Tactic worth trying: GG, Bats and CC?

[Velmates]

Hey.

I'm fairly new to VC and had a real long talk to some staff member of my local GW store. He plays VC as well (since 15 years) and is a fan of one particular tactic.
It contains 2 CC, units of Bat Swarms and a huge block of 50 GG with GW. Since these units are (by some) not the most popular ones, I wanted to ask what you think.

His tactic goes like this: The huge block GG in the center (10 wide, 5 ranks) with the supporting Bats (each unit of 2 bases; one base behind the other base) at both flanks. Further to each side he will put some flank-protection (what kind he didn't say). Behind this constellation he places the 2 CC.
It depends entirely on the bats giving the opponent unit ASL and on the CC giving his GW GG ASF. IMO and for something around 1000 points (with Banner of the Barrows) this tactic is much too insecure since it depends on so much different things (that all can go wrong).

So?

Thanks!

 

[sonova]

Hey.

I'm fairly new to VC and had a real long talk to some staff member of my local GW store. He plays VC as well (since 15 years) and is a fan of one particular tactic.
It contains 2 CC, units of Bat Swarms and a huge block of 50 GG with GW. Since these units are (by some) not the most popular ones, I wanted to ask what you think.

His tactic goes like this: The huge block GG in the center (10 wide, 5 ranks) with the supporting Bats (each unit of 2 bases; one base behind the other base) at both flanks. Further to each side he will put some flank-protection (what kind he didn't say). Behind this constellation he places the 2 CC.
It depends entirely on the bats giving the opponent unit ASL and on the CC giving his GW GG ASF. IMO and for something around 1000 points (with Banner of the Barrows) this tactic is much too insecure since it depends on so much different things (that all can go wrong).

So?

Thanks!

GW staff members arent necessarily good at the game. Undead units are actually better off with a narrow frontage rather than horde formation because you want to maximise attrition warfare. You can do the CC + bat trick with less guards but the whole point of GW guard is that they do not really care about sustaining casualties because they will be visiting the hurt on whatever is in b2b.

 

[Nagashizzar]

Remember that it does not give ASF to the GG, it cancel their ASL from their GW, therefore striking at their I.

 

[Lynks]

That is a very risky strategy that depends upon your opponent's units not having flank protection and you having battlefield control, which is quite hard when you've suck 1/2 your points in a single unit. trouble is if you take a horde, you are only getting the most out of it if you fight a unit at least 8 wide and the trouble with the bat swarms is it's likely they are going to have to perform a front charge, which will remove even more gg from the combat. then because of random charges, it's entirely possible you could leave the cart behind unless your enemy is right in front of you.

GG are powerful yes, lots of attacks from them is better, striking before them even better but all this is rather wasted i feel, when with a unit of 50, you will probably be facing off against other big units so it's unlikely you will completely strip them of their combat potential, meaning they'll still get to strike back and your messing about was wasted.

GG are one of the few things in our army list that we can leave relatively unsupported throughout an entire game and leave them be as they cleave their way through units, hinging your entire strategy on a single unit of them is asking for trouble though. when i take them, i run mine 6 or 7 wide so they are getting more attacks than the average unit but still have ranks. no attacks will be wasted and I've got a managable unit of 30 or so that doesnt scream "obvious target" for dwellers or any other similarly destructive power.

Now I love myself some corpse carts (I havent had a list without 2 of them for a while) but i take them for the balefire, which is truely great and they occasionally tip combats for me thanks to the impact hits (usually skeletons vs a similarly crappy unit like skavenslaves). The ASF bubble is quite risky to play, especially since your opponent knows it's coming and will almost always dispell it, so my corpse carts take a passive role, jumping in when they feel they can and it's safe to.

 

[Velmates]

That is of course true but since the bats give the opponent ASL, you will hit first.

And I know that the staff members are not the best reference. I just wanted to know if someone has any thoughts about or experience with this tactic. He especially mentioned High Elves, which will loose their ability to reroll to hit (but will still go first; just mentioned)...

 

[hairyjeff]

I tried a similar trick against high elves once- never again, I swear! Sure they lost the re-roll, but 1st rank + 2nd rank(horde) + 3rd rank (spears) + 4th rank(pixie trick) with higher WS , albeit onlyS3, but 41 attacks is just too much.




EDIT velmates- your right- ooops, forgot that when we played. But to be fair to ourselves it was only 1st or 2nd 8th ed game.He's slaughtered me regularly since.

 

[Velmates]

I tried a similar trick against high elves once- never again, I swear! Sure they lost the re-roll, but 1st rank + 2nd rank(horde) + 3rd rank (spears) + 4th rank(pixie trick) with higher WS , albeit onlyS3, but 41 attacks is just too much.

If it was a horde, they would have been able to attack with 5 ranks: 1st an second as usual, 3rd for spears, 4th for horde and 5th for Elvish Discipline.

 

[MadLarkin]

GW staff members arent necessarily good at the game. Undead units are actually better off with a narrow frontage rather than horde formation because you want to maximise attrition warfare. You can do the CC + bat trick with less guards but the whole point of GW guard is that they do not really care about sustaining casualties because they will be visiting the hurt on whatever is in b2b.

I think GG is one of the few units we have that don't need to go min frontage to succeed in attrition. They hit hard enough that you'll benefit from more attacks.

From what I've seen people tend to run them 30-35 if they are the lynchpin in the army. That way you could go horde if need or go 6-7 wide and still benefit from deep ranks.

Back to OP's original question. I thimbles a little too much invested for minimal payoff. The GG aren't getting rerolls from ASF (you cant give it to them twoce to counter ASL and then give them ASF) and he has them in such numbers that it doesn't matter if he strike first. Bats are great at stripping ASF from high elves am the like, particularly if you get them corner to corner (you have to match frontage with GG) or on a flank (you have to eliminate their flank protectors)

All those units mentioned have great roles, but the synergy between them doesn't warrant the cost where better options are available (Morris engine costs the same as 2 carts and bays and work better with a GG horde IMO)

 

[lost_shadow]

Remember that it does not give ASF to the GG, it cancel their ASL from their GW, therefore striking at their I.

Maybe it does, but the corpse cart gives the great weapon GG strike first, which cancels out the strikes last.
Now the bats give the enemy strikes last, meaning the grave guard will strike first as their strikes last rule is no longer in effect.

Grave guard strike last, corpse cart causes strikes first and both rules cancel out going to iniative order. Bats move in and give strike last to enemy, now the GG strike first even with great weapons, I think that was the point of this plan

 

[Ohcyt The Destroyer]

seems like alot of points just to get some great weapon attacks in first. why not just buy more gg?

 

[Jagged_Dragon]

not to mention bat swarms probably disappear after the 1st round of combat, esp against hordes or HE spearmen...

 

[Chaos_Born]

What if the enemy have ASF and are higher I *cough*high elves*cough cough*

Yeah this is like an uber point sink to neutralise one enemy unit while his whole army will be against the rest of your 'flank protection'. I won't go for it, but I wouldn't be hugely surprised if someone can get it to work. Perhaps if the rest of your army was zombies tarpitting everything for ever...

 

[Velmates]

Nah, I was not going to use it, since just started playing and do not want to paint 50 of them. I think other play styles more interesting and less obvious...

For the HE and ASF: as long as they are not using GW thesy just loose their reroll to hit as stated above.

 

[Eldhar]

Grave Guard dont need to strike first. Certainly not 50 of them

50 Grave Guard dont need help.

50 Grave Guard is almost 700 points. I think it's too much, of course depending on how people tend to play in your area. If players regularly sport super units, you might need it.

Regardless, going through great efforts of making them strike first is silly.