Skeletons With Spears Worth It?

[Friendly Dead]

There's a whopper of an opportunity cost attached to the Mortis Engine - if you field it, you can't do double TG. I know I prefer having the flying, Thunderstomping death-dealer around to trading down for a Chariot with a "meh" aura effect, a watered-down version of the Gheist scream, and slightly boosting the performance of some lousy old Skeletons.

Yeah true... now since TGs are almost-broken good, Mortis Engines may see less action.

Though the double engine list giving all foot troops 5+ regen is very "grindy" indeed and shouldn't be completely overlooked.

It all depends how the rest of the list is built around the rare choices, or vice versa.

I'm just glad that almost a year afetr the new book came out, there's still not just one build that works.

I completely agree with Eggie here - +1 Rep coming your way good sir!

Haha, no never been to Vegas, never even been in a casino, but math interests me... maybe that's the reason why I keep away from gambling

Regarding spear or not I don't see the percentage in contemplating whether or not Skels should have spears, since they have lousy offensive capabilites and I would rather pay the double for a ghoul(who CAN actually fight).

Double pts for +1 WS and poison attacks? T4 and 5+ armour is roughly even, sou you're paying double for a unit that still cannot fight.

The reason is use spear skellies is: 40 Ghouls cost so much they have to perform. 40 skellies? Not so much.

The ghouls are unlikely to do much more damage anyway, and are less flexible because you can't just throw them away like you can with skellies

Dude I think you oversaw something in their statline: 2 Attacks. And don't sniff at poison attacks, that special rule win games.

No I didn't. Spear skellies deployed in the same formation will have the same number of attacks as ghouls, though it's true that skellies will start losing attacks sooner when the unit is ground down... there's however twice as many skellies....

Poison is good, but you pay an arm and a leg for it

 

[The Sun King]

https://www.vampirecounts.net/Thread-Light-Armour-and-Shield-vs-aditional-raising

check this thread IMO zombies are the best tarpit but thats all they can do.

Yeah I've noticed that you think Skeletons can fight. They cant.

Also Johnny just put it down:

Problem is you did not bring an optimal unit of ghouls to party with. Also all undead units sick in math hammer. Its why we cheat and raise during grinds.

No I didn't. Spear skellies deployed in the same formation will have the same number of attacks as ghouls, though it's true that skellies will start losing attacks sooner when the unit is ground down... there's however twice as many skellies....

Poison is good, but you pay an arm and a leg for it

Yeah, but since Zombs are cheap as dirt I do not think that 10 pts is completely overpriced - plus regarding the fact that there is double the amount of skellies: they both get raised at the same rate... you'll do the math on what is most cost efficient

 

[eggsPR]

Do I smell a math hammer scenario between 50 ghouls vs 100 skellies vs 166 zombies!?! Oh please do... Ill microwave the popcorn!!!

 

[Noobafrass]

I 2nd eggspr!! I want to see this as well.

Though my wife cooks scratch-made popcorn. I'll send you some

 

[Xivigg]

One thing i notice is, in the scenario, the halberdiers pass all their fear test. Correct me if i'm wrong but i think they have 7 leadership (as i think they have) and so, will fail 41,6 % of them.

Assuming they are within the general IP is inferring outside help voiding any comparison made.

In 3 round of combat, they should have failed at least once.

 

[xFallenx]

Do I smell a math hammer scenario between 50 ghouls vs 100 skellies vs 166 zombies!?! Oh please do... Ill microwave the popcorn!!!

Isn't there an app for that?

 

[rothgar13]

But which test do they fail? I think at that point we're talking algorithms to run a large number of simulated combats, and then averaging out the results. That's a bit beyond my limited programming moxie, though.

 

[Demian]

Do I smell a math hammer scenario between 50 ghouls vs 100 skellies vs 166 zombies!?! Oh please do... Ill microwave the popcorn!!!

Isn't there an app for that?

Yes! it's actually a device. I call it..

the microwave

ba dum tss!

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Making popcorn on the stove is OP

 

[jonnoc]

Yeah I've noticed that you think Skeletons can fight. They cant.

Maybe your skeletons cant fight but mine can and have proven themselves over several games.

I don't know where the stigma of "skeletons cant fight" came from. ws2 still hits on a 4+ against almost everything out there except for ws5+ they are still s3 t3 like most core and yes they would usually strike last at i2 but they don't run and if fear is failed theyd be hitting on 3s. oh and to repeat THEY DON'T RUN.

Well i guess if you believe skeletons can't fight then you believe most core out there cant fight as well.

 

[jonnoc]

One thing i notice is, in the scenario, the halberdiers pass all their fear test. Correct me if i'm wrong but i think they have 7 leadership (as i think they have) and so, will fail 41,6 % of them.

Assuming they are within the general IP is inferring outside help voiding any comparison made.

In 3 round of combat, they should have failed at least once.

I just followed as per rothgar and his math. That would be true for the skeleton math above as well they would have failed in 1 or 2 of the 4 rounds of combat.

Problem is you did not bring an optimal unit of ghouls to party with. Also all undead units sick in math hammer. Its why we cheat and raise during grinds.

I just balanced the points and i don't know how many halberds are there in 80 points assuming 40 ghouls is the optimal number. I dont think 8 ghouls would make a difference since halberd numbers would bump up appropriately.

I do agree with you though that undead does suck at math hammer and truthfully if the halberdsvskeletons and halberdsvsghouls were in a real game the halberds would have run as there would have been some raising and maybe vanhels.

 

[Count Matthewzilla]

Unlike the rest of our core, Skellies are a lot more hands on and need more support. It's not that they are horrible, they can work if you try to make them.

 

[rothgar13]

Well i guess if you believe skeletons can't fight then you believe most core out there cant fight as well.

You're damn right most Core can't fight. There's maybe 10 Core units in the game that are legitimately scary with no character support at all. Those are the following:

DoC Bloodletters
Dwarf Longbeards
Empire Inner Circle Knights
Lizardmen Saurus Warriors
Ogre Kingdoms Ironguts
O&G Savage Orc Big 'Uns
WoC Chaos Marauders
WoC Chaos Warriors

Now, all of these obviously get better with support (particularly the Bloodletters and the Savage Orc Big 'Uns), and there are some units that join the list by characters just being in the unit (Beastmen Gors with a Beast Banner BSB, for example), but the point stands - most Core units fight poorly. Skeletons just fight more poorly than most.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

I would not personally put Longbeards or Saraus in the list either.

 

[Count Matthewzilla]

Well, I would Johnny. I've seen some strong Longbeards in my time.

 

[rothgar13]

Longbeards may not be especially efficient (given that Hammerers are in the same army list and that Dwarf Warriors are pretty good themselves), but they are powerful. They'll take most Core troops from other armies for a ride, that's for sure. I include them in the list because they are the true stand-alone force in the Dwarf Core section. Warriors do need a bit of help to get over the hump in several matchups - Longbeards just swing away.

 

[crafty0ne]

Making popcorn on the stove is OP

Well i guess if you believe skeletons can't fight then you believe most core out there cant fight as well.

You're damn right most Core can't fight. There's maybe 10 Core units in the game that are legitimately scary with no character support at all. Those are the following:

DoC Bloodletters
Dwarf Longbeards
Empire Inner Circle Knights
Lizardmen Saurus Warriors
Ogre Kingdoms Ironguts
O&G Savage Orc Big 'Uns
WoC Chaos Marauders
WoC Chaos Warriors

Now, all of these obviously get better with support (particularly the Bloodletters and the Savage Orc Big 'Uns), and there are some units that join the list by characters just being in the unit (Beastmen Gors with a Beast Banner BSB, for example), but the point stands - most Core units fight poorly. Skeletons just fight more poorly than most.

Ya know what else cant fight worth a damn? Pawns in Chess. But I'll be damned if a pawn hasn't won me a game or two before.

I don't disagree with your assessment of core, but its important to note, that for any army, core choices can win you the game if they are used correctly, or lose you the game if used poorly. They may not be there to fight, but They are there for a reason.

 

[rothgar13]

That's right - I don't mean to disparage the importance of Core, just to point out that it usually can't fight. The pawn analogy is a good one. Unlike chess, however, not all pawn choices are created equal, and I'm of the opinion that unless you are hurting for bodies, Skeletons are best left at home, and even when they are fielded, they should be fielded defensively.

 

[jonnoc]

Making popcorn on the stove is OP

Well i guess if you believe skeletons can't fight then you believe most core out there cant fight as well.

You're damn right most Core can't fight. There's maybe 10 Core units in the game that are legitimately scary with no character support at all. Those are the following:

DoC Bloodletters
Dwarf Longbeards
Empire Inner Circle Knights
Lizardmen Saurus Warriors
Ogre Kingdoms Ironguts
O&G Savage Orc Big 'Uns
WoC Chaos Marauders
WoC Chaos Warriors

Now, all of these obviously get better with support (particularly the Bloodletters and the Savage Orc Big 'Uns), and there are some units that join the list by characters just being in the unit (Beastmen Gors with a Beast Banner BSB, for example), but the point stands - most Core units fight poorly. Skeletons just fight more poorly than most.

Ya know what else cant fight worth a damn? Pawns in Chess. But I'll be damned if a pawn hasn't won me a game or two before.

I don't disagree with your assessment of core, but its important to note, that for any army, core choices can win you the game if they are used correctly, or lose you the game if used poorly. They may not be there to fight, but They are there for a reason.

You took the words right out of my mouth crafty0ne. although the topic already skewed from skeletons hw/s or spears I'm just stating my opinion against those who outright ignore the question and give the impression that skeletons are useless.

 

[Ravenheart]

I view skeletons for VC the same way I view my M@A for the Brets, a unit that can hold something long enough to get knights in the flank. They fight the same, cost the same, perform the same roll. M@A have won me games just like skeletons have won me games, all by being where I needed them at the right time. I take sword and board on all three skeleton units, deployed 5x6 increasing in size with MotD on a level 4.

 

[Blutsauger]

Way I look at it is this:

What will kill my Skeletons? The answer is everything. Will it really make a difference whether they have spears or hand weapons?

No. You're extremely unlikely to survive an extra round because you've given them hand weapons. If they're going to die, they're going to die, parry save or not.

Way I look at it, I can raise more guys and my opponent can't. So at the end of the day, if my unit is practically guaranteed to die anyway I think I'd prefer to take some more enemy models down before I do.

 

[Ravenheart]

If skeletons (with either option) actually kill something, I consider it a bonus. They're there to hold enemy units, not kill them. Leave the fighting and killing to the vampires, wights and knights.

 

[Slightlychris]

Spears are okay but being used as a bus 5 wide sword and shield I think are better.

 

[Belis]

i think that the core units should support the hero inside them providing points of combat resolution.
I prefer skellies over the ghoul because they have the full command (and a magic banner if needed), they have armour. The "the planets have aligned" parry save or having the skellies with the spears it makes no difference: they only need to be in combat providing ranks, banner, accept challenges and hold the ground.

However, i prefer the hand weapon skellies... they look great *-*

 

[The Sun King]

This thread is outdated. You should have started a new thread guys