From what I've seen of the new book, it seems to be roughly on a par with all the other 8th edition releases so far, and the balance across all of them is pretty good. Not perfect, but way better than 7th where the game was basically decided before you put any models on the table if you were playing one of the big three.
So what do you think of the new book?
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The Reviler
Zombie
This is the first VC army book ive properly read and im in love, hell ive stopped buying 40k for it
The rules seem to well represent the grim gothicness of warhammer against the increasinglly high-fantasy market, and from a non-rules point of view its a truly stunning book! Vlad would be proud
The rules seem to well represent the grim gothicness of warhammer against the increasinglly high-fantasy market, and from a non-rules point of view its a truly stunning book! Vlad would be proud
Well so far the general consensus is positive which is great to see, and reflects my own opinions
Montesque
Ghoul
Sorry if this was confirmed or denied somewhere in the middle of this thread, as I didn't read the entire thing, but is the Bloodlines project going to be reinstated due to its regrettable absence in an otherwise nifty book?
The bloodlines are still a major part of the VC rules..... especially in the new book, they added ghoul kings/terrorgheists/crypt horrors (strigoi) fluffier blood dragon powers (dread knight and master strike), master necromancers and kemmler (barrows), coven thrones (lahmia), more arcane style options such as the mortis engine (necrarch)..... will people only be happy if they divide the army book into 5 seperate army lists with heavy restrictions and a different entry for each vampire?
Sanai said:
I wouldn't go as far as to say that they are a "major" part of the new VC rules, since it is still pretty much a Von Carstein Bonanza overall, but there are certainly many improvements over the 7.ed book in this regard, and for that I'm happy. Blood Knights are even stated as being Blood Dragons now (not just sired by someone of the Harkon family), and the existence of the various Bloodlines is no longer something that only the more "veteran" players had some knowledge about.
The way they have included the old bloodlines from the vampires themselves into the powers list is in my mind an easy compromise to satisfy players, but at the same time it allows GW to keep the book at the same 96 page format as the others.
Don't get me wrong, the idea is not so bad as such, but it doesn't really allow for very distinctive Vampires. Nothing is stopping you from taking a Dreadknight, Quickblood, Dark Acolyte combination to name on example (old Blood Dragons + Lahmia +Necrarch), and then what do you have? The Bloodlines used to be defined equally (or perhaps even more so) by their weaknesses as their strenghts, and this is what is now gone. In addition to this, you now pay to make your vampire Dreadknight (Blood Dragon), and that's it more or less. There is nothing uniquely available for just one particular bloodline, and all the other special rules surrounding (and defining) each one is gone as well. The Strigoi Ghoul King is admittedly a bit of an exception here in the new book, but it is almost odd the way that he alone stands out in my opinion.
I'm happy to see that the bloodlines are indeed back in the book (the 7.ed book was a huge blunder in my opinion), but I wish that they had brought them back with some more work done to each of them, just to give them some "flavour". Some Non-Von Carstein Special characters would have been nice, and also some new non-von carstein fluff in the history section etc. The way is stands now, it's a bit half-assed as far as bloodlines go.
There are a lot of things besides this that I do like about the new book though, such as the new spells, the magic items section (apart from there not being any bloodline specific ones)some of the new artwork, the coloring of much of the old artwork, that zombies have been "fixed", the new corpse cart rules (very pleased about that), the Bat swarm fix (very good), Dire Wolf fix, the Hexwraiths, better zombie dragons, the mortis engine, not really sure about the mount only option of the coven throne, but I like the model, Kemmler and Krell is back which I do love, etc..
I don't really want 5 separate lists as such, especially not the way it was handled in the older books, but I must admit that I was hoping for MORE than we got as far as the various Bloodlines go. More Uniqueneess to each if you will. The thing is though, that I don't think it can be done properly with a 96 page limitation that GW works with. at least not if they insist on keeping some 18 or so pages just to show of the models themselves.
All that said, I think the 8 ed book is a vast improvement over the 7.ed one, and I will actually be playing the VC's under this new book. The 7.ed one got old sooo fast...
Aramoro said:
If all we had from a fluff perspective was a "generic vampire", then it wouldn't have been an issue, but since the bloodlines have been presented as being so very different in nature etc, I for one find it very uninspiring not to have any rules to illustrate this to some degree.
Furthermore, having such rules creates more variation, which makes the army tactically much more inspiring, and longer lasting (until you have tried every tactic that you cna bother to try). For me it is the same as if they made Chaos Warrior into a generic chaos undivided list. I'd get tired of using my imagination to pretend that it was a Khorne list, if there was no rules to support this fact.
For what we are paying, and for the time we put into this hobby, I prefer not to have to rely on my imagination to give me something like a proper Blood Dragon Vampire that I can build my tactics around. I might as well buy myself a LEGO kit then...
Uziel said:If all we had from a fluff perspective was a "generic vampire", then it wouldn't have been an issue, but since the bloodlines have been presented as being so very different in nature etc, I for one find it very uninspiring not to have any rules to illustrate this to some degree.
Furthermore, having such rules creates more variation, which makes the army tactically much more inspiring, and longer lasting (until you have tried every tactic that you cna bother to try). For me it is the same as if they made Chaos Warrior into a generic chaos undivided list. I'd get tired of using my imagination to pretend that it was a Khorne list, if there was no rules to support this fact.
For what we are paying, and for the time we put into this hobby, I prefer not to have to rely on my imagination to give me something like a proper Blood Dragon Vampire that I can build my tactics around. I might as well buy myself a LEGO kit then...
You don't want to use your imagination when creating armies with your toy soldiers to fight other peoples toy soldiers? As Sanai said all the tool are there to make lists which reflect any of the bloodlines, you just have to put in the effort yourself. If you want your army to be Lahmian themed for example so not put your Vampire Lord in Heavy Armour with Dreadknight and Red Fury, that is your choice.
You only get out of a hobby what you put into it in the end, from a fluff perspective.
Jacques Dauger De Cavoye
Grave Guard
I think the book has plenty of options for bloodlines. Sure the Von Carsteins go tthe big overhaul, but I think it's because they are the most prevalent in the fluff. They tried to take over the world multiple times, and it happened in recent times. The other vampire bloodlines aren't making as big of an impact as the von carsteins did in the fluff, and that's probably why they are there. I understand the complaint about the special characters, but we got Kemmler and Krell who aren't voncarstein. As for the generic vamp lord, I agree with making your own. I don't even like taking special characters, so if I wanted a lahmian or necrarch I would just make it up myself in the end. There are plenty of ways to make your vampire stand out form the other bloodlines as well, and that is in the model, it's paintjob, and any conversions you do. I think the others are right about using your imagination.
Aramoro said:
Everyone in this hobby uses their imagination to a certain degree, that goes without saying. This does not mean however that I prefer to have to rely on my imagination or to "approximate" things to sort of get the vampires our fluff presents us with.
I'm guessing that there are many newer players on this forum who has only really seen the 7 and 8 ed VC books, and for these players it won't be such an issue, since the Bloodlines were in fact gone when they first started playing and they haven't come across the more detailed fluff on Bloodlines etc. These players will never miss what they never had in the first place.
You also have the players who would much rather prefer the mix-and-match vampiric power list of today, simply because it allows one to create some truly overpowered vampires, with no real weaknesses, like the old ones used to have. These players will never like to see any restriction to how vampires can be created and would rather see the fluff changed to fit the riles, rather than the other way around.
Trying to argue the merits of the Bloodline army to these two kinds of players is rather like selling ice to an Eskimo, and I won't even attempt it.
My point is that I'd like to see rules that reflect the existing fluff to a greater degree in general. In the end, the good fluff it what gets my imagination going, but if there are too many contradictions between the fluff and the rules, then no matter of imagination/pretending is going to save the day.
One good example of a case where the fluff really doesn't go well with the rules is the Crypth Ghouls in my opinion. They are living, cowardly creatures in the fluff, and in the rules they are very reliable, very tough (I consider T 4 to be very tough for some half starved "humans"), undead, creatures that is the best CORE option (not factoring in cost here) that we have in the army. They are a very good main battle-line unit. There are so many direct contradictions to their own fluff here (and to ghouls as we have known them in other fantasy settings as well for that matter), that fielding them and "pretending" that they really are cowards is not something I can do and still feel like what I'm fielding are actually Ghouls, no matter which models I use for them..
I think if you have some good fluff there to base things on in the first place, then GW should have done a better job of developing rules that fit their own fluff, and not force their players to imagine things which might very well not be the case at all from a fluff standpoint. I can see some compromises being made, for gaming purposes etc, but I still think that this has been taken too far in many cases, and when this is done I think we all loose out as a result of this.
On a side note, one of my biggest grievances on the new VC book, is that there is not much in the way of ne fluff to inspire us. We got what, an insight into what Mannfred has been up to since the Storm of Chaos events, some new bestiary fluff and that's just about it. Not very inspiring overall. At least half the book could have been put together with the cut and paste options with materials from the previous books. I miss that feeling from when they released the older books where you were presented with a bunch of new fluff that inspired you.
Be honest, based on the fluff from 8.ed VC book alone, how many would even bother to attempt to create lets say a Necrarch Vampire, or a Blood Draagon? There is next to nothing in the book to really inspire people to do so. Vetrean players have already a firm grasp of the bloodlines in their minds to inspire them, which more novice players might have no clue off. The new book doesn't really give enough of an insight into the non-von carstein bloodlines to really inspire people to do them justice.
I hope I don't come off as a Von Carstein hater here, cause that is not the case. I whole heartedly agree that they should be the dominant ones, and that there is a reason for that. Just wished GW had done a bit more for the others as well, to shine some light on them, not just the odd beastiary entry and sneaking in their old "powers" in the general list of abilities, with no fluff added that hints at which bloodlines most commonly have which abilities etc. There is really next to nothing that help define the bloodlines in the book, even though they are technically back etc.
I think it i a bit odd that GW, which generally does fluff very well I must say, have done so little to inspire us with the new book, especially since we are dealing with Vampires, perhaps the most dynamic and interesting villains of all.
El Syf
Vargheist
They could have done what they did with the 6th ed book and have the bloodline specefic perks and penalties (which were free) and then have all the powers available to everyone but at reduced points for the bloodline they go with. Not that difficult is it?
It's not about lack of imagination, it's about Non Carstein players getting done over once again.
I think a lot of us who collect the other bloodlines are in our right to resent the "Von Carstein is the only thing that matters" attitude of the the past 2 books.
At least the old book had the fluff for some non carstein vamps. Now we just have short little entries in the timeline.
A special character that wasn't a VC (and not K&K) would have helped in this respect. The new unit choices in the book are a high point though.
It's not about lack of imagination, it's about Non Carstein players getting done over once again.
I think a lot of us who collect the other bloodlines are in our right to resent the "Von Carstein is the only thing that matters" attitude of the the past 2 books.
At least the old book had the fluff for some non carstein vamps. Now we just have short little entries in the timeline.
A special character that wasn't a VC (and not K&K) would have helped in this respect. The new unit choices in the book are a high point though.
El Syf said:
That's not how the game works. You just suggested making the best, most powerful and synergistic combinations the cheapest. I have seen this suggestion before and it isn't a good one. The best stuff is supposed to cost the most, not the least.
Giving a caster +2 WS should cost less than giving a combat monster +2 WS.
I think what people fail to realise here, is that this is one of the best books GW has ever written. It has the best internal balance I have seen since ABs were a lot plainer (maybe even Ravening Hordes). While I agree that Bloodlines *could* be brought back whilst maintaining balance; I think you would probably have to be restrictive about it like they were in 6th.
The fact is I have made some really awesome and varied combos with this book AND I have the flexibility to chose pure power without any regard for fluff, or go fluffy and still have a pretty powerful option. The real advantage here (and possibly the other thing that is conveniently escaping people), is that this is the first time that there have been fluffy units as well as bloodline powers. You can make the whole army fluffy, not just the Vamps.
The irony is that the people who seem to be on the side of fluff, actually want it to be fed to them with no imagination on their part. That's backward. The fluffy guys are the ones that are supposed to have the imaginations.
El Syf
Vargheist
Given that say a Necrach would be poor in combat compared to a Blood Dragon, surely it would be harder for him to get better at combat related skills. So if anything it should actually be more expensive points wise for them to take. Meanwhile a blood dragon that has devoted centuries to combat based skills should have to pay more for powers that would make them better at magic as it's not their forte. But yes the book does let us have what we want really, just no cut and dry return to Bloodlines. And they should have had a vamp from a different bloodline as a SC to show that not all vampires have the name Von Carstein.
90% of people misinterpret what bloodlines are about anyway- it seems like alot of people think that if a blood dragon bites someone that someone immediatly turns into an honour bound combat monster. It is in fact the reverse- the reason blood dragons are honour bound combat types is because blood dragons only turn honour bound combat types and have a martial/honour bound culture about them.
The biggest place these misconceptions are placed are the strigoi- bestialness/varghulfism/a kinship with ghouls is not a strigoi bloodline trait. The strigoi bloodline trait (based on ushoran) is actually arrogance, intrigue and skill at deception/politics. The monsterism is simply a result of the circumstances.
The biggest place these misconceptions are placed are the strigoi- bestialness/varghulfism/a kinship with ghouls is not a strigoi bloodline trait. The strigoi bloodline trait (based on ushoran) is actually arrogance, intrigue and skill at deception/politics. The monsterism is simply a result of the circumstances.
Sanai said:
True Sanai, but even then I would say that is is not that uncommon that a previously "honorable" knight is overcome by the beastial nature of becoming a vampire. The Blood Knights in general are described as twisted parodies of their former selves, and they certainly don't mind killing the innocent and defenseless to slake their thirst etc.. I would say that for the most part, they have retained their pride, not so much their honor (at least not from the standpoint of their enemies)...
The Blood Dragons that truly stand out, are those that manage to actually keep some of their former honor, not just their pride in my opinion. These make for some colorful characters.
As far as the Bloodline traits from the line of Ushoran, they are now long gone due to the corruption of the Strigoi blood. Not easy for them to recruit from the higher levels of society, to keep those old traits alive, hence we're left with the "beastial" ones of today. I quite like this in fact, as they'd be very close rivals (and very similar) to the lahmian ones if they had stayed close to the origins of Ushoran.
Montesque
Ghoul
wow. Never expected my question to spark such a debate, eheh. Personally, I'm in favor of continuing the project. I mean, if you think the new book encompasses the bloodlines sufficiently, great. Play with just those, and that's fine. But I also like the options that the user created bloodline lists give.
And really, I don't think it has anything to do with "lack of imagination" or anything like that. It's just a way to flavorfully represent an historical part of this army which GW has ceased to provide significant mechanical support for. Of course, since 6th ed many armies have undergone the same thing (lizardmen lost the Southern Tribes variant list, for instance), but I think the lost bloodlines were a real draw to some folks who first saw the 6th ed book, and it'd be a shame to relegate them to just basically strange builds of vampires to anyone not already in the know.
And really, I don't think it has anything to do with "lack of imagination" or anything like that. It's just a way to flavorfully represent an historical part of this army which GW has ceased to provide significant mechanical support for. Of course, since 6th ed many armies have undergone the same thing (lizardmen lost the Southern Tribes variant list, for instance), but I think the lost bloodlines were a real draw to some folks who first saw the 6th ed book, and it'd be a shame to relegate them to just basically strange builds of vampires to anyone not already in the know.
Well said Montesque.
For me personally the original bloodlines was most assuredly what made me enjoy the 5th and 6th ed books for so long, and I miss the aspect of "uniquenss" about them that once existed, both in the fluff and the more varied tactical options it provided. Granted, this is better now in 8.ed than it used to be...
Now it's only the Strigoi that stands out to me from the herd so to speak. I mean, If Orks can have 3 kinds of Fighter Lords, then I most certainly think there are room for this as far as various Bloodline Vampires go as well. They are much better developed lore-wise than the various kinds of orc lords after all. Orcs will also always be very one-dimensional (which admittedly has its charms as far as orcs go).
I understand why GW did't go back to the 6the ed bloodline system, it was too restrictive for one thing, but to really do it all justice the book would probably have had to be some 128 pages instead of the 96 page format that they have decided to go for.
As far as the project here on the site, my guess is that it will be hard to find the support and motivation from the forum users to make a new version of the restrictive system from 6th ed (as the previous project was based on). I am in the process of making a more open Bloodline system myself (ref: the Bloodline Legacies project in the Necrarch's Workshop section of the forum), and although I have received feedback from people that are interested now and then, the Necrarch's workshop section doesn't seem to hold that much interest for the average forum member. My guess is that this was the same for the previous Bloodline project, and the Legion of Nagash project as well.
With the 8.ed book being a significant improvement over the 7.ed one as well, my guess is that people will be happy for a while just focusing on the current book etc.
That's my two cents on the issue anyway.
For me personally the original bloodlines was most assuredly what made me enjoy the 5th and 6th ed books for so long, and I miss the aspect of "uniquenss" about them that once existed, both in the fluff and the more varied tactical options it provided. Granted, this is better now in 8.ed than it used to be...
Now it's only the Strigoi that stands out to me from the herd so to speak. I mean, If Orks can have 3 kinds of Fighter Lords, then I most certainly think there are room for this as far as various Bloodline Vampires go as well. They are much better developed lore-wise than the various kinds of orc lords after all. Orcs will also always be very one-dimensional (which admittedly has its charms as far as orcs go).
I understand why GW did't go back to the 6the ed bloodline system, it was too restrictive for one thing, but to really do it all justice the book would probably have had to be some 128 pages instead of the 96 page format that they have decided to go for.
As far as the project here on the site, my guess is that it will be hard to find the support and motivation from the forum users to make a new version of the restrictive system from 6th ed (as the previous project was based on). I am in the process of making a more open Bloodline system myself (ref: the Bloodline Legacies project in the Necrarch's Workshop section of the forum), and although I have received feedback from people that are interested now and then, the Necrarch's workshop section doesn't seem to hold that much interest for the average forum member. My guess is that this was the same for the previous Bloodline project, and the Legion of Nagash project as well.
With the 8.ed book being a significant improvement over the 7.ed one as well, my guess is that people will be happy for a while just focusing on the current book etc.
That's my two cents on the issue anyway.
El Syf said:
No. Points have nothing to do with real world effort or expense, they are solely a way to balance power. Empire state troops are not cheaper than elven spear men because they are more populous, it's because their stats suck. Zombies are not cheaper than Skeletons because they're easier to raise from the dead, it's because their stats suck.
GW don't look at the economy of making spears vs shields, or training spearmen vs training knights.
Tournaments don't give Tomb Kings more points because they think GW got the economy of bones and bandages wrong.
I finally received my copy a few days ago.
I'm still reading through it, but I have already formed a few impressions:
I'm disappointed by the background section. Yes, it's great to have a more durable hardback book, but when I consider how relatively short the background section is, I would have liked to have seen more. Certain key events have ended up being summarised in little boxes, and that to me is a waste.
Yes, a lot of the information is already available in older books, all of which I own, but for new players coming into the game, they're somewhat short changed in terms of the narrative in my opinion.
The army entries and the army list, by contrast, are excellent in my view. I haven't studied everything in depth, but the wide range of unit choices, and a few subtle unit changes, make the army much more diverse, and you can make it less centred around Vampires if you so wish.
The return of two levels of Necromancer, more Ghoul units, and the reinstatement of Krell and Kremmler, mean more options for theming your armies around forces which are not solely led by Vampires.
Overall, I'm pretty pleased, but a longer background section would have put the icing on the cake.
I'm still reading through it, but I have already formed a few impressions:
I'm disappointed by the background section. Yes, it's great to have a more durable hardback book, but when I consider how relatively short the background section is, I would have liked to have seen more. Certain key events have ended up being summarised in little boxes, and that to me is a waste.
Yes, a lot of the information is already available in older books, all of which I own, but for new players coming into the game, they're somewhat short changed in terms of the narrative in my opinion.
The army entries and the army list, by contrast, are excellent in my view. I haven't studied everything in depth, but the wide range of unit choices, and a few subtle unit changes, make the army much more diverse, and you can make it less centred around Vampires if you so wish.
The return of two levels of Necromancer, more Ghoul units, and the reinstatement of Krell and Kremmler, mean more options for theming your armies around forces which are not solely led by Vampires.
Overall, I'm pretty pleased, but a longer background section would have put the icing on the cake.
Greetings,
personely i think the new book the power of the vampires. The magic items are less in number so the number of combination are reduced.
Also the differens between the terms vampire and vampiric reduces my number of wizzards. Creating new units feels also quit hard.
But that's just my oppinion.
Akira
personely i think the new book the power of the vampires. The magic items are less in number so the number of combination are reduced.
Also the differens between the terms vampire and vampiric reduces my number of wizzards. Creating new units feels also quit hard.
But that's just my oppinion.
Akira
Jagged_Dragon
Ghoul
As a longtime HE and O+G player, this book is my first step into the world of Vampire Counts, and I'm quite impressed. For an army with no shooting or artillery power it has a large degree of variation and balance. I've played against VC in the past and found them to be a truly unappealing army (such reliance on a single hero however powerful, take this or lose mentality).
As far as all the old timers ranting on the von carsteins, I think i'm on the other side of this fence, i love the von carstein lore and characters. feels like the old count dracula kind of feel.
Im sure the limited items are a downer to those who used them in 7e (hey I lost like 6 pages of items in my O+G too....) but I think its an essential change that all races start using a more unified list (omg, balance????)
overall a big thumbs up from me, but nothing excessively OP.
tomorrow my first battle with VC vs Skaven!
As far as all the old timers ranting on the von carsteins, I think i'm on the other side of this fence, i love the von carstein lore and characters. feels like the old count dracula kind of feel.
Im sure the limited items are a downer to those who used them in 7e (hey I lost like 6 pages of items in my O+G too....) but I think its an essential change that all races start using a more unified list (omg, balance????)
overall a big thumbs up from me, but nothing excessively OP.
tomorrow my first battle with VC vs Skaven!