How would you guys kill a steggy with the altar thing on it? On paper it looks like it hurts undead a lot. I was thinking just running a ghoul unit at it and poising it or trying to banshee scream it but i havn't played a game yet so all theoretical i guess.
Steg
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Why i said coach... They dont have many ways of dealing with it...
And get it into CC, then use your attacks on the guy using the engine.
Kill the skink priest, engine shuts down, and you win combat.
Takes a turn, tops... Even if you roll bad...
Dont forge,t hatred... and a 2+ to wound.
KB is just icing on the cake.
And get it into CC, then use your attacks on the guy using the engine.
Kill the skink priest, engine shuts down, and you win combat.
Takes a turn, tops... Even if you roll bad...
Dont forge,t hatred... and a 2+ to wound.
KB is just icing on the cake.
Killing the skink priest is the secret to the engine of the Gods. Some things to remember though:
skink gets a 2+ armor save. This can make taking him down somewhat difficult without KB.
Steg is stubborn and cold blooded, and ldr 9 if the slaan is near. He won't break easy and it'll take a long time to widdle down those 5 wounds with 6T (KB doesn't work on the steg since it's a monster). Meanwhile, your coach is a sitting duck, so be sure to have something protecting it nearby to prevent a R&F unit running in and busting everything up. Also, due to him being stubborn getting a flank won't do a whole lot for you, since after turn one he'll likely be able to reform and face you (and you'll win the turn you charge anyways since you get +1 CR for charging). Now if flanking him puts you in a good position, then go for it, but I wouldn't be too concerned about getting a flank charge off.
skink gets a 2+ armor save. This can make taking him down somewhat difficult without KB.
Steg is stubborn and cold blooded, and ldr 9 if the slaan is near. He won't break easy and it'll take a long time to widdle down those 5 wounds with 6T (KB doesn't work on the steg since it's a monster). Meanwhile, your coach is a sitting duck, so be sure to have something protecting it nearby to prevent a R&F unit running in and busting everything up. Also, due to him being stubborn getting a flank won't do a whole lot for you, since after turn one he'll likely be able to reform and face you (and you'll win the turn you charge anyways since you get +1 CR for charging). Now if flanking him puts you in a good position, then go for it, but I wouldn't be too concerned about getting a flank charge off.
The answer is to kill the priest like Dklyn said. What he failed to mention is that with the new 8th Ed. magic items the priest can have a 4+ ward as well as his 2+ AS.
A lot of Slanns now also run Ld10 rerollable with BSB + Standard of Disipline. Since those Slanns also run Lore of Life you have 1 or 2 combat phases before he gets a chance to heal the Priest and/or Steg.
A lot of Slanns now also run Ld10 rerollable with BSB + Standard of Disipline. Since those Slanns also run Lore of Life you have 1 or 2 combat phases before he gets a chance to heal the Priest and/or Steg.
What about 5 Bloodknights in the flank with the Standard of Strigos?
With a castellan you get 16 str7 with rerolls. Then 5 more str4 from the Nightmares.
It won't get an armor save from the knights, and with only 5 wounds and getting wounded on a 3+, I imagine they could handle it in one round.
With a castellan you get 16 str7 with rerolls. Then 5 more str4 from the Nightmares.
It won't get an armor save from the knights, and with only 5 wounds and getting wounded on a 3+, I imagine they could handle it in one round.
What are you suggesting exactly? You have to allocate attacks ahead of time. Allocating all of the attacks against the steg can work, but the bigger issue is will he let you charge into the steg (especially into its flank)? That thing has a movement of 6, so it's not exactly a slow moving guy. Your knights have to not be tied up in combat with another R&F troop (which will have steadfast and lock down your rather expensive unit). Personally, I would use skinks with kroxigors in there. Skinks are 5 points a pop so the str 7 is wasted on the mediocre toughness of skinks while the krox's are swinging back with plenty of str 6 attacks, but not all LM have that unit 
.
The str 4 attacks against T6 and armor 3+ won't do a thing (barring really good luck).
Your knights also have to survive the barrage of flaming salamanders (which are -3 armor save) and magic of the slann. If the slann is more of the buffing type, then it would be likely to expect the steg to be buffed (high T will ruin your str 7 as would regen) or else why would he not mind the fact it's in charging range of the knights? It has 5 wounds and if you fail to take them all down in one go, your knights are in some serious trouble, 3 str 6 attacks plus str 6 thunderstomp will shred through the 5 of them like nothing, plus the d6 str 5 no armor save hits from burning alignment during the next magic phase.
. The str 4 attacks against T6 and armor 3+ won't do a thing (barring really good luck).
Your knights also have to survive the barrage of flaming salamanders (which are -3 armor save) and magic of the slann. If the slann is more of the buffing type, then it would be likely to expect the steg to be buffed (high T will ruin your str 7 as would regen) or else why would he not mind the fact it's in charging range of the knights? It has 5 wounds and if you fail to take them all down in one go, your knights are in some serious trouble, 3 str 6 attacks plus str 6 thunderstomp will shred through the 5 of them like nothing, plus the d6 str 5 no armor save hits from burning alignment during the next magic phase.
Dklyn said:What are you suggesting exactly? You have to allocate attacks ahead of time. Allocating all of the attacks against the steg can work, but the bigger issue is will he let you charge into the steg (especially into its flank)? That thing has a movement of 6, so it's not exactly a slow moving guy. Your knights have to not be tied up in combat with another R&F troop (which will have steadfast and lock down your rather expensive unit). Personally, I would use skinks with kroxigors in there. Skinks are 5 points a pop so the str 7 is wasted on the mediocre toughness of skinks while the krox's are swinging back with plenty of str 6 attacks, but not all LM have that unit
The str 4 attacks against T6 and armor 3+ won't do a thing (barring really good luck).
Your knights also have to survive the barrage of flaming salamanders (which are -3 armor save) and magic of the slann. If the slann is more of the buffing type, then it would be likely to expect the steg to be buffed (high T will ruin your str 7 as would regen) or else why would he not mind the fact it's in charging range of the knights? It has 5 wounds and if you fail to take them all down in one go, your knights are in some serious trouble, 3 str 6 attacks plus str 6 thunderstomp will shred through the 5 of them like nothing, plus the d6 str 5 no armor save hits from burning alignment during the next magic phase.
Actually the BK's are cavalry so they're immune to thunderstomp
On average they'd inflict 9.1 wounds on the steggy and sustain only 0.6 in return, so they could certaintly beat the Steg in CC (likely in the first round of combat, before any retaliation could even be made). The main problem, which you mentioned, is that the BK's would have a hard time surviving magic and shooting. This can be mitigated to an extent by utilizing cover, bringing adequite magic defence, tying up ranged threats quickly and presenting your foe with multiple targets. Salamanders don't strike me as a huge concern, as they're not too popular and their ranged atack is somewhat unwieldly.
Getting the BK's into combat with the EotG would present some difficulty, but honestly they have as good a chance as most of our other units and regardless they'd likely be useful even if they got tied up elsewhere. If you absolutely need to kill the EotG fast, the best approach would be to employ multiple units capable of carrying out this task, as most have sub-par chances of succeeding on their own.
Hmm how did I miss that cav don't get stomped? Guess I don't face enough monsters or use the varghulf enough.
In any case, my other (and more prominent anyways) points still stand.
1) you have to get it done in one round, or else burning alignment will shred your knights, in addition to whatever else may happen (and the 3 Str 6 attacks from the steg which will do .8 wounds back).
2)If the slann if lore of life (very likely), then taking him down in one round may not be possible as steg could have regeneration or be T8.
3)If slann isn't life, then you could have a bunch of offensive spells thrown at your knights, which in addition to salamander fire, can keep the knights too weak to deal the steg.
4) It's extremely easy to tarpit the bld knights. If they engaged a unit of 10+ (easy to do with skink R&F which I always have with me) then they for most intents and purposes, are unbreakable.
Also where did you get .6 chance to return damage? They have 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound (str 6), and only a 5+ armor save to deal with giving it a 28% to wound per attack, with 3 attacks giving it .8 to wound, which is fairly likely to take down one knight a round.
I think being tarpitted is a real danger for a unit of 5 bld knights, especially by krox's who can easily dispatch of a knight (28% of killing a knight per attack and with 9 attacks you're looking at 2-3 knights down a round.) Even being tarpitted by anything else, if the steg is nearby that means d6 str 5 no armor save hits every LM turn which is really going to hurt a unit of 5 T4 knights. While coaches could also be tarpitted, they can fly giving them free reform and the able to fly over units, making it harder to lock them down. The coach is also more resistant to burning alignment (thanks to higher T and 4+ ward). Even the varghulf gets regen (strangely enough, burning alignment isn't a flaming attack).
I don't really think cover will do you a whole lot of good against LM. Their powerful range consists of the slann and the salamanders, against neither of which cover will help you. Since the slann can use the LoS of the priest atop of the steg, it's hard to find a good hiding place. How do you bring adequate defenses if your standard is tied up being strigos? You would need a hero vamp in there which will cause the cost of the unit to skyrocket, making it a bigger magnet for destructive attacks and ensuring the steg will keep away from it. It also means your overall strat of "having multiple targets" becomes much more difficult as you have more points tied up in one unit.
If you switch out the strigos standard, then the knights chance to kill the steg drops down to 7 wounds, still sufficient but if you have any problems (losing knights, buffed steg or just plain bad luck) then it could fail. failing to take it down beforehand would mean d6 str 5 no armor save thanks to burning alignment which will significantly reduce the amount of attacks you will make, and that's in addition to any other problems the LM phase will present you with (counter charges, healing magic, etc).
Salamanders are pretty popular with my lm foe (and with me) and from last time I was on the Lm forums. The ability to move 6" and fire the template is very handy, especially with 8th edition rules on autohit templates. You can have up to 3 of them in a unit (up to 6 in a game under 3k if you really wanted a lot of them), giving you several chances to make the hits count and in case of misfire or just bad luck. I usually don't have a problem getting them to hit a target since the template is 8" long, it's pretty tough to overshoot. While one may not be much of an issue, having three can be, especially if they get into your flank as then it becomes pretty likely to hit all 5 knights. It's about a 22% to kill a knight per hit, so hitting all 5 means one will likely die which drops you down.
Using bld knights can work, but I don't think of it as very ideal for the reasons described. They could do well at killing the skink (although a kind of expensive way of going about it), which would be a better strat imo as that would mean no burning alignment next phase, even though it does mean dealing with an angry stegadon.
In any case, my other (and more prominent anyways) points still stand.
1) you have to get it done in one round, or else burning alignment will shred your knights, in addition to whatever else may happen (and the 3 Str 6 attacks from the steg which will do .8 wounds back).
2)If the slann if lore of life (very likely), then taking him down in one round may not be possible as steg could have regeneration or be T8.
3)If slann isn't life, then you could have a bunch of offensive spells thrown at your knights, which in addition to salamander fire, can keep the knights too weak to deal the steg.
4) It's extremely easy to tarpit the bld knights. If they engaged a unit of 10+ (easy to do with skink R&F which I always have with me) then they for most intents and purposes, are unbreakable.
Also where did you get .6 chance to return damage? They have 3+ to hit, 2+ to wound (str 6), and only a 5+ armor save to deal with giving it a 28% to wound per attack, with 3 attacks giving it .8 to wound, which is fairly likely to take down one knight a round.
I think being tarpitted is a real danger for a unit of 5 bld knights, especially by krox's who can easily dispatch of a knight (28% of killing a knight per attack and with 9 attacks you're looking at 2-3 knights down a round.) Even being tarpitted by anything else, if the steg is nearby that means d6 str 5 no armor save hits every LM turn which is really going to hurt a unit of 5 T4 knights. While coaches could also be tarpitted, they can fly giving them free reform and the able to fly over units, making it harder to lock them down. The coach is also more resistant to burning alignment (thanks to higher T and 4+ ward). Even the varghulf gets regen (strangely enough, burning alignment isn't a flaming attack).
I don't really think cover will do you a whole lot of good against LM. Their powerful range consists of the slann and the salamanders, against neither of which cover will help you. Since the slann can use the LoS of the priest atop of the steg, it's hard to find a good hiding place. How do you bring adequate defenses if your standard is tied up being strigos? You would need a hero vamp in there which will cause the cost of the unit to skyrocket, making it a bigger magnet for destructive attacks and ensuring the steg will keep away from it. It also means your overall strat of "having multiple targets" becomes much more difficult as you have more points tied up in one unit.
If you switch out the strigos standard, then the knights chance to kill the steg drops down to 7 wounds, still sufficient but if you have any problems (losing knights, buffed steg or just plain bad luck) then it could fail. failing to take it down beforehand would mean d6 str 5 no armor save thanks to burning alignment which will significantly reduce the amount of attacks you will make, and that's in addition to any other problems the LM phase will present you with (counter charges, healing magic, etc).
Salamanders are pretty popular with my lm foe (and with me) and from last time I was on the Lm forums. The ability to move 6" and fire the template is very handy, especially with 8th edition rules on autohit templates. You can have up to 3 of them in a unit (up to 6 in a game under 3k if you really wanted a lot of them), giving you several chances to make the hits count and in case of misfire or just bad luck. I usually don't have a problem getting them to hit a target since the template is 8" long, it's pretty tough to overshoot. While one may not be much of an issue, having three can be, especially if they get into your flank as then it becomes pretty likely to hit all 5 knights. It's about a 22% to kill a knight per hit, so hitting all 5 means one will likely die which drops you down.
Using bld knights can work, but I don't think of it as very ideal for the reasons described. They could do well at killing the skink (although a kind of expensive way of going about it), which would be a better strat imo as that would mean no burning alignment next phase, even though it does mean dealing with an angry stegadon.
I was looking at regular Stegadons and not the Ancient ones, my bad. On average he does indeed cause 0.8 wounds per turn
As for the other options you mentioned, they simply don't have the killing power that BK's do. Many of the obstacles you listed for the BK's apply for the Black Coach and Varghulf as well. The only one that poses more of a problem for the BK's is their poor resillience against ranged attacks and magic, which I already acknowledged and offered tips for.
Given the black coach's great maneuverability, all but invulnerability to ranged fire (ethereal and 2+ ward save vs magic), all the tools needed to tear down a skink priest (KB, str 5 plus d6+1 impact hits, 1/3rd of which should hit the skink), and protection in case things don't work out, add in the ability to hinder a slann and I'm honestly surprised to hear someone recommend anything else to stop an engine of the gods, especially a more expensive option (a REALLY expensive option if you start adding in vamps and magic resist and whatnot).
"As for the other options you mentioned, they simply don't have the killing power that BK's do". How much killing power do you need to kill the skink? I've never been let down by the black coach, or a unit with a vamp inside has worked. Even black knights with str 6 and KB should work out well enough, all of these options cost significantly less than bld knights and don't have the vulnerability to range that bld knights carry.
"Many of the obstacles you listed for the BK's apply for the Black Coach and Varghulf as well. " Not so much for tarpitting, especially not the black coach. Flying makes it impossible to lock this unit down short of a full on charge. Frenzy also makes the bld knights either more susceptible to tarpits or tethered to the lord, neither of which are ideal when hunting a steg. Varghulf's smaller base size (than an entire unit of bld knights) along with his higher movement and less worry about dangerous terrain make him slightly better at avoiding tarpits, although not much.
I don't know what else you were referring to here.
"As for the other options you mentioned, they simply don't have the killing power that BK's do". How much killing power do you need to kill the skink? I've never been let down by the black coach, or a unit with a vamp inside has worked. Even black knights with str 6 and KB should work out well enough, all of these options cost significantly less than bld knights and don't have the vulnerability to range that bld knights carry.
"Many of the obstacles you listed for the BK's apply for the Black Coach and Varghulf as well. " Not so much for tarpitting, especially not the black coach. Flying makes it impossible to lock this unit down short of a full on charge. Frenzy also makes the bld knights either more susceptible to tarpits or tethered to the lord, neither of which are ideal when hunting a steg. Varghulf's smaller base size (than an entire unit of bld knights) along with his higher movement and less worry about dangerous terrain make him slightly better at avoiding tarpits, although not much.
I don't know what else you were referring to here.
I killed a normal steg with my bestigors, so why would it not be possible with grave guard with GW?
Bestigors had the reroll to hit, helmed GG hit on 2s, even better, so that should be no problem. Your unit should be big enough to sustain some damage (manpower and/or regen) anyway, so you can happily run it into everything there is which includes the steg
Bestigors had the reroll to hit, helmed GG hit on 2s, even better, so that should be no problem. Your unit should be big enough to sustain some damage (manpower and/or regen) anyway, so you can happily run it into everything there is which includes the steg
Dklyn said:
I thought we were brainstorming ways to kill the stegadon itself, not just the skink, my bad:slapface: In that case the black coach would suffice.
I think you're downplaying the blood knights and overplaying the coach though. Both should be getting a second turn charge, and in that case the coach will (on average) only have sucked in 3.5 dice, so the chances of it being ethereal are slim, and the odds of it flying are slimmer
With that taken into consideration, as well as the fact that the coach can't march and lacks the swiftride rule (or whatever it's called), it's actually more likely to be engaged by something other than it's intended target than the knights' are. The knights' are also far more likely to fight themselves out of such a detour, as the coach is pretty innefectual after it's impact hits are used up. Essentially the difference between the BK's and the black coach is that one has better offense while the other sports better defense.
Well, the discussion is on how to deal with engine of the gods, and taking down the skink is much easier than the steg , and will effectively reduce your problems to "just" a steg, which a black coach can handle. Using bld knights to wipe out the steg in one swift round would obviously be fantastic, I'm just saying it's often an impractical goal when the game gets going courtesy of the slann and salamander attacks. Failing to shut down the engine on the turn you charge is really going to mess up your knights (and to a less extent, the coach as well).
I think you more or less summed everything up though, the other thing I would tack on is that the bld knights are more expensive (which honestly is what turns me off of them more than anything else).
Another point is chariots do have swiftstride (p.86).
One last thing is analyzing the statistics of where the black coach should be is pretty iffy. There is a ton of variability with each step (# of PD, how you roll on them, adding PD to the pool etc.), and you're also assuming that you go first and can charge on turn 2, which in my xp isn't always the case. If you go second, then the odds (as you calculated them) go up to 4.67 PD absorbed, making ethereal not a stretch (and in my xp, I can't think of a time the coach wasn't ethereal by the end of turn 2).
Turn 2 also seems a bit early for me to attack the steg, but that may have to do with the player. The LM I play keeps his steg almost dead center of his troops (not on the front line), protecting it on the sides and helping ensure the burning alignment gets to where it needs to go (or protective ward against armies with ranged attacks). He also has a nasty habit of using saurus as tarpits for core and then slamming the steg into their flank if his opponent isn't careful. This is perhaps one reason why I have a tough time seeing the bld knights making it to their destination, whereas once the coach has flying (by turn 3 in every gamed I've used it in 8th), it has M10 and it can leap right over any units and complete a charge, as well as free reform and everything else. This makes the coach MUCH harder to lock down than the knights.
, and will effectively reduce your problems to "just" a steg, which a black coach can handle. Using bld knights to wipe out the steg in one swift round would obviously be fantastic, I'm just saying it's often an impractical goal when the game gets going courtesy of the slann and salamander attacks. Failing to shut down the engine on the turn you charge is really going to mess up your knights (and to a less extent, the coach as well). I think you more or less summed everything up though, the other thing I would tack on is that the bld knights are more expensive (which honestly is what turns me off of them more than anything else).
Another point is chariots do have swiftstride (p.86).
One last thing is analyzing the statistics of where the black coach should be is pretty iffy. There is a ton of variability with each step (# of PD, how you roll on them, adding PD to the pool etc.), and you're also assuming that you go first and can charge on turn 2, which in my xp isn't always the case. If you go second, then the odds (as you calculated them) go up to 4.67 PD absorbed, making ethereal not a stretch (and in my xp, I can't think of a time the coach wasn't ethereal by the end of turn 2).
Turn 2 also seems a bit early for me to attack the steg, but that may have to do with the player. The LM I play keeps his steg almost dead center of his troops (not on the front line), protecting it on the sides and helping ensure the burning alignment gets to where it needs to go (or protective ward against armies with ranged attacks). He also has a nasty habit of using saurus as tarpits for core and then slamming the steg into their flank if his opponent isn't careful. This is perhaps one reason why I have a tough time seeing the bld knights making it to their destination, whereas once the coach has flying (by turn 3 in every gamed I've used it in 8th), it has M10 and it can leap right over any units and complete a charge, as well as free reform and everything else. This makes the coach MUCH harder to lock down than the knights.
A successful tactic might also be the Death Lore, especially the signature spell "Spirit Leach" which forces both players to roll a dice and then add them to the unmodified LD. Doesn't remember the LD of the Steg, but it is probably along the lines of 6. With the Vamp Lord being LD 10, the Steg will be at a 4 wound disadvantage from the get-go. Remember that you could also choose to target only the priest. The only issue is getting that spell past the big toads magic defence.
Br,
WS
Br,
WS
If you want a risky but lulzy option, take a vampire lord with frostblade. Wound the thing once and watch your opponent cry delicious tears.
Then duck as he throws his army book at your head, and watch as he kills your vampire lord in revenge.
Then duck as he throws his army book at your head, and watch as he kills your vampire lord in revenge.
i play lizardmen and vampire counts and normally if i use a steg it is killed by a cannon ball but since vampire counts just not shoot i would say the black coach is a good idea you probly have it in you list anyway to get away some power dice of the slann, if a steg fights against something with no thunderstomp and didn't get the charge he will only have 3 WS 3 attacks so nothing to really be afraid off, if the slann takes lore of life what with most lizardmen players is it would be safe to take a unit of 4 blood knights to kill it i think you will easy kill it the first round of combat if you get the charge because you hit on 3 wound on 3 and the steg has no armour safes left you having total of 12 (or 13 with champion) will let you hit 8 of 12 hits if you have the hatred banner you will hit like 10 of 12 then you will do 6 or 7 wound and a steg just has 5 wounds.
correct me if i am wrong with the blood knight.
P.S. sorry for bad english ;P
correct me if i am wrong with the blood knight.
P.S. sorry for bad english ;P
Sanai in my opinion you get the best idea of the tread award ;P
why is it risky just let him go to the steg in a unit of GG and make way then hit because you have higher I and hope you do 1 wound witch sounds posible with a nice build.
why is it risky just let him go to the steg in a unit of GG and make way then hit because you have higher I and hope you do 1 wound witch sounds posible with a nice build.
Questioner
Wight King
Even if you don't use it to kill the steg/skink priest, a Black Coach against lizardmen is a VERY good idea. Especially when a slann is around.
the smardest idea would be to smack it in a salamander unit what he/she will most likely use sinds the rock in 8th edition just like any other template weapons
