to buy a Garden of Morr) or a BK bus list, or combining the two.

I started pricing out the 2 or 3 boxes of BK I would need (as I intended of having a small unit of HW), a Terrorgeist, two boxes of Dire Wolves, a Necro, a Battalion box, 2 boxes of Crypt Horrors, a Garden of Morr, etc, which took me to about $350.

It was at this point that I both decided that the Crypt Ghouls were not aesthetically pleasing, and that I had already blown my virtual wad without getting hardly any core.

I ran some numbers from my book, and figured that to satisfy my core requirement of 625 points, I would need roughly 125 skeletons, or over 200 zombies, mitigated only by the Dire Wolves and potential upgrades to the units I intended on taking.

Even at internet prices, this would blow most of my money before I get the stuff I actually want to build. I decided to check out the Mantic Skeletons and Mantic Zombies. Both sculpts looked alright. the zombies probably getting the win, but obviously costing me more due to needing more of them.

Asthetically I like the idea of incorporating the BK bus, the Terrorgeist, the Mortis Engine, a mounted VL, a baby vamp and a Necro. I think Skeleton hordes would look great with them, but do not want an army that is a lose button.

End Narrative

In looking at many proposed army lists, it appears that Skeletons have fallen out of favor, and that most lists favor Crypt Ghouls as Core, 6 to 8 Crypt Horrors. I am not sure I care for either of those models. Others have a bunch of Zombies, but I don't think I can afford the requisite amount and get the 1875 points of models I need.

So I figure if I have a $120 or so to give Mantic for some skeletons on the cheap, I can try to build the fun part of my army with the remaining funds.

So, ideas to make skeletons work? Do people play Ghouls because you can get to 25% with fewer models (and less $), or is the Poison and the like really making a difference? Am I trying to play the wrong army if I am trying to play 2500 points for under $450? (The modeling element is probably more important to me than anything so I am leery of buying ebay used models to strip and repaint)

Thanks in advance.

 

[Miklos Vak Vados]

I run a 10 X BK bus list with full command and a blender lord / wk standard bearer / baby vamp / necro and two TG.

My core is 5 units of 5 DW, 1 unit of 40 Skellies HWS w / full command, 22 zombies with SB, 2 ten man skellie units with SB. With a single spirit host base, that gives 9 drops before I have to decide where to put the big skellie unit to act as a Tar Pit to protect the flank of the Bus.

Ive been playing this list for over a year at the local game store at 2500 pts and its almost an auto win. With all the drops you control the game from the very outset. The Hand Weapon / Shield allow for better survivability in CC. I also move the dropped small skellie units and the zombie unit up four inches at a time, most of the time, my opponent forgets that they are there, and I can pull off a critical rear charge at just the right time to completely screw up my opponents plan.

 

[Hanblack Nagash]

i find that people often look at zombies and skeles the wrong way.

Zombies are cheaper yes, but their only reason to exist is to die again and hold up armies for a turn or two.
Skeles are basically zombies that have paid 3pts for light armour and shield/ light armour and spears. They also have a Weapon skill upgrade and initiative upgade for the extra 3pts and can also take full command if you so wish.

Now personally, I have alot more success with skeles than zombies. I play them in sizes of 50 (-1 per chara in unit) in ranks of 5. In game after over 10 games of testing, they survive alot longer.

You have to look past your core choices and more so at the overall picture. Is my army going to use alot of magical support? Is it all about hard hitting with minimal magic support?

To give you an example. I use two mortis engines in 2k fights, and in fights of 3k or higher, i use 3.
Skeletons with a 5+ regen or higher will allow you to use spears without worrying about the loss of save and parry save from losing the shield.

Another thing in favour of skeles for me, the saves mean they dont bleed as much combat res which means less pressure on my vampires to do the business.

If the opponent fails a fear test, and with the screaming banner its definately possible, skeles hit on 3's, where zombies will hit on 4's if the opponent fails fear, and if you cant hit them then thats no combat res for you other than ranks and banner.

Something that might help you decide, do you know what armies you are facing in your gaming groups/friends? That might help you overall to come to a conclussion

 

[Fenton]

Thanks for the input so far guys:

I am going to be playing Dark Elves, High Elves, Dwarves, Orcs, and I think some WoC.

I think mostly may be "friendly builds", but who knows.

I plan on running a BK bus (with a mounted VL), a Mortis Engine, a Terrorgeist, and at least one Necro, and at least one other Vamp on foot, and maybe a Wight King. Hopefully the Skeletons can work well with them. (Maybe a single units of zombies as well?)

Most of these choices are made mostly because I like the models.

I do not mind the Grave Guard, and I thought about throwing some in to the mix, as I would have the ingredients to use the Restless Dead Battle Scroll (although I guess the last thing need is skeletons not counting towards my core). Most Grave Guard lists I see have them carrying GW. I love the way their shields look, are they viable with sword and shield? Too expensive without enough durability outside a bus?

-Thanks

 

[Skittelz1981]

Restless dead battle scroll ??? enlighten me please

 

[Fenton]

Restless dead battle scroll ??? enlighten me please

It is a "Battle Scroll", like the "Crypt Scavengers" battle scroll, which is an army list that you purchase from GW, which gives you certain abilities if you take its composition in your army, with the trade off that the models taken count towards your army point value, but not towards your "point percentages."

For example, Restless Dead requires a Wight King, a unit of Black Knights, a unit of Skeletons, a unit of Grave Guard.

The unit gains the ability that the WK acts like a mini general where the unit can still march outside of the general.

There is also a rule where a designated piece of terrain in the opponents deployment zone (or partially in?) gives the unit a buff if you get within range of it.

The downer of the list (for me) is that the skeletons in the formation do not count towards your 25% core (of course the other units do not count towards a % either), and as I recall, I think you are limited to the number of GG in the formation, which cannot be added to other formations, so you are running GG outside a bus, which appears suboptimal for many.

 

[Skittelz1981]

So why is it you would want to run a list like that? Pure fluff?

 

[Fenton]

So why is it you would want to run a list like that? Pure fluff?

If you mean "why would one want to run it?", in a general sense, I think there is supposed to be a benefit of speed potential to the units in the formation being able to continue march outside of the "general's range" which could give the units more speed and penetration into the opponents deployment zone, with the buff if you get there, as an incentive to do so.

Additionally, while the 20 skeletons don't count as your core, the BK, WK, and GG don't eat into your Special percentage either, if that's a benefit to your build.

If you mean "why would you want to run the list?", to me personally, yes, it's all fluff and aesthetics. I am not big on how the Ghouls and Horrors look, and want the army to be as "skeletal" as possible (so skeletons, BK, GG, and the Terrorgeist, and anything else with more bones than flesh showing).

I also like the look of the undead armor and shields, and while at home on the skeletons on their builds, I want to try shields on GG if I am to take them, but have not seen any endorsements to take GG with shields.

 

[Juljima]

Take shields on your grave guards!

There, now you've seen it. :tongue:

My grave guards have shields and they haven't let me down yet.

 

[Fenton]

Take shields on your grave guards!

There, now you've seen it. :tongue:

My grave guards have shields and they haven't let me down yet.

Great to hear success with them. How are you running them, do they have to be run big? Likely can't go giant GG bus, as my points (and money) may run out before I can get too many ranks fielded due to investment in BK. Any use for just a unit of ten? Waste of points since they won't hold up?

Additionally, how are you using them, and where do you deploy them in respect to the rest of your drops? Do you find them fast enough, are you needing to buff their movement via a spell, or are they getting where they need to be are their own?

-Thanks

 

[Miklos Vak Vados]

Take shields on your grave guards!

There, now you've seen it. :tongue:

My grave guards have shields and they haven't let me down yet.

Great to hear success with them. How are you running them, do they have to be run big? Likely can't go giant GG bus, as my points (and money) may run out before I can get too many ranks fielded due to investment in BK. Any use for just a unit of ten? Waste of points since they won't hold up?

Additionally, how are you using them, and where do you deploy them in respect to the rest of your drops? Do you find them fast enough, are you needing to buff their movement via a spell, or are they getting where they need to be are their own?

-Thanks

I have 40 GG with shields that never see the table top. If you are running double mortis engines, corpse carts and DW / Zombies / Skellies I would think you would be able to do pretty well. For me, i run the big BK bus packed with a 530 - 550 pt Blender Lord and as many heros as I can pack into it along with a double TG. GG are just too slow for the TG and you need to keep the TG somewhere within the Lords bubble or they just get Death Sniped or can only move 10 inches.

ON the other hand, the GG / Core Hoard / Corpse Cart / Double Mortis Engine is self supporting although slow. At least you wont be lagging behind a big portion of your force as that list will generally move as a whole.

 

[Juljima]

I Usually have like 25-30 Grave guards, 5 models wide. Banner of the Barrows and a wight king with sword of strife (or wathever its called +2A)

I mostly face bretonnians and he runs his list with mostly knights. This works great against knights. At least so far :tongue:

 

[Fenton]

Any use in having just 10 GG in a 5x2? I can't imagine they would be effective in such a small number, being a fairly expensive and not very fast. I like how they look, but don't imagine I'll have many points to field a sufficient number.

 

[Seneschal]

Nah, mate, they need numbers to do their thing. Low WS and Initiative hamper their ability to work as a small unit, even as a flanker when in that size.

 

[Fenton]

I figured as much, but was hoping there might be some use, just to get them on the table. Oh well, I guess I can just paint a box or two to look at.

Thanks all for the help.