The Christmas Episode (Doctor Who Spoilers!)
- Thread starter Harland
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Excellent, though I must say I'd rather a young actor...but then again he's 1200 years old, so I guess they're trying to show that. At least they didn't get another William Hartnell (no offence Hartnell fans!) Also they changed another major (possibly) thing. The tenth Doctor mentioned that 'barring accidents, Time Lords are immortal'. This implies they don't age. Well look what happened here. Still, those were the only problems, and they were minor, and at least we found out who the Silence were.
I felt they could have done so much more with the return of Gallifrey and the Crack in the Wall. Personally, I'm getting a little tired of Moffat's deus ex machinas - "Oh, hey, here Doc, have a new cycle of regenerations for being such a stand up guy despite the fact that we're always portrayed as hating you for committing numerous crimes against Gallifrey."
No, it doesn't. Immortality simply means they won't die of old age, or other natural causes. If Time Lords didn't age, they'd remain infants forever and wouldn't be able to procreate - or they'd pop out as fully formed adults. Neither of which are the case since we know Gallifreyans are initiated into the Time Lord Academy when they're eight, by looking into the Untempered Schism.Count Vashra said:
Crap, I've not seen it yet! I've not even read the thread, just clicked reply, and I'm going to run away!
Got to be honest, I thought it was pretty missable. I loved the 'Day of the Doctor' birthday episode, however this one, Matt Smith's last, was a bit of a damp squib. Where was the dramatic battle? Where was the toying with my emotions, most of all how did an immortal doctor die of old age? At least make one of the most lively and enigmatic doctors go out with a bang and a crash.
As for Capaldi's entrance, talk about wet. The regeneration is our first chance to glimppse the new doctor and his personality. If this is what we have to put up with I might wait for the next regen.
As for Capaldi's entrance, talk about wet. The regeneration is our first chance to glimppse the new doctor and his personality. If this is what we have to put up with I might wait for the next regen.
Hm. I might not have said it how I meant it. What I was meaning to say was, Time Lords aren't supposed to die of old age, as far as I know, but that happened this time.
Dimreapa
Skeleton
Count Vashra said:
It's mildly ironic that you mentioned Hartnell, as his Doctor regenerates because he gets too old. So I'd say the above statement is total bunk. Especially as it happened to the first. Incidentally, Time Lords aren't immortal, and it's been a long standing point, although better communicated before the modern reboot. It's worth noting that part of the plot of the Peter Davidson Doctor Who special The Five Doctors is about 3 Time Lords fighting over the idea of something that provides immortality. Time Lords can die of old age, once they run out of regenerations. As the Doctor thought he killed the Time Lords, and they're in another universe anyway, he couldn't get an extension of regenerations (although the master has burned through at least two sets of them).
I thought the episode was quite good. Checkov's Guns and Deus Ex Machina is part of Doctor Who in general, and I'd say this episode is low down on the list of offenders. I do wonder why Moffat gets so much criticism after what, 4+ years of Russell Twit Davies? Where a special episode constituted a gazillion Daleks, Cybermen or whatnot, and oh look, technobabble, plot device, wave of the sonic screwdriver and hey, they've all just exploded in a puff of logic. At least Moffat manages some style and depth to what is the same formula.
I think it could have been better, but I thought it delved into the character of the doctor in an interesting way.
Seen it!
Sad, but satisfied. Sad that my avatar is now officially out of date, and that Smith is gone. Satisfied with what I thought was a great episode.
I do agree I would have liked a "geronimo" to finish, but there were so many references back to Smith's entire plotline. All of it finally wound up, with a fresh set of regenerations from Gallifray (probably grateful 'cause you know, he saved them from the Daleks...). Very good finish to a fantastic Doctor. The clock has struck twelve!
Sad, but satisfied. Sad that my avatar is now officially out of date, and that Smith is gone. Satisfied with what I thought was a great episode.
I do agree I would have liked a "geronimo" to finish, but there were so many references back to Smith's entire plotline. All of it finally wound up, with a fresh set of regenerations from Gallifray (probably grateful 'cause you know, he saved them from the Daleks...). Very good finish to a fantastic Doctor. The clock has struck twelve!
Okay, okay. I thought Hartnell died of radiation or something. Anyway. I'll stop going on about that, as I'm clearly getting all muddled up.:slapface:
So you'll need to change your avatar now!
Unless you prefer him over this new Doctor.
So you'll need to change your avatar now!
Unless you prefer him over this new Doctor.
Have to agree with Johnny.....to me it was simply muddled. AND NARRATION !!!! Say WHAT? So they are going to show 300 years of the Doctor's life in one episode with a cliched and dull narration!? Just sad. And another regeneration set....just no. Going to run for another 50 years? Seriously? That was just an obvious money driven decision. They could have ended the show with dignity....or maybe just given him one more regeneration but a FULL SET?! Even if they don't start repeating (and without inventing new aliens they are bound to) it will still get tedious.
Over most of Matt's time as the Doctor I felt it was too much of the same -----> big scary threat, drag out running around and figuring things out over most of the episode, just as it gets somewhat interesting the doctor presses the INSTA WIN button.
I think the show needs a breath of fresh air...something new and different (no not a new actor, that's not new).
Overall full of disappointment.
Over most of Matt's time as the Doctor I felt it was too much of the same -----> big scary threat, drag out running around and figuring things out over most of the episode, just as it gets somewhat interesting the doctor presses the INSTA WIN button.
I think the show needs a breath of fresh air...something new and different (no not a new actor, that's not new).
Overall full of disappointment.
Amen Aren. Always disliked Smith and his companions (I could rant on how god aweful clara is for ages) but he took the show from 9-10's grim with a touch of humor to a rolling joke on solving problems. Moffats shock and awe writing style is begining to wear thing, to the point I am more surprised when characters do not die. Also compared to the masterpiece that was the 50th I really don't see this episode as anything but cluttered
Count Darvaleth said:Thirteen regenerations, but twelve doctors. Remember the vanity issues!
You're forgetting Mr. Hurt (unless by 'the clock has struck twelve' you were referring to the passing of twelve and not the fact that it was twelve o'clock, as it were)
Dimreapa
Skeleton
Aren said:
As interesting as this is, when has Doctor Who not used this formula? To my mind it's been that way since Hartnell, and I don't think the fact it's still around demonstrates that it's such an awful one.
Harland said:Count Darvaleth said:Thirteen regenerations, but twelve doctors. Remember the vanity issues!
You're forgetting Mr. Hurt (unless by 'the clock has struck twelve' you were referring to the passing of twelve and not the fact that it was twelve o'clock, as it were)
He was the same Time Lord, but not by the Doctor's name. I know technically speaking this is the thirteenth face, but to save sanity when comparing pre and post references to past doctors I think Hurt won't be numbered as nine. Smith was the eleventh doctor when he started his series, it would be rather weird for him to end as the twelfth.
Count Darvaleth said:Harland said:Count Darvaleth said:Thirteen regenerations, but twelve doctors. Remember the vanity issues!
You're forgetting Mr. Hurt (unless by 'the clock has struck twelve' you were referring to the passing of twelve and not the fact that it was twelve o'clock, as it were)
He was the same Time Lord, but not by the Doctor's name. I know technically speaking this is the thirteenth face, but to save sanity when comparing pre and post references to past doctors I think Hurt won't be numbered as nine. Smith was the eleventh doctor when he started his series, it would be rather weird for him to end as the twelfth.
Try as you may, you can not escape the pedantry.
In any case, I expect Capaldy is going to be known as the thirteenth from now on. Time will tell.
Oh, and I think by the end of The Day of the Doctor, I believe the various regenerations had accepted him as being "The Doctor".
Plus "The clock has struck thirteen" sounds cooler
John hurt was a forced regeneration between the 8th and 9th doctors by the 8th doctor to make himself more suitable for the time war.
The various regenerations may have accepted him as the doctor at the end, but they all forgot remember Harland (presumably due to wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff). This means that at the time of the time of the doctor only the 11th doctor knew what happened.
I'm pretty certain Capaldi will be known as the 12th doctor, simply for convenience and the selling of more doctor who watches.
The various regenerations may have accepted him as the doctor at the end, but they all forgot remember Harland (presumably due to wibbly wobbly timey wimey stuff). This means that at the time of the time of the doctor only the 11th doctor knew what happened.
I'm pretty certain Capaldi will be known as the 12th doctor, simply for convenience and the selling of more doctor who watches.
Von Calyptra
Black Knight
It seems like people are settling on referring to him as the Twelve Doctors and the Other Doctor.
The episode, or the story, feels unfinished to me, so I'm withholding final judgement. Were all the daleks at Trenzelore destroyed, or just the ones right there? Given the events of the episode it seems odd that they'd have only had the one ship there, but I don't know. Did the Time Lords close the crack permanently or not? Did Clara still run up and down the Doctor's timeline or not? Presumably, the first episode of the Twelfth Doctor's era will pick up where this one left off and answer some of those questions.
A new cycle? The Twentyfour Doctors? Good lord.
I knew it wouldn't happen, but honestly, I want the Doctor to die. He's always viewed immortality as a trap. And while the Time Lords have always had the power to dole out additional regeneration cycles, they typically choose not to, preferring to live their lives and pass on. I feel like the Doctor is so old now, and so tired, please just let the poor guy rest. We can keep telling stories about the original Doctors indefinitely; I'm not convinced that we need twelve more.
As for incarnations physically aging, the First Doctor died of it. The Fourth Doctor ages considerably during his period (the actor played the part for seven years) and in The Leisure Hive he's trapped in a thing that ages him 500 years, which leaves him looking really old (they reverse it later). Similarly, the Master force-aged the Tenth Doctor into a CG muppet. The Seventh, Eighth and Other Doctors are all also considerably older looking when they go, and the Other Doctor goes of old age as well, if it wasn't the Sisterhood of the Flame's tinkering with his regenerations wearing off.
The episode, or the story, feels unfinished to me, so I'm withholding final judgement. Were all the daleks at Trenzelore destroyed, or just the ones right there? Given the events of the episode it seems odd that they'd have only had the one ship there, but I don't know. Did the Time Lords close the crack permanently or not? Did Clara still run up and down the Doctor's timeline or not? Presumably, the first episode of the Twelfth Doctor's era will pick up where this one left off and answer some of those questions.
A new cycle? The Twentyfour Doctors? Good lord.
I knew it wouldn't happen, but honestly, I want the Doctor to die. He's always viewed immortality as a trap. And while the Time Lords have always had the power to dole out additional regeneration cycles, they typically choose not to, preferring to live their lives and pass on. I feel like the Doctor is so old now, and so tired, please just let the poor guy rest. We can keep telling stories about the original Doctors indefinitely; I'm not convinced that we need twelve more.
As for incarnations physically aging, the First Doctor died of it. The Fourth Doctor ages considerably during his period (the actor played the part for seven years) and in The Leisure Hive he's trapped in a thing that ages him 500 years, which leaves him looking really old (they reverse it later). Similarly, the Master force-aged the Tenth Doctor into a CG muppet. The Seventh, Eighth and Other Doctors are all also considerably older looking when they go, and the Other Doctor goes of old age as well, if it wasn't the Sisterhood of the Flame's tinkering with his regenerations wearing off.
I really messed up there, then.
I did feel there was a lot of unresolved things at the end of that episode, and to me the regeneration seems to be the only thing that really got resolved.
I did feel there was a lot of unresolved things at the end of that episode, and to me the regeneration seems to be the only thing that really got resolved.
Von Calyptra
Black Knight
Count Vashra said:
Hah, don't worry about it. I'm a bonkers Dr Who fan (my avatar is from Dr Who), and I grew up on it in the 80s; my first Doctor was the Third. 50 years of lore is a lot to catch up on and keep track of.
I liked that the episode paid homage to and then built upon the entire arc of the Eleventh Doctor, and I liked how it informed and enriched a lot of those older episodes. I didn't like that some of the plot points seemed rather shaky, or the occasional resorting to telling rather than showing. Moffat has said that he's writing Who as fairy tales, and I think that choice has led to a lot of both the good and the not-so-good.
Fairy tales??? What!! It is a good-and-proper science fiction program, nota fairy tale! I didn't like the narration either. It's a story, not a documentary or the like.