I would agree with that I think. It's ok but I wouldn't be using it in a streamlined list either. The rod of flaming death is awesome and I would disagree that it's worse then the book by a long mile. It has amazing preventative qualities and the thought of casting it on fleeing units in the 8th ed point denial meta is brilliant. If that unit rallies they have to reform, which is movement. If they fail, they still move. Love that item.
The Cursed Book
- Thread starter spydertau
- Start date
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The masquerade of murder returns! A new game of Vampires Amongst Us has begun. Unmask the killers, trust no one, and try to survive the night. Find out more and sign up now!
N.I.B I would have to disagree with your argument about adding the necro as points and reliability.
The necro or Thrall i would think would be in your list from the get go. I think in a lot of tourneys of VC that will play will run zombie screens. That said, the more wizards the better to get off those IoNs. I run a combat lord, Necro, and a Master necro as my casters. all with IoN, and have the room for a dispel scroll, Black perlapt, and a CB. after the Hex goes off you better believe im casting a ton of IoNs my enemy is gonna have to leave dice for.
Which brings me to my second point. Reliability. You know you are doing some sort of Debuff on your opponent. all the hexs mostly add CR like it was stated above whether it be offense, or defense. the one I know im going to be hoping it doesnt land on is Doom and Darkness. That means to really benefit my unit, they have to win combat rather than helping with the combat(Not saying D&D is a bad spell, its awesome! but used with Skellies it could suck).
Another point is the sequence of events. (if im reading this right) you sac the PD, find out which spell is being cast, THEN pick your target. I do agree though you can't rely on something like thinking your unit with 3 banshees in it will get that doom and darkness off on the enemy at the right time. Because if you're playing it like that then you better invest in Death rather than the book for that reliability.
The necro or Thrall i would think would be in your list from the get go. I think in a lot of tourneys of VC that will play will run zombie screens. That said, the more wizards the better to get off those IoNs. I run a combat lord, Necro, and a Master necro as my casters. all with IoN, and have the room for a dispel scroll, Black perlapt, and a CB. after the Hex goes off you better believe im casting a ton of IoNs my enemy is gonna have to leave dice for.
Which brings me to my second point. Reliability. You know you are doing some sort of Debuff on your opponent. all the hexs mostly add CR like it was stated above whether it be offense, or defense. the one I know im going to be hoping it doesnt land on is Doom and Darkness. That means to really benefit my unit, they have to win combat rather than helping with the combat(Not saying D&D is a bad spell, its awesome! but used with Skellies it could suck).
Another point is the sequence of events. (if im reading this right) you sac the PD, find out which spell is being cast, THEN pick your target. I do agree though you can't rely on something like thinking your unit with 3 banshees in it will get that doom and darkness off on the enemy at the right time. Because if you're playing it like that then you better invest in Death rather than the book for that reliability.
LordUnderlord
Skeleton
Weibz said:
Those items + necro lord + necro hero come to 380 points. You can only invest so many points into magic until it starts to yield diminishing returns. Your 380 point investment is probably only slightly more effective than a 200 point one.
So basically what I'm saying is that I don't find your build particularly efficient and so I don't see the merit of any strategy you'd employ with it.
I actually kind of like multiple casters in a VC army. Having multiple shots at IoN per turn is something that's very hard to hit diminishing returns on, and that way you can carry multiple Arcane Items (for example, my army features the Black Periapt, the Dispel Scroll, and the Staff of Damnation).
On topic with the Cursed Book... I think it's a pretty good item, and you could talk me into it being situationally more effective than the Staff, but the Staff is more consistent, IMO, which is why I've chosen it.
On topic with the Cursed Book... I think it's a pretty good item, and you could talk me into it being situationally more effective than the Staff, but the Staff is more consistent, IMO, which is why I've chosen it.
I'm not sure I follow you, or maybe you're not following meWeibz said:
My point is that yes, one necromancer is mandatory, to carry a scroll for a combat kitted lord. A second necromancer is redundant in an optimized build and thus adds his cost to the Cursed Book. That is how I look at it.
Furthermore, a Vampire Lord + Master Necromancer is not optimized. Your combat lord can be a lvl 4. If you keep him at lvl 1 and buy a lvl 4 Master Necro, you in fact end up paying 95 points more for those four levels of magic, PLUS you have to gimp your combat lord. Just to be able to carry around an overcosted Black Periapt? No thanks.
Skellies? Ugh. Why are they in your list?
Reliability? I see you agree with me that you cannot form a list/battleplan around the random hexes from CB, other than 'great to suck out dispel dice with'. Sure most of them help you in combat, but it's too blunt a tool to fit into a lean, mean, tournament machine. In my humble opinion of course.
I think there's something to be said for the extra security of keeping your L4 the heck away from combat by making him a Master Necromancer. Vampire Lords are nice and fighty, but they are not invincible by any stretch of the imagination, and if you lose your combat monster AND your L4 (because they are one and the same), well, it's pretty safe to say that game's over.
And Skellies aren't all bad, provided you're using them as anvils (and thus bring appropriate hammers). I actually was running some numbers on them recently, and I was surprised at how well they held up against some matchups I thought were hideous for them.
And Skellies aren't all bad, provided you're using them as anvils (and thus bring appropriate hammers). I actually was running some numbers on them recently, and I was surprised at how well they held up against some matchups I thought were hideous for them.
LordUnderlord
Skeleton
rothgar13 said:
A vampire lord really only has to worry about killing blow and a select few enemy combat lords. Asides from those things he can reliably take almost anything on. The risk of sending him into close combat is negligible, especially when you have redirectors giving you an advantage in the movement phase - giving you some degree of control over what can and cannot charge you.
LordUnderlord said:
Disagree entirely, it's a 500pt model (potentially up to 25% of your army) with 3 wounds that hurts your army when it dies. I don't care what saves you give him, to assume he's unlikely to die to a focused attack (and your enemies WILL try to kill him) is folly.
My post originally went on about this further but I realised this is a thread about the Cursed Book and this debate is off topic. Maybe it should be re-started/ continued elsewhere? There are good points both ways.
Back on topic, the book is dependant on your army I believe. My list consists of a Ghoulking and a few hero level casters (either vampires or Necros) and I use magic in a supporting role backed up by a Mortis engine for higher casting levels. Due to my lack of high-cost spells and the RELIABILITY of the book in the right situation (casting it on a unit I am in combat with, especially to support the Ghoulking) I find it useful. I also only tend to activate it whilst I'm in combat, so it doesn't cost me anything unless I want to use it.
The utility it grants for my armylist is well worth the points to me.
LordUnderlord said:
Ranks of elite Great Weapon wielders (Bestigors, Grave Guard in the mirror match, Hammerers, Blorcs) are inclined to disagree, especially because most of them can either get re-rolls to hit to make them extra reliable, or even debuff your stats with magic. You'll likely win the combat, but there's a chance you'll lose the Lord, and that would be an absolute disaster. If you're comfortable with that risk, more power to you - but given how heavily we lean on magic, I sure am not.
LordUnderlord
Skeleton
rothgar13 said:
He'd lose less than 1 wound per round on average. Every round he'd have a 1/6 chance of regaining a wound from the hunger rule, while every 2 rounds he'd have multiple chances of being healed by the curse of undeath rule. Also the enemy unit would likely break or die in under 3~ rounds. So the odds are in his favour, even against some of the most deadly and unlikely units he could face. Considering all of this, it just doesn't support the idea that fielding a combat lord is a heedless risk.
I'm not saying it's a heedless risk. I'm saying it's an additional risk as compared to coughing up a few more points and having him sit safely in the back as a Master Necromancer who will only get engaged if said Vampire dies.
Also, I'm pretty sure Bestigors in particular can rip more than wound off him a turn. 6 attacks hitting at a 75% (4's with re-rolls) clip, wounding on 3's, and allowing the mandatory 4+ Ward save averages out to 1.5 Wounds a round, so the pressure's on the Vamp to get some 6's on The Hunger or get some spells cast to stay alive.
Also, I'm pretty sure Bestigors in particular can rip more than wound off him a turn. 6 attacks hitting at a 75% (4's with re-rolls) clip, wounding on 3's, and allowing the mandatory 4+ Ward save averages out to 1.5 Wounds a round, so the pressure's on the Vamp to get some 6's on The Hunger or get some spells cast to stay alive.
I think we were getting a bit off topic, and i meant no disrespect. I do agree that having a Lord that's 500 points gets me a little bit weary putting him in combat. there are so many pros and cons to splitting up the lords but that is better saved for another thread. Same for the Black Perlapt (but youre right about that not being completely optimized there. I do have my reasons but i'm not completely convinced it makes up for its points).
The point made about using the book with certain army builds will make it optimal I think is correct. I have been playing pick up games with my list in preparation for a a tourney happening soon. I thought the skellies were worthless as well until i used them in conjunctions with this book (and some other stuff). Skellies make for a better anvil than zombies in short. The amount of attacks they bring horded with spears is nice when they are supported on the flank by either Black Knights, Ghouls, or the Varg to answer your question N.I.B. And since we can't really have a Lvl 4 Shadow Lord (without jumping through tons of hoops) its hard to come by debuffs we can spread around. The book allows all 3 casters to have IoN while benefiting the skellies (or other units that may need attention) with buffs, and debuffs. When you have 40 attacks with rerolls (Hit or wound) vs for example a unit with decreased Strength. They do well on their own let alone holding the line to my main casters and allow a vamp lord to be able to go with the ghouls and wreck stuff. The buffs in the Lore of the Vamps spells are also kind of short range. Its nice to have some debuffs to spread to those units a bit further back.
The point made about using the book with certain army builds will make it optimal I think is correct. I have been playing pick up games with my list in preparation for a a tourney happening soon. I thought the skellies were worthless as well until i used them in conjunctions with this book (and some other stuff). Skellies make for a better anvil than zombies in short. The amount of attacks they bring horded with spears is nice when they are supported on the flank by either Black Knights, Ghouls, or the Varg to answer your question N.I.B. And since we can't really have a Lvl 4 Shadow Lord (without jumping through tons of hoops) its hard to come by debuffs we can spread around. The book allows all 3 casters to have IoN while benefiting the skellies (or other units that may need attention) with buffs, and debuffs. When you have 40 attacks with rerolls (Hit or wound) vs for example a unit with decreased Strength. They do well on their own let alone holding the line to my main casters and allow a vamp lord to be able to go with the ghouls and wreck stuff. The buffs in the Lore of the Vamps spells are also kind of short range. Its nice to have some debuffs to spread to those units a bit further back.
LordUnderlord
Skeleton
rothgar13 said:
You save 100 points by consolidating both your wizard and fighter into a single vampire lord. A consolidated lord costs 100 points more than a specialized combat lord. Both are equally vulnerable. To see whether the points saved are worth the risk is simple: determine how many games your consolidated lord survives on average before dying. Take that number of games and multiply it by the number of points he saved you. Now determine the average number of games it takes him for him to die. Divide that number by the difference between his point cost and the specialized combat lord's point cost. If the first number is higher, the risk is worthwhile; if the second number is higher, the risk is not worthwhile.
Easy as pie. And unless your vampire lord has a death rate of 100% or more you're going to find that the bargain is indeed worth the risk
Also this formula is biased in your favour - since it assumes that the necromancer lord never dies.
Beastigors have a larger base than the vampire, so at most only 4 would be able to direct attacks at him. Unless you're saying they're deployed as a horde - but in that case they should be losing their third rank fairly quickly anyways. Also they do have to pass a leadership test in order to get hatred - and yeah I know it's common to shrug that off by assuming both the general and bsb are in range, but it's not a given.
As a Beastmen player first and foremost, I can tell you that Bestigors and Horde go together like peanut butter and jelly - there's usually no reason to not do it, barring having dipped below three full ranks. Either way, you make some fairly solid points regarding the consolidated Vampire Lord, though I am forced to mention that any miscasts will have you on pins and needles (this can be mitigated to some extent by using 2-3 dice on everything, but there's stuff you just can't cast reliably this way, and then there are items like the Hellheart and the Ring of Hotek that will MAKE you miscast).
LordUnderlord
Skeleton
rothgar13 said:
But again, they'll be losing their 3rd rank fairly quickly. The vampire will be doing 7~ wounds per round alone, meaning that by the time they get to attack on the second round, they'll have lost 14 models. So a 35 man unit for example will only reliably get in one round of their full 6 attacks on the vamp - in the subsequent phase they'd only get 4. When you take the vampire's unit into account things only look more grim for the beastigors. Considering how costly this hypothetical horde of beastigors is (420 points minimum), I'd say it'd be a worthwhile risk for a vampire lord to take them on, since the odds are in his favour. And if for whatever reason you felt the risk wasn't worth it, you could always choose to avoid the fight, which is entirely possible given how unwieldy hordes are and how much chaff we have access to.
I'll pay XX points on the Cursed Book for my Level 1 Invocation casting necromancer to have the ability to cast a nice variety of Shadow, Death and Heavens spells with a 100% casting success rate (I repeat, 100% casting success rate with 0% chance of a miscast).
I'll admit, for the 1st turn, the Cursed Book may not be wise as most of the ranges are 24" and out of range. That's fine with me! My opponent owuldn't know I have until it's too late.
HOWEVER, if you are within 24" of the enemy's front lines (turn 2), and you can't find ANY utility from EACH of the spells, then frankly you're not looking hard enough. I have enough variety in my army lists to take advantage of the Cursed Book, and no, I didn't build my army around it either.
I've 20 nilled my opponents the past 2 games (against DE and Ogres) and used the Book in both games. Now, the Book didn't give me the win, but it helped me break units in more than 1 way, either by using the spells that get let go, or having the upper hand in magic phases by DD being used on the Book, leaving less PD for 12" bubbled Van Hels and Hellish Vigors.
I'll admit, for the 1st turn, the Cursed Book may not be wise as most of the ranges are 24" and out of range. That's fine with me! My opponent owuldn't know I have until it's too late.
HOWEVER, if you are within 24" of the enemy's front lines (turn 2), and you can't find ANY utility from EACH of the spells, then frankly you're not looking hard enough. I have enough variety in my army lists to take advantage of the Cursed Book, and no, I didn't build my army around it either.
I've 20 nilled my opponents the past 2 games (against DE and Ogres) and used the Book in both games. Now, the Book didn't give me the win, but it helped me break units in more than 1 way, either by using the spells that get let go, or having the upper hand in magic phases by DD being used on the Book, leaving less PD for 12" bubbled Van Hels and Hellish Vigors.
Topic? We take your topic and we bleed it dry. 
That's what I'm saying, though. There are things you don't want to jam your Vamp into, and if you think you're going to win the chaff war against Beastmen, I have news for you, buddy - you're not. They have Harpies, Razorgors, and Raiders, and they can also bring Chariots and Warhounds if so inclined. Chaff, hordes, and spell-spam are the things we can do best.
And Bestis usually run in blocks of 40, with a block of 40 Gors with a BSB that gives them +1 Str on the other side (a more tempting target for sure, but you can be sure that the bulk of Beastmen magic is headed that way, and Beastmen have formidable magic). And we haven't even gotten to the armies like Tomb Kings, who can both give any unit Killing Blow with a spell AND field huge blocks of KB infantry (who get 5+ KB if you cast that spell on them!). I don't mean to be a downer - I just want to illustrate that the combined Vamp Lord isn't always the slam dunk that it looks like on paper.
And to bring this back on topic, since I'm arguing for having a Master Necro around anyway, you have space to carry extra Arcane Items. You could do worse than the Cursed Book.
That's what I'm saying, though. There are things you don't want to jam your Vamp into, and if you think you're going to win the chaff war against Beastmen, I have news for you, buddy - you're not. They have Harpies, Razorgors, and Raiders, and they can also bring Chariots and Warhounds if so inclined. Chaff, hordes, and spell-spam are the things we can do best.
And Bestis usually run in blocks of 40, with a block of 40 Gors with a BSB that gives them +1 Str on the other side (a more tempting target for sure, but you can be sure that the bulk of Beastmen magic is headed that way, and Beastmen have formidable magic). And we haven't even gotten to the armies like Tomb Kings, who can both give any unit Killing Blow with a spell AND field huge blocks of KB infantry (who get 5+ KB if you cast that spell on them!). I don't mean to be a downer - I just want to illustrate that the combined Vamp Lord isn't always the slam dunk that it looks like on paper.
And to bring this back on topic, since I'm arguing for having a Master Necro around anyway, you have space to carry extra Arcane Items. You could do worse than the Cursed Book.
A mounted Vampire Lord shouldn't have much trouble avoiding the few things in a TK or Beastmen army that can threaten him. He's M7 with Vanhels backup and if it comes to CC he's WS7-9 with a 2+/4+ save and most models in btb with him don't get any bonus to strenght from weapons thanks to Nightshroud on him or his bodyguard. Also, the vampire lord and his deathstar should take a heavy toll from any TK/Beastmen unit, before they can strike back. Plus if we're talking Beastmen they have low Ld issue, so Fear, Aura and Beguile really comes into play.
Beguile can come into play, but Fear gets stuffed pretty easily by Bestigors, because they can take the Wailing Banner and cause Terror themselves. I actually played this exact game yesterday (Beastmen v. VC), and it was a hard-fought draw, with not much of either army left.
LordUnderlord said:rothgar13 said:
You save 100 points by consolidating both your wizard and fighter into a single vampire lord. A consolidated lord costs 100 points more than a specialized combat lord. Both are equally vulnerable. To see whether the points saved are worth the risk is simple: determine how many games your consolidated lord survives on average before dying. Take that number of games and multiply it by the number of points he saved you. Now determine the average number of games it takes him for him to die. Divide that number by the difference between his point cost and the specialized combat lord's point cost. If the first number is higher, the risk is worthwhile; if the second number is higher, the risk is not worthwhile.
Easy as pie. And unless your vampire lord has a death rate of 100% or more you're going to find that the bargain is indeed worth the risk
Also this formula is biased in your favour - since it assumes that the necromancer lord never dies.
Sure, in a vacuum. But otherwise that's flawed reasoning. The whole argument for dividing the lvl4 caster and awesome fighter in two containers is that these abilities is too important for us to risk at once. How many point's more on average will you loose without a level 3/4 caster in a 2400p game. Even if this favors the hybrid lord, it's not easy as pie to calculate.
Munkey
Grave Guard
Played with the Cursed Book tonight...bloody marvelous! My opponant was mortified. First go resulted in a 3 PD Withering - which allowed my zombies to drag a Slaaneshi fiend to it's death. Then a 2 PD Enfeebling, on some Bloodletters, resulted in them doing virtually zero damage.
I can see this becoming a near 'must have' in my future lists. Will be taking it to a fun little 1 day tournament on Sunday March 4th - again run by Battlecult.
I can see this becoming a near 'must have' in my future lists. Will be taking it to a fun little 1 day tournament on Sunday March 4th - again run by Battlecult.
I agree. In the tourney i just played in it worked wonders very a Chaos army. Block of Chosen who got their 3+ ward save first turn. turn one, redirected (1" movement forward), turn two redirected (1" Movement forward), turn 3 i got off an enfeebling losing 2 dice, -3 str!!! This caused him to not charge that turn so i could back up my main line again (2" back) on turn 4 where he failed a charge (BY 2")! turn 5 zombies flanked which gave me enough time to get my wizards (expensive characters) a hasty escape from the OP unit.
Also, I did opt to take the Black Perlapt with the book, and it really screwed with some of my opponents magic phases. An Empire Player with a net of 4 DD + a turn i went head to head with getting a crucial spell off just about every phase. Without the 2 i wouldnt of gotten 1 the entire game. Other games I pretty much dominated the Magic or Dispel phase (whichever was more potent vs the army i was playing). They are a great combo. My next test is going to see how this works with MotBA and the book.
Also, I did opt to take the Black Perlapt with the book, and it really screwed with some of my opponents magic phases. An Empire Player with a net of 4 DD + a turn i went head to head with getting a crucial spell off just about every phase. Without the 2 i wouldnt of gotten 1 the entire game. Other games I pretty much dominated the Magic or Dispel phase (whichever was more potent vs the army i was playing). They are a great combo. My next test is going to see how this works with MotBA and the book.