The Cursed Book - Is it all that?

[Tamodan Varison]

*)But the point is you don't ALWAYS want that if my skeletons are fighting something, there's no point in reducing their Toughness, 'cause I won't kill them anyway. If my Ghouls are fighting something with an armour save, I want the 6th spell. But it's fairly useless for my Grave Guard of Blood Knights. Against most Elves, Daemons and Warriors, -D3 WS won't make a difference.
*)All those are HELPFUL. As I said, -3 LD is useful against Daemons. But it won't change the flow of the combat. And even if it does, I might not wanna risk sacrificing 3 PD for it. It can be useful, but it doesn't have to be. So sometimes, e.g. when 2/6 spells are spells I don't want to cast normally. So perhaps I use it once, maybe twice a battle. But then I paid 20 points per attempt.
*)That's too much, as I have access to 5/6 spells without having to buy the Cursed book. And that gives me the flexibility to choose which spell I cast.
*)And when using 2 dice with a lvl 4, the power level will be higher 4/6 times than the Book will cast it on, on average.

So summarizing, it might be useful, particularly if you use a list low on magic. But in my opinion, that's not an optimal VC list but there's stuff way higher on my arcan item list I need more than this rather frivolous item

 

[bigbadbat]

Key word is "opportunity"
You, as a player deploy the book where you want it, and, as a VC player should have a decent chance at outdeploying, so I don't see a problem with getting the matchups you want.
You don't want Executioners re rolling their KB's on your Blood Knights?
You can make exceptions for every instance, for every item, in every army book.
"Ogre blade is useless cuz I'm fighting elves."
"Dispel scroll is dumb cuz I'm fighting Dwarves."
I could go on and on.
These are the vagueries of the game.
I run a very heavy magic list and have found it to be of great value and will continue to use it competitively.
You have every right to omit it from your lists.

 

[Bloodknight1983]

I really like the book. We play an army that has pretty crumby stats across the board on most things, so any oportunity to make your stats crappier then mine or bring down to my level of crappiness, I will take in a heart beat. Tamodan if you want those spells your sinking alot of points into a character to take a lore that cant support your army in a way they need most which is summoning. The book allows you to keep all of your casters with lore of vampire therefore keeping them all in the running for if/when your lord dies and lets them pick up the slack so your army does not melt.

 

[Tamodan Varison]

"Ogre blade is useless cuz I'm fighting elves."
"Dispel scroll is dumb cuz I'm fighting Dwarves."

That's a true argument, but these things are just not so useful. You know that they're gonna be fairly (Ogre Blade against Elves is okay, if you ask me) dumb. You don't know what Cursed Book is gonna do, though. It could very well be awesome; giving those Chaos Warriors S1 for 1 PD. But it could also cast -2 WS on a Bloodthirster for 3 PD. Which your opponent is gonna let through. The "damage the Book can do is just way bigger, as you lose 3 PD. It's not just useless then, it could rid you of the opportunity to actually hex your opponents/buff your troops, in an attempt to do so. It's useless, it does give opportunities, but it's random. It could cost you a magic phase. That can be a game ender in certain battles.

I really like the book. We play an army that has pretty crumby stats across the board on most things, so any oportunity to make your stats crappier then mine or bring down to my level of crappiness, I will take in a heart beat. Tamodan if you want those spells your sinking alot of points into a character to take a lore that cant support your army in a way they need most which is summoning. The book allows you to keep all of your casters with lore of vampire therefore keeping them all in the running for if/when your lord dies and lets them pick up the slack so your army does not melt.

This is a very good example of a bad magic strategy as I earlier described. No offence aigh, mate, but that's just not gonna cut it, if you ask me let's say you get the first turn. You can move up, but you've got no targets for raising or buffing (at least not in the Lore of Vampires). The only remotely useful spell you could cast is Gaze, or perhaps VHDM, although that can be very risky... 1 magic phase pretty much wasted. And than you get into combat. Your opponent knows that, 'cause you're gonna go all out on raising, having Vampire Lore on all your mages, the Book will cast your only Hex spell. Guess which spell he's gonna dispel You're not gonna cast a single spell from the book in this set-up, unless it's a crappy one that won't do much, and thus, hurt you!

The raising isn't gonna do that much. It's something you couldn't rely on with the 7ed book, and that was way more powerful in terms of raising. Most decent combat units will munch through you weaker units in 2 turns, with or without raising. Your combat units, hopefully, won't need it unless you're doing something very wrong.

Finally, the reason why you chose Vampire Lore on all your casters... 'cause you don't want your army to crumble when your lord dies. When that 500 points point sink dies, it's game over. You're, at best, gonna preserve a few victory points, making it result in a solid loss, instead of a massacre. I don't plan on letting my lord die, so I don't make plans on what if he dies. You don't take a second Slann in a Lizardmen army in case the first one dies, right? You want him to kill stuff. Run those lvl 2s and 1s with Death, or Shadow instead. You'll have the Hexes and Buffs you need ready at the right time, and you'll be able to choose which ones you want cast and which you don't, and with how much power you want it, instead of having 2D6 pick it for you.

I'm not saying, replace your 40 point book with 300 points worth of mages, it's that once you have an army that has great benefit from the Book (not all armies do, a Bus doesn't for instance), you'll probably want to invest in 300 points worth of mages, 'cause they're gonna give you great return. And than you don't need the book. Furthermore, Dispel Scroll, Scroll of Shielding, Book of Arkhan and Sceptre of Stability are all way more important, adding some much needed magic defence, or a reliable, always good spell

Finally. I'm not saying the Book is a sucky item. It's great. Most of the time. But I'm just stating why I don't like it it's you're perfect right to do like it. Most of you do. But I think my arguments as to why not to like it are a reason not to take it. Just as your pro-arguments are a reason to take it.

 

[Bloodknight1983]

Well tamaran i disagree with you on most of your points but thats fine. I will point out the main reason i go with lore of vampires on all my characters is mainly to try and get as many rerolls to wound (i forget the name of the spell) as Is allowed which is why I take Heimrich alot so I can guarantee I get that spell. That spell linked with a corpse cart giving them all ASF and a casting of Danse macabre (i take that book to) and Ive had skeletons chew through a 20man block of chaos warriors. Is that streak of luck the norm, absolutely not but it does happen. I also always have a target for summoning. If im not running helmrich im running a necro with master of undead or i will summon blocks of zombies, a magic turn is only wasted if you dont know what your doing.

 

[Demian]

Well I know this much:

Including the Cursed Book will give you an opportunity to play in a certain way. That means you will play Points denial & Hunt/Snipe game.

Because: Hexes will not make any of our Units auto-win combats (like Mindrazored Dark Elves), it will prevent enemies from stomping on too many zombies. That's just it.

Our Special/Rare Units will do the lifting, with Regen, Screams, Ethereal blocks, hunters, etc. Our Characters can go toe to toe with most Monsters & below. Only the most specialized combat-capable Units have a chance to kill them, and that's what zombies are for.

So, as Johnny said in another tread, you can use curses to deter charges/combats. Of course, if your opponent outsmarted you and got his big killy Unit right in front of your General's Unit, you will need more than just a hex to stop it. You must use The Hex that will save your game, and there is where our specialized wizards get in.

All in all, Cursed Book is just a tool, a very annoying and effective (at annoying) tool. It's not mandatory to use and it does make a difference between loosing too many zombies or stealing at least 2 dispel dice. And if you like to wage war like that, then the Book is a very cheap and reasonable item to use.

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Also the use of the book every turn is not mandatory.

As for your Thirster Example why not just target his I and slap him with a purple sun?

Also why in gods name are you pointing the book at a thirster in the first place?! It is used for knocking combat blocks, not lone models.

The book sucks if you use it against any unit. The book rocks socks if you use it against the correct units (Heavy Cav, Combat Blocks/Hordes, Ogre units ect).

 

[Weibz]

Ok... I'll go back to the original item I disagree with. That the book can't (shouldn't) be used competitively. I really disagree with that statement. No, I cannot determine which spell is going to be cast in that given moment, nor can I know if I'm going to cast Miasma on 3 PD. You are looking at the book in the most negative way.


There are many things I can count on with this book such as getting off a hex spell at a target yet to be determined, and I'm most likely going to bleed some of my opponents power dice. This is the book's intention! I have used this book to just get off hexes on troops (not single monsters all that often but everything is situational) preemptively on opponents charging/moving forward to me. To scare them into not charging the unit forward, or making them think twice if they want to move their unit up to the front line, buying time. People do this with Lore of Life all the time with using regeneration spells defensively. The fact I'm casting A hex is good enough!

It was mentioned earlier about just taking a couple lvl 1 or 2 casters instead of the book. What? Sorry, but our casters are REALLY expensive, you randomly generate their spells so you might flop that as well making it really hard to get those Controllable hexes you are desiring. Adding +2 to your cast is not going to get your spell cast vs. a Lvl 4 dispeller most cases. He's just going to match the amount of dice you roll more often than not, and take it out right then. Not much lost on his side. Especially, if you use it at the "right time". I refer to the character carrying the book as my 1.5 caster, because he is way more bang for his buck than splitting him into 2 expensive counterparts. The book auto casts it right? Lvl 2's if used with lower difficulty spells have a higher chance of failure than normal casters unless you put all your dice into the roll. Then you incure miscast problems. The book's caster has no chance of miscast or failure, so he will get another cast if he wants it. I have seen so many opponent flop the roll, or underestimate the difficulty of the spell. Perfect example! Withering was cast on 2 PD from me. Opponent decides he only wants to match the dice I put into it right? He needs a 9 rolled to even match the score! Events like that happen more often than not! Only because people panic a bit inside! FEAR!!!! ITS WHAT OUR ARMY DOES EVEN IN THE REAL WORLD! (jk)

The other thing is... in competitive play you want assurances with statistics right? I keep seeing the same arguement. Well... I'm going to lose 3 PD to Miasma. Yes... that is possible... it is also possibly you could flop a roll in a combat, or Miscast into the warp every time. You have just as much of a chance to cast Miasma on 3 dice than you do to cast withering on 1 dice. You can't just expect the worst to happen every time. Law of Mathammer states that everything equals out in the end and that you should expect that the 3 pd miasma is only going to happen once in a blue moon. (made law of mathammer up but you get my point)
Just like bat, Demain, and Johnny said, "You don't have to use it every phase." be smart about it, and it changes battles!

 

[Tamodan Varison]

I thought this discussion was pretty much finished, but since I feel the post above is very much adressed at my earlier comments only, I'll react

No, I cannot determine which spell is going to be cast in that given moment, nor can I know if I'm going to cast Miasma on 3 PD. You are looking at the book in the most negative way.

You took my entire 3 posts, about a page long in Word, and reduced them to "You are looking at the book in the most negative way". That's not, I repeat NOT true. That's the platitude you could turn my posts into. What I'm actually saying, is that the book is very random, and therefore, unreliable. I only mentioned miasma once or twice in all my posts. Yet you pick that very small example to thematize my posts. Debating 101 It is something I can find quite a couple of more times through your post, Weibz.

What? Sorry, but our casters are REALLY expensive

A Lvl 1 Necro is in fact the cheapest mage in Warhammer. He has access to 2 of the best lores in Warhammer. So to say he's really expensive is not just a platitude, but flat out wrong

, you randomly generate their spells so you might flop that as well making it really hard to get those Controllable hexes you are desiring

?ot if you just go for the signature spell. Imagine 3 lvl ones on Death in a unit with a Vampire Lord.
*) If they snipe but a single character, they've most likely made back their entire point allowance.
*) That's 3 fairly cheap redirectors you bought yourself there
Or if you pick Vampires, you can reliably spam IoN with support of a mortis engine with just one dice. That works even better when running a level 2. That also solves the randomness problem. 2 lvl 2 wizards can reliably grab any spell you'd like in the lore.

Adding +2 to your cast is not going to get your spell cast vs. a Lvl 4 dispeller most cases.

The standard deviation on a 2 dice casting roll is higher than 2, making this statement pointless. Wheter or not he's going to dispell it or not with 2 dice is gonna depend on your rolls, not the +2. It helps, but this statement is mathematically pointless, since you can only talk about reliably dispelling, when you have a casting roll also, it is fairly contradictory with a phrase later in your post, where your opponents use 2 dispel dice to dispel a spell; hoping to roll a 9! Use maths all the time, or never. Not just when it suits you there's no underestimating the chance of dispelling a 9 with two dice, right. Definately not when you can calculate the chances of a lvl 4 dispelling a lvl 2's spell both on two dice

Then you incure miscast problems.

With a 65 point mage... That's basically no risk at all. Consideing you, when you want to play safe, cast the spells with more dice later on.

You can't just expect the worst to happen every time.

Yes, but I can plan for it (1) and reduce the risks of it happening (2). That's what I'm talking about, not (3) the "disaster" that happens if it does, which you seem to focus on.

Law of Mathammer states that everything equals out in the end

No, it doesn't. What you're talking about is actually called "the law of large numbers", and the amount of (important) dice rolls in a Warhammer game is way too low for that to apply It's just, plain not true...

and that you should expect that the 3 pd miasma is only going to happen once in a blue moon.

Once every 36 times. The same chances of miscasting on 2 dice, which you, earlier in your post, did discribe as a "risk"

Just like bat, Demain, and Johnny said, "You don't have to use it every phase." be smart about it, and it changes battles!

Having Bat, Demain and Johnny agree with you isn't an argument in itself. Galileo was right, not the pope furthermore, I'm not really disagreeing with them anyway (which makes the Galileo-Pope analogy a good one). I'm not saying it's a bad item. I'm really not. I'm explaining why I don't use it, and why I think it's a bad item. You can use it to good extent, and change battles with it. But I'd rather have my tactical skills change the battle than an - in the end - RANDOM dice roll, which might as well go bad for you. Yeah, the chances are slim. But too high to risk in my opinion. But it doesn't have to be that way for you.

Greetz,

T

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Does this make me the pope? If so where is my golden toilet seat?!

Also Goblin mages are cheaper... But I will let it slide

 

[Tamodan Varison]

Does this make me the pope? If so where is my golden toilet seat?!

That'd be John th XIXth, I believe yeah

Also Goblin mages are cheaper... But I will let it slide

I knew the moment I wrote that, I was taking a risk... nice catch!

 

[Bloodknight1983]

we should have a day where we all sign on and we throw as many questions as we can think of at johnny about warhammer and to be fair we give him 5 seconds to answer each question. If he gets a question wrong the person that lives nearest to him will smack him with a stick

 

[Chaos_Born]

Wow Tam, that's some good arguing you got going on there. I think, just think, you might have made Weibz cry. I certainly did anyway

 

[Weibz]

Well, you're wrong on a couple of points.

1) It wasn't directed at you. I haven't read this post in a while. When I read it in full, in one sitting, and I had a bunch of things to say. Obviously. Chill dude on the assualt. I've also read a couple of other posts on this forum about this item where people say the same thing over and over again. They tend to harp on the negative giving newer players/members to the community a really bad feel for it. Yes, it's generalizing. This community is a pretty friendly place. Chill. I'll try, and ignore obviously aggressive tone you are setting. Except for... Debate 101, people are going to disagree with you and possibly see things from different angles.

2) I understand its how you feel its to big of a risk, but you are saying it has no place in competitive play. Which I do not agree on. I've been playing with this item for a while in a competitive environment. Most players of different armies have trouble countering it. It can be used in a different manner than predicting the product produced from the book. I'm saying the fact that you can deal a Hex out, no matter which Hex it may be, ends up either bleeding their dice, or allows you to pick a decent unit to hex. Figuring out which is optimal requires gaining experience with the item as it does with all gameplay. Strategies like using it early to deter charging/movment. Nowhere in the statements above did I reference which spell was coming out. Do you atleast agree with me on this point? Yes or no? And if you do, isn't that fulfilling your idea of using tactical skill of assurances to believe in the statement in bold?

3 death necros huh... So, you're going to use your entire pool of dice to get those off? Also, addressing the fear of miscasting. Most of those results make you lose additional dice. Ending your magic phase before it can even start. Yes, that's a big risk that I would sooner incur the penalty of losing 3 dice to Miasma. You know what the difference is between you and I? I'm not going to say thats the worse strat for competitive play. If it works. GREAT! Explain your strat (in a different post please) so we can all benefit from your experiences.

 

[bigbadbat]

I'm going to chime in here...
Tam, (I love that nickname) You're a smart dude. I've read many of your posts and THOROUGHLY enjoyed reading your batrreps. Thanks for those!

Midway through this thread you CHALLENGED folks to change your mind. That's when I posted. You nit picked every part of what I said and I was just voicing my opinion. It seems to me you just want to argue and nit pick every aspect of each person's OPINION. Hopefully all my punctuation and grammar and spelling is correct lest that be attacked next. I thought every angle was beaten into submisssion when....

But I'd rather have my tactical skills change the battle than an - in the end - RANDOM dice roll, which might as well go bad for you. Yeah, the chances are slim. But too high to risk in my opinion. But it doesn't have to be that way for you.

Greetz,

T

The entire game is based often on a few random (EVERY SINGLE ONE IS!) dice rolls. You, I know, are well aware of this. So it seems your distaste for the book should be right up there with the game itself.
The book has never lost or won me a game, but sure gave me some options, albeit vague as they are, midgame - where in a battle of two experienced foes, the game is often won or lost. At XX points, I find it a steal. I've spent more on magic items, let alone units, or characters, that have done less than the book in the grander scope of the game.

Cheers and much respect,
BBB

 

[Tamodan Varison]

First of all, I apologize to anyone I offended with an unwanted argressive tone. I think this to be a friendly argument; and I surely did not mean to make anyone cry, to speak with CB! Particularly to Weibz I apologize. When rereading my post (not entirley, that'd take too long ), I did indeed argue a bit harsly over there. The debate 101 comment is a prefect example of a debate 101 comment

Second of all, I certainly don't wanna change anyone's mind about the Cursed Book being an excellent item. If you can makie it work, excellent. I'm just hoping that by taking a different stand, and even playing the Devil's advocate a little (I completely agree with Weibz #2 comment!) I provoked you to think a little, and not just accept follow the general consensus, e.g. CB = OK I don't mean to nitpick (what's nitpicking anyway?) anyone's opinion. You (particularly Weibz counts #2 and #3) have at least make me reconsider my objections to the book. Which is the target of every single argument between adults, I suppose, to dare and take a look at the other guy's perspective.

One last tactical note. To BBB: I absolutely like Warhammer. Reliability however, stems from a removal of as many random elements as possible, thus eliminating the risk of your plan failing. Why is Teclis horribly overpowered? 'cause there's no risk to using him. You can guarantee the power dice to guarantee a game changing spell, with no risk of miscasts involved. He is reliable. 'cause there's no risk involved. You want to rely on tactics, not on dice to win battles, right and btw, there indeed isn't a single grammar mistake in your post. Wanna take a look at mine?

To quote the beatiful sentence by BBB (not the beautiful BBB!)

Much respect!

Tam

 

[Johnny-Crass]

we should have a day where we all sign on and we throw as many questions as we can think of at johnny about warhammer and to be fair we give him 5 seconds to answer each question. If he gets a question wrong the person that lives nearest to him will smack him with a stick

I think that would be Yorga. And a Warhammer Lightning Round? That sounds fun as all hell.

 

[RobTheWise]

Interesting read.

I enjoy taking the Cursed Book. It adds another degree of randomness to the game, and random items are fun! It's a fun item to run with because, it can sometimes screw you over, but it can also give you a huge advantage in the magic phase. It clearly seems to be a bit of marmite item. I personally am in the "Book is great" camp.

I do think it is a genuinely good item. I recommend taking it on a level 1 Deathromancer. 100 points for a character sniper that puts random hexes on things. awesome.

If you are unsure about it, then simply run it for a few games and see what you think!

 

[Bloodknight1983]

we should have a day where we all sign on and we throw as many questions as we can think of at johnny about warhammer and to be fair we give him 5 seconds to answer each question. If he gets a question wrong the person that lives nearest to him will smack him with a stick

I think that would be Yorga. And a Warhammer Lightning Round? That sounds fun as all hell.

I noticed how you did not comment on the being smacked with a stick bit

 

[Weibz]

That visual is awesome by the way. Good job at winning at life.

 

[Tamodan Varison]

I'm very glad no-one suggested beating me with a stick. Unlike Johnny, I'm not 11 feet tall. tongue

 

[Fluffytemplar]

I just wanted to get some stuff in regarding the competitiveness of the CB.

Regarding reliability, it's actually much more reliable than simply casting the spells in the first place. Since the book goes off automatically you never have to worry about possibly failing to cast. And while the argument can be made for a level 4 casting a 13+ withering on two dice, you're more likely to use 3 anyway and could still fail.

Since half the CB spells are from shadow add to that the difficulty of getting a level 4 shadow in the first place. It's basically impossible at "normal" point levels. So if we compare the book to a level 2 then Miasma is the only spell on there I would ever risk throwing less than 3 dice at in the first place. And the book guarantees the cast for an average cost of 2 dice. In terms of casting, the book is much more cost effective than simply throwing PD at a spell.

Next is the randomness of which spell you get. There are VERY few situations where I would use the book that any one of the spells would be useless. If you find this to be the case you're using it wrong. I would find it far more likely to fail a 2-3 dice cast of Enfeebling Foe from my level 2 than to find myself in a situation where any of the CB spells would be "useless". For a relatively small point and PD cost the CB gives you something you will DEFINITELY want at some point in the game whatever spell you happen to roll.

And as an added bonus 4/6 of the spells are RIP. Add in Curse of years and/or another RIP from your shadow or death caster and your opponents are spending way too much during their own phase to stop the spells. With the periapt this gives you more PD during your own phase to keep hexing your opponent. This isn't perfect but the potential for magic defense here is huge. Does your opponent want to cast spells this turn or fix their Ld6 general AND their T1 reiksguard?

The cursed book is an easy 1+ in all my armies. Hopefully this has shed some light on why it can be seen as a very competitive option and not just something to mess around with in a "fun" game.

 

[meowser]

And as an added bonus 4/6 of the spells are RIP.

3/6; withering, enfeebling, d&d. miasma, cotmw, and soulblight are not RiP

 

[Smacula]

I used it for the first time this weekend against dark elves in two 2000 point games. I put it on a hero vamp that was with some ghouls leading a flank advance. The first game it did nothing, I rolled the reroll 6s spell, (the name escapes me at the moment). It just was not effective enough and wouldn't give me the stat reducing hexes, though my dice were killing me all game.

The second game I played, holy hell. Reducing their WS and their already awful toughness was just epic. Once I started rolling Miasma, and the Withering, my opponent panicked and started throwing all sorts of dispell dice at it, which let me get Invocation and Vanhel's off. The fact that I only had to sacrifice a single power die for each was a bonus. The second game more than made up for how terrible it was in the first. I will be keeping it in my list from now on, though given how bad it was in the first game, I see why some people are hesitant to take it. But when it pays off, it's pretty good.

 

[Weibz]

Just trying it out, and learning to use it at the right times I think is the crucial part. Just using it every phase you can be a waste. You need to structure out your dice on what you want to cast in the phase. As in all Warhammer games, everything is situational. The buffs and Miasma (from a possible shadow caster you have) are all you really have the dice for in that turn making the book a less optimal. Other times you'll try to bleed their dice to make sure you get off a vanhels to angle a good flank charge. If the hex makes it through it then turns into which unit you place it on. Just takes time and fiddling.