Storm Fiends, ready for some hot warplead?

[Infernal Skull]

Stormfiends don't re-roll To Hit, they only re-roll To Wound. (The 3 close combat options re-roll To Wound in close combat, and the 3 shooting options re-roll To Wound when shooting.)

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

Skirmishers are steadfast in forests because, as the book says - "light troops excel in the uneven terrain of woodland". Obvioulsy, SF dont benefit from the "Light Troops" rule of skirmishers. Since this is a comment and not a rule, it does not remove this ability from them, but instead is just becomes another rule mistake in GW list of many.

A SF is a weapon team on a rat ogre. Every weapon team can "pivot on the spot" before firing. Windlaunchers can fire as stone throwers, which can pivot on the spot as well. Since this is a unit, the ability to pivot causes a bit confusion, and is remedied with the ability to make a free reform and shoot.

An actual reform is when a unit leader shouts out the command to the ranks, and everyone carefully maneuvers into place - a very complex and difficult battle action which would distract the unit from a second battle action such as loading your weapons, identifying a target and firing as a regiment.

Skirmishers can make a "free reform". A "free reform" is a special kind of reform that is not a normal reform (which would prevent shooting). Skirmishers are not in a tight regiment and are able to jump around freely to move with ease, even while their weapons are drawn and loaded, ready to fire at a moments notice. SF may not be tiny nimble warriors, but they are great ogres controlled by a specially bred rat with a brain the size of a beach ball. They are not slow like other ogres and trolls but actually very quick - even faster than the average solider. Their weapons are litterally connected to them as another part of their body, they would be able to turn around and fire as easily as you might be able to turn around and blink.

To Fire on the March is an additional rule which allows fast cav to still shoot if making a normal reform, or if marching, either of which would normally prevent them from doing so. In the case of skirmishers, this is because they are small, fast limber and quick. SF unfortunately are great hulks of flesh and metal and would not be able to run and shoot at the same time.

If they cannot reform and fire, they are one of, if not the only shooting unit which would be completely screwed by fast cav and flying units who could make it turn in circles the whole game. If this were the case, they would have 5T so that they arent also extremely weak to shooting and magic. Given that they are a whopping 85 points apiece for models with little to no saves and 4T, making them unable to pivot in any way is a heavy blow for the usefulness of this unit.

If this is true, then the inclusion of skirmishers would have been some kind of an idiotic decision because the writers felt that their models are too bulky to rank up properly. If that is the case, they dropped an idiotic bomb of confusion by making them skirmishers. It makes much more sense that the inclusion of skirmishers was a way to give a "pivot on the spot" rule to them that would make sense as a unit.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Skirmishers are steadfast in forests because, as the book says - "light troops excel in the uneven terrain of woodland". Obvioulsy, SF dont benefit from the "Light Troops" rule of skirmishers. Since this is a comment and not a rule, it does not remove this ability from them, but instead is just becomes another rule mistake in GW list of many.

No, Skirmishers are Stubborn in forests because the book says:

"A unit with the majority of its models fighting in a forest can therefore never be steadfast (unless it is Stubborn.) On the other hand, units of Skirmishers (and lone infantry characters) are always Stubborn if the majority of their models is in is in a forest– light troops excel in the uneven terrain of woodland." p.119

The rule contains two parts: Units can't be steadfast in a wood. Skirmishers and lone infantry characters are Stubborn in a wood. The part at the end is not rule text, it's color text about why models move through the woods easily. If it was referring to the rule "Light Troops," it would be capitalized. The fact that Skirmishers and lone infantry characters are able to be Stubborn in forests has nothing to do with the Light Troops rule because lone characters do not have that rule.

A SF is a weapon team on a rat ogre. Every weapon team can "pivot on the spot" before firing. Windlaunchers can fire as stone throwers, which can pivot on the spot as well. Since this is a unit, the ability to pivot causes a bit confusion, and is remedied with the ability to make a free reform and shoot.

Weapon teams are different models with their own rules. Stormfiends are not equipped with "Weapon Teams" they are equipped with "Skaven Weapons of the End Times" (p.40) and those weapon options have their own stats and special rules. The special rules for other models do not apply to these models.

An actual reform is when a unit leader shouts out the command to the ranks, and everyone carefully maneuvers into place - a very complex and difficult battle action which would distract the unit from a second battle action such as loading your weapons, identifying a target and firing as a regiment.

Skirmishers can make a "free reform". A "free reform" is a special kind of reform that is not a normal reform (which would prevent shooting). Skirmishers are not in a tight regiment and are able to jump around freely to move with ease, even while their weapons are drawn and loaded, ready to fire at a moments notice. SF may not be tiny nimble warriors, but they are great ogres controlled by a specially bred rat with a brain the size of a beach ball. They are not slow like other ogres and trolls but actually very quick - even faster than the average solider. Their weapons are litterally connected to them as another part of their body, they would be able to turn around and fire as easily as you might be able to turn around and blink.

Are we debating what the rules say or debating how you think the models should function?

There is no such thing as an "actual" reform vs. a "free" reform. A reform is a reform: the unit changes position/ direction about its center. Normally a unit can do this once per move, but Skirmishers & Fast Cav have the sub-rule Free Reform, which states that they can do it more than once per move. Whether a leader model issues an order or a brain rat "wills" a hulking beast to do it, the rule functions the same. The relevant point of which is that a unit cannot shoot if it reforms.

To Fire on the March is an additional rule which allows fast cav to still shoot if making a normal reform, or if marching, either of which would normally prevent them from doing so. In the case of skirmishers, this is because they are small, fast limber and quick. SF unfortunately are great hulks of flesh and metal and would not be able to run and shoot at the same time.

Correct, "Fire on the March" allows a unit to fire even if it marches or reforms. The reasoning behind why a unit can manage this is irrelevant, because it's not rules. The fact that Stormfiends ignore "Fire on the March" means that they cannot shoot if they march or reform.

If they cannot reform and fire, they are one of, if not the only shooting unit which would be completely screwed by fast cav and flying units who could make it turn in circles the whole game. If this were the case, they would have 5T so that they arent also extremely weak to shooting and magic. Given that they are a whopping 85 points apiece for models with little to no saves and 4T, making them unable to pivot in any way is a heavy blow for the usefulness of this unit.

If this thread is about ways to deal with the firepower of Stormfiends, I think you may have just cracked it! But if other troops getting on their flanks is a problem for them, they probably need something for support, like a rat dart or some Night Runners.

If this is true, then the inclusion of skirmishers would have been some kind of an idiotic decision because the writers felt that their models are too bulky to rank up properly. If that is the case, they dropped an idiotic bomb of confusion by making them skirmishers. It makes much more sense that the inclusion of skirmishers was a way to give a "pivot on the spot" rule to them that would make sense as a unit.

I can't tell if you're arguing in favor of RAW or RAI, here. One thing to keep in mind is that the End Times books are supposedly written to be compatible with 9th Edition. I hope this means that in 9th, Skirmishers will abandon the silly need for having ranks, wheeling, and maneuvering and can just move as a "clump" again.

But in the meantime, Skirmishing allows the unit to move much more freely. Remember– shooting is not the only thing this unit does. You can also build it as a melee hammer, and having the freedom to move in any direction comes in handy. And pretty much any shooting unit has the problem of light cav or fliers harassing their flanks. Some of them can get musicians and take advantage of the swift reform, but not all. Like I said above, support them.

At the end of the day, they are still way better than Jezzails, which are 100 points for 5, and only throw out 5 shots. A Stormfiend with Rattling Cannons costs 85, throws out an average of 10 shots with re-rolls to wound, and he can move and fire, hitting on 4+ up to 18" (a 24" threat range from his starting point). That's not bad even if they don't get much of what makes a Skirmisher a Skirmisher.

 

[LordTobiothan]

They may not be able to reform and fire but they can still pivot using normal movement and fire. Only way out of their ability to shoot you is to get behind them, which you can't do in one move.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Only single models can pivot on the spot. Units of troops (even Skirmishers) can't.

The Warpfire Projectors are Move or Fire, so they can't fire if the unit moves at all.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

@Infernal Skull

My writing is an interpretation of the rules as intended based on what the fluff indicates. I agree that you are 100% correct regarding the rules as written. But in my opinion, they were intended to be able to reform and shoot without marching, and not be stubborn in forests.

I like the SF, and i'll def be takign them, thats not really the point. My main point is that GW writes unorganized and broken rules. I'm not saying I think they write bad rules, but their rules are often incomplete and unplayable as written, or just clearly not playable as intended. One of the the things that drew me to this game was the fact that the rules "feel" as if they represent an actual flow of a real (albeit fantasy) battle. Unfortunately that dont properly test and within a day after they release new rules people are already finding holes and unplayable rules. If for 9th they simply preserved everything except went through and made all the 8th rules properly playable Id be totally psyched.

You're right Stubborn is the correct terminology. My point was they they clearly didn't intend for these units to be steadfast in forests, as the fluff directly opposes the rule. The fact that you need to review at least 2 pages on separate sections of the book to understand any one rule not only confuses the players - the writers cant even get it right themselves. While the RAW makes them steadfast in forests, this in obviously a blunder of the RAI per the fluff.

While the weapons of the end times are not weapon teams, they are made by the same clan & have the same fluff as their weapon team counterparts. My main point was that weapon teams, war-machines and even shooting units all have an option for reforming/pivoting on the spot. Is there any unit in all of warhammer that shoots but cannot pivot in any way?

A reform is a reform. A free reform is a different kind of reform, that never had to be defined due to its pairing with Fire on the March. Now that they decided to sever the skirmishers rule in half, we are left interpreting that becasue of the rules on page 14, the rules on page 77 - when split due to the new rules for Big and Bulky per Thanquol - Stormfiends cannot fire after a free reform. But this is not the RAW or intended, its the rules as interpreted through 3 sources using logic. The reality is that the rules have not been properly written and this can only be resolved via a proper FAQ. Until then, we will have to go by the "general consensus" as described above without knowing if this is truly the RAI.

What pisses me off is there lighting quick monsters with guns as arms - why cant they turn around and shoot when they can turn around and run? I don't see the point of even making them skirmishers and causing the confusion in the first place. If I do choose to "free reform" I am neutering their ability to act otherwise that turn. As a result, having skirmishers its fairly useless overall - people wont be giving up their shooting for a reform even for one turn, so all thats left is the fact that you can only hit 2 instead of 3 with a small template attack (and stubborn in forests). Just simply doesn't make sense. I itnhk they didn't want them to march and shoot (clearly OP) and they dint realize that they were removing the usefulness of their reform altogether by not properly defining the rule.

There are many ways to counter the stormfiends but the problem is that they have so many setups that you can never know. Will they show up behind you on turn two and charge you with unbelievable S7 attacks and impact hits? Will they melt your face with warpfire? will they stand back and blow you out with poison wind? Or will they do it all? The versatility of setups is probably their biggest strength.

My favorite of them is quickly becoming the Windlaunchers. Many consider stonethrowers to be relatively weak, but thats becasue the true template you are aiming for is the tiny circle in the middle - so you need a direct hit or a 2 in most cases, and you're disappointment otherwise. With the windlaunchers, you dont care about the center, its the whole thing. This is an anti-infantry stone thrower. Very often a couple big blocks of infantry are next to each other at the start of the game - creatign a very nasty area for the template to scatter - even if misfiring! With 4+ and re-rolls, this will obliterate any non-warded infantry in the game.

According to the RAW, they fire as a stone thrower. This means they pivot on the spot in the shooting phase. Having moved dosen't mean anything becasue they dont use BS. Since you never declare a target, 3 of them can fire in all different directions. Where the unit facing is left after this, who knows - but this is the RAW, so I guess this is how we have to play them. If any one of them is facing a unit you want to charge next turn, that must be a legal charge.

 

[Infernal Skull]

Is there any unit in all of warhammer that shoots but cannot pivot in any way?

Yes: Every unit of troops shoots in this way– Skirmishers, archers, Jezzails, handgunners... The only models that can pivot and fire are models whose rules specify that they can pivot and fire. (The only models that come to mind are war machines and the Skaven weapon teams.) Even single models can't just pivot on the spot when shooting. If you have a lone character, he doesn't get to pivot; he can only fire at targets in his front arc. He would have needed to move in the movement phase to turn toward something not already in his front arc at the start of his turn.

A reform is a reform. A free reform is a different kind of reform, that never had to be defined due to its pairing with Fire on the March.

Keep in mind that a "reform" is a maneuver and "Free Reform" is a rule. Two completely different things. It's not a circumstance where some units execute "reforms" and others execute "free reforms." Free Reform is a rule that allows a unit to execute multiple reforms. That's exactly what is says. So, Skirmishers and Fast Cavalry aren't making "a free reform" when they move, they are making "reforms" when they move. The Free Reform rule allows them to reform as much as they want. Then, to be able to shoot, they have an additional rule that allows them to shoot even if they reformed (Fire on the March).

But this is not the RAW or intended, its the rules as interpreted through 3 sources using logic.

It is exactly RAW. Without the Fire on the March rule, a Skirmishing or Fast Cavalry unit cannot shoot if it reformed– Remember they are not "making free reforms," they are making multiple reform maneuvers because of their Free Reform special rule. And if a unit reforms, it cannot shoot.

According to the RAW, they fire as a stone thrower. This means they pivot on the spot in the shooting phase.

No it doesn't. Pivoting before shooting is a rule of war machines, under Shooting With War Machines on page 109. Under that rule, it also states that "each war machine is fired differently, as described in its own set of rules."

Under Stone Throwers is a heading "Firing a Stone Thrower" which describes how a stone thrower shoots. Those are the rules you use when firing a windlauncher. Stormfiends are monstrous infantry, not war machines, so they don't use the rules for war machines. They only fire like a stone thrower:

"To fire a stone thrower, take the small round template and place it anywhere completely within the war machine's line of sight, outside of the stone thrower's minimum range and within its maximum range." Then it goes on to say it can't be placed over friendly models, how it scatters, etc. The point is, the stone thrower's firing rules specify "within LOS" and those are the rules the Stormfiends use.

The Stormfiends don't pivot and they certainly don't pivot to face different directions. Remember– they are still a regiment with a front and flank facings. Skirmishing units don't get to fire in any direction once they've finished moving, only in their front arc, and they can't all be facing different directions. Also, even though they're Skirmishers they can still only fire with the front two ranks, as well.

Sure, once the SF unit is reduced to a single model, then he could pivot during his move as much as he likes just like any other single model and it wouldn't be considered a reform. (Lone Models and Movement, p.27)

The easiest thing to do with shooty Stormfiends is make a 2x2 block. That lets all 4 fire and you can wheel up to about 90 degrees with the 6-inch non march move if you need to "turn" to shoot something to the side.

So many people give Warhammer flack for broken rules, contradictory rules, or whatever, but the only problem is that they are scattered throughout the rulebook, but are otherwise very concise. (Like the Skirmishers in forests thing; I bet most people don't even know about that rule. It would make more sense to put it (or at least duplicate it) under Skirmishers or in the section that talks about being steadfast, but it's only brought up in the forests section.)

Pretty much every issue with the rules can be resolved by following the chain of rules from the unit, through the special rules sections, and core rules. Unfortunately, it seems like not many people are able to do that, or only read partial rules and can't tell the difference between flavor text and rule text, which GW sometimes mixes in the same paragraph.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

You're taking pivot too literally; I was also referring to a free reform as a form of a pivot. I was referring to the concept of freely changing facing before using a weapon in the shooting phase. Every unit that shoots in the game has some way to change facing before doing so. Also a single model gets all the free pivots it wants so it could move and face any direction and still shoot in the shooting phase.

There is zero need for a rule to be found one more than one page. This is bad rule writing. Bad rule writing also leads to the rules not working as intended, as made obvious from the fluff. We are not playing warhammer as intended, but what way mostly intended but actually got screwed up along the way. The writer clearly forgot that skirmishers are stubborn in forests and forgot to mention it.

RAI is the way everything should look in the rulebook. Theres no reason for a rule to not work as intended. RAW means means it dosent look right but thats the way it is. Im jsut saying that "rules as interpreted" is a crap form of RAW where not only does the rule not seem to make any sense, but we have to track it down ourselves over several pages.


There are a lot of blunders to be found in GW rules, especially recently such as the the Khaine Magic. The Wood Elf book is broken - there no way to play the twilight sisters on gwindalor and apparently Orion puts down his weapons and fights with his fists in close combat. Whether or not Wild Riders steeds have frenzy is ruled differently at every tournament.

A stone throwers shooting rules are described on two pages - another fun journey of rule clarifying through the jungle of rules that is the war-hammer rulebook. Pg 66 defines the way all war-machines act. It defines all of them to pivot in the shooting phase. As a stone thrower is a warmachine, it therefore it pivots in the shooting phase. A Windlauncher fires as a stonethrower and therefore pivots. Not that I don't see your point, however this is a chicken or egg situation. This is very similar to the "can a hellcannon pivot" argument that is also ruled 50/50.

I dont really care if SF can pivot and shoot or be stubborn or if windlaunchers can pivot. I just want a set of rules that give clearly defines this. There only an handful of these issues in the books and they can all be solved with one clarifying sentence. They could mention that skirmishers are stubborn in forests on the skirmish rule page.

 

[Asmodeus]

T4 and light armour.......Gaze of Nagash?

 

[LordTobiothan]

T4 and light armour.......Gaze of Nagash?

Everything dies to some spell some where. Your opponent also knows this, and will focus on stopping the spells that wipe their units.

Magic is too unreliable to ever be called a counter.

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

They are toughness 4 with almost no saves. There are a ton of counters.

 

[LordTobiothan]

They are toughness 4 with almost no saves. There are a ton of counters.

Toughness 1 with a +3 to be hit is indestructible if you never get to them

 

[Woolly.Mammoth]

Its very easy to get to them, unless you are forfeiting all offense to march around out of combat. Then you're just playing points denial which isn't very fun.

 

[Asmodeus]

Combo charges, spells, cover, absorb. I think, that we have army quite well suited to deal with them. At least we have better chances than other armies.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Combo charges, spells, cover, absorb. I think, that we have army quite well suited to deal with them. At least we have better chances than other armies.

Unless you put slave units at their side and the general and bsb in a unit at their back like my friend did. Only one unit could fit through and he could shoot then stand and shoot the ones that did. Resulting in a dead unit 100% of the time.

I threw literally 1300 of my 2500 points to just take down those stormfiends and they shot every bit of that to pieces.

focus on dispelling whatever comes there way and shoot the rest. Cover still let's them kill most of a meaty unit if not all of it. A unit of 3 is 3d6 str5 ap magic shots, not a lot survives that.

Plus they beat morghasts of both varieties in close combat even without the stand and shoot as they have the same statline except higher initiative.

 

[HERO]

Combo charges, spells, cover, absorb. I think, that we have army quite well suited to deal with them. At least we have better chances than other armies.

You would be surprised... most Skaven players runs a brick of 50+ slaves by them and keeps close watch on what comes their way. Their weakness is their low Ld. and bare nakedness, but as long as you mitigate their vulnerability with good placement, it's a lot harder to get to them than you think.

You can even get around Vargheists by putting a 23-point Rat Dart in front of them. They move the same pace, it will be an impossible charge just trying to get to the Storm Fiends, and you invoke a Stand and Shoot from them if you try. It's pretty annoying... I play both armies and I can tell you its pretty uphill.

 

[Atrophus]

I really don't see the ratling cannon variant a problem, a miasma or ice shard blizzard and their damage output is drastically reduced.
Now the fire thrower or poison wind mortar types are more troubling in my opinion.

 

[LordTobiothan]

I really don't see the ratling cannon variant a problem, a miasma or ice shard blizzard and their damage output is drastically reduced.
Now the fire thrower or poison wind mortar types are more troubling in my opinion.

Yeah every unit ever is under powered. I can just cast spell X and deal with them.

If you got to pick and choose exactly what spells you got off every turn and were willing to put your wizard in range of them then yeah GG you win every game ever.

It just isn't realistic. Every resource the skaven have would be used to defend their unit deleters. My opponent even brought the +1 dispel staff.

 

[Atrophus]

But both those spells are easy cast, 1 die for miasma especially, and if your opponent is prioritising stopping spells like that, then you can get other stuff through.
And if they stop your other spells you hex the ratling fiends.
As a vamp player we can totally dominate the magic phase i.e.
Black Periapt, master of the black arts, blasphemous tome (I know that doesn't help shadow and heavens, but it boosts your more important vamp spells) casket of souls and heirotitan (if playing undead legions)

 

[LordTobiothan]

But both those spells are easy cast, 1 die for miasma especially, and if your opponent is prioritising stopping spells like that, then you can get other stuff through.
And if they stop your other spells you hex the ratling fiends.
As a vamp player we can totally dominate the magic phase i.e.
Black Periapt, master of the black arts, blasphemous tome (I know that doesn't help shadow and heavens, but it boosts your more important vamp spells) casket of souls and heirotitan (if playing undead legions)

Being easy to cast also makes it easy to dispel. And "getting more important spells through" is a loaded phrase. It assumes anything not trying to hurt the stormfiends has any relevance to the skaven player at all.

and keep in mind you have one magic phase to pull this off. Those spells will put you in range. And you will die.

 

[Asmodeus]

Not neccesary. Buffing casting roll also makes dispell harder.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Not neccesary. Buffing casting roll also makes dispell harder.

Our only ability to buff casting is only for lore of vampires, which while a great lore, not too useful here. And it only gives you a +6 to his +5 to dispel.

 

[Seneschal]

The heirotitan will buff your spells.
Also, miasma has a range of 48" so you can be at a pretty good distance away while debuffing

 

[LordTobiothan]

The heirotitan will buff your spells.
Also, miasma has a range of 48" so you can be at a pretty good distance away while debuffing

The heirotitan assumes UL. On which many options open up. Options for vampire counts are a different matter and is what is being discussed.

 

[Bullhax]

The heirotitan assumes UL. On which many options open up. Options for vampire counts are a different matter and is what is being discussed.

Well since SF are a ET unit that uses skaven weapons of the end times asuming UL wouldn't be that far fetched. But miasma still is a very solid option 30" longer range than the fiends themselfs, hurts them on the BS which is their weak point.
But unless you have a level 4 shadow caster dispelling will be made a whole lot easier.!