The future of mounted characters?

[N_Man79]

Hi all,

Been away from warhammer for about 18 months - distracted by warmachine, FSA, Dreadball, oh and our firstborn!

Anyway Nagash's return has resurrected my own love for VC and I got a copy of the new book and one of the things that's impressed me most is the single stat line for the special characters mounted on large beats.

As I say it's been ages since I've actually played so thought I'd come and ask you all if you think this is as big deal as it seems, is it the future of things to come?

I hope in the future they do this for all large mounts - coven throne was the model that got me into VC so the possibility of always fielding my general on that without having to worry about a cannonball to the face would be huge for me!

 

[najo]

Yes, it's very likely. It would bring mounted characters in line with cavalry models. It is easy to implement too. Just provide stat modifiers for the beast instead of its own statline. Or, you could provide it's stats and then say increase T by 1 if higher, add wound and attacks to rider's own etc.

 

[Seneschal]

If only they had a good armor save, too...

 

[Skittelz1981]

or a wardsave..... wtf Arkhan, wtf manny, wtf neffie.... none has a wardsave, sure they have grandiose amounts of wounds and reasoble T, still feels prone to shootinggalore though

 

[najo]

They have easy access to wound recovery through vampire lore.

 

[HERO]

It's going to be interesting for sure to see what they do with mounted characters. I'm not really convinced that combining stats is the right way forward, since characters and their mounts tend to be completely different in terms of equipment, special rules and stats.

 

[najo]

Depends on who the player is. Combining stats is easier and more streamlined. Better for fast play and new players. I'm with you on possibly keeping them separate, though there are a lot of meta level problems in the game when profiles are separate, ie cannons, monstrous mounts being killed, spell effects etc

 

[HERO]

Depends on who the player is. Combining stats is easier and more streamlined. Better for fast play and new players. I'm with you on possibly keeping them separate, though there are a lot of meta level problems in the game when profiles are separate, ie cannons, monstrous mounts being killed, spell effects etc

Take a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon for instance, build your favorite one and then tell me how it would look with a combined profile, while maintaining the same functionality, special rules and vampiric powers from the Lord.

This is just a fun practice, but treat it like a design test for shits and giggles.

 

[Bullhax]

Well the lord/model would gain -1 to hit it, the breath weap. Gain 1T, 2W. Then I think thunderstomps need to be changed as giving x number of extra attacks might be imbalanced, especially on a QB/RF vamp.

It's hard but not undoable to make mounts a buff. Especially if you tweak the point cost too.. I do think the fly rule should confer a minus to hit it, not much but some, for both cannons/bolt throwers and regular shooting.

 

[najo]

Take a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon for instance, build your favorite one and then tell me how it would look with a combined profile, while maintaining the same functionality, special rules and vampiric powers from the Lord.

This is just a fun practice, but treat it like a design test for shits and giggles.

Well, what happens if you do this:

• Model counts as the unit type of the mount
• Model gains some special rules of the mount
• Use the mount's Movement score.
• Model gains the higher wounds and toughness of the mount if they are greater.
• The model gains extra attacks at a Strength listed with certain special attacks.

So in the case of the zombie dragon, you could do the following:

• Character becomes a monster (special character)
• Gains fly, large target, scaly skin (5+ or +1 to Armor save), Terror.
• Model gains Pestilential Breath and Swarm of Flies.
• Model gains +2 Wounds and +1 Toughness.
• Model gains 5 Attacks and a Thunderstomp at Strength 6

 

[Blutsauger]

lol 10 attacks with QB and RF!

 

[Skittelz1981]

Can i still equip him with ToP....?
T6, W8, as1+, ws4++, -1to hit, and full blenderloadout.... priced at 700 points! Yes please

 

[Blutsauger]

That thing would be a lolrocket. Just power him into the guts of the enemy army and laugh your ass off!

 

[najo]

lol 10 attacks with QB and RF!

You would have the monster attacks separate still, so they wouldn't benefit from his powers. Like a chariot.

 

[HERO]

Well, what happens if you do this:

• Model counts as the unit type of the mount
• Model gains some special rules of the mount
• Use the mount's Movement score.
• Model gains the higher wounds and toughness of the mount if they are greater.
• The model gains extra attacks at a Strength listed with certain special attacks.

So in the case of the zombie dragon, you could do the following:

• Character becomes a monster (special character)
• Gains fly, large target, scaly skin (5+ or +1 to Armor save), Terror.
• Model gains Pestilential Breath and Swarm of Flies.
• Model gains +2 Wounds and +1 Toughness.
• Model gains 5 Attacks and a Thunderstomp at Strength 6

Do the new Undead Legions characters attack seperately from their mounts? If so, what stats do they use and vice versa?

So if we merge the two profiles and take the highest from all into one.. A Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon will be..

WS7 S6 T6 W6 I7 A5

Then you start adding on gear for the Vampire Lord right, so let's take what I usually take and he'll have 1+ AS, 4++ Ward, S8 from Ogre Blade, 2++ vs. fire with -1 to hit me in close combat because of the cloud of flies.

So when shooting at this, do you just use the lord's characteristics? Does the Dragon have 1+/4++/2++? If not, you have to randomize just like the Chariot right? But cannonballs hit both rider and mount now.

When you fight this, does the Dragon have its own attacks with its own characteristics? Because the Undead Legions guys just have one profile, and we're combining the profiles int his exercise. Does that mean the entire model will just fight with with the lord's characteristics? So 5 attacks at WS7 I7 ASF Red Fury at S8, then a stomp at the default strength at base profile at S6.

I'm trying to wrap my head around the logistics of this, because UL characters is one thing, but then adding your custom gear that can affect your dragon is another..

 

[najo]

Yeah, the more I think about it, the more I agree with you that it's difficult to implement and not lose something. But the way it is now has some problems too. Look at recent war machines and monsters, and crew/handlers are definitely being worked into having shared profiles. The crew/ handlers are more wound counters more than anything. I guess it works better model wise to have the crew just part of the main model and on its base. Then when the main model is killed, remove the whole thing. With chariots and steeds you have the upgrade to the main model (ie character) and the attacks are separately handled with the mount's S and A characteristics. The vampire powers don't affect their nightmares. So they wouldn't affect their monstrous mounts either.

It seems the main issue is your combining two powerful and independent models together. That is the hard part. Is it worth doing? For simplicity, yes. For game balance maybe. For story/fluff, no. With all this speculation, I throw the design back at you. If you had to, how would you implement combined profiles and how would you fix the current not combined profiles?

 

[Seneschal]

They have easy access to wound recovery through vampire lore.

They need to survive long enough to get a chance to use it though. Any player who knows how vulnerable the mortrarchs are will target them immediately with whatever shooting/sniping they have.

 

[HERO]

It seems the main issue is your combining two powerful and independent models together. That is the hard part. Is it worth doing? For simplicity, yes. For game balance maybe. For story/fluff, no. With all this speculation, I throw the design back at you. If you had to, how would you implement combined profiles and how would you fix the current not combined profiles?

I don't think there is a way to make it so without breaking the immersion from it.

In terms of shooting, I think you should always hit the mount. No more of this randomization crap, just hit the mount because it's obviously the biggest target. With that said, it will always be done vs. the Zombie Dragon's stats of T6 6W. That's honestly the easiest way to do it.

In terms of combat, I think you should have the option to swing at either, the Lord or the mount that he's on.

When you combine profiles, you risk not only making the shooting and close combat phase much more complicated than it is (because of items and stuff), but you're adding unneeded complexity where you don't need it.

With that said:
1. No more randomized shooting vs. characters and their mounts. It always hit the mounts.
2. In close combat, you can either swing at the character or the mount. This means the equipment on the character will only benefit the character.

Hopefully, this will increase the longevity of the guy on top. Frankly, I don't think randomization should even exist. It's completely unneeded and an outdated rule from like 4 editions ago. It does nothing but add time to the game and achieve very little in the process.

If GW really wants to make combat characters worthwhile while riding giant monster mounts, they'll make the rider untargetable until the mount's dead in close combat. Boom, problem solved. That way, you can get rid of that ridiculous monster reaction rule all together. But that's more of a design conversation that GW designers will have more intently, because that ruins the fantasy of riders being slain on top of their mount all together (and the fact that army books samples like Karl Franz exist).

How do I justify this radical proposal? Look at every epic dragon rider/Nazgul dude ever to ride an epic beast into battle. Are you telling me people are trying to kill the dude when there's giant snapping jaws from a horrific beast in front of you? The mount ALWAYS dies before the rider gets engaged. This will also mean the people need to swing at the T6 6W mount while beyond pounded on by the lord and the dragon. This is the closet way you can get to "combined" without making shit way too complicated.

 

[theknightofjello]

Honestly what mounts need to be are just upgrades to the stat line of a character. Like they give you +X Wounds/Toughness, some special rules (fly large target cloud of flies etc), and then like +2 attacks for the larger ones.
Combined stat lines are amazing and need to happen! Any player worth their salt is always going to target the stupid dragon for free combat Rez. I've seen more than my fair share of vamp lords get Vap'ed because the dragon went down like a chump. On top of that giving that dragon a 4+ ward save makes them worth taking and not getting cannon balled/telephone poled off the table in turn one! For too long monstrous mounts have been off the table and they need to return!

 

[HERO]

Honestly what mounts need to be are just upgrades to the stat line of a character. Like they give you +X Wounds/Toughness, some special rules (fly large target cloud of flies etc), and then like +2 attacks for the larger ones.
Combined stat lines are amazing and need to happen! Any player worth their salt is always going to target the stupid dragon for free combat Rez. I've seen more than my fair share of vamp lords get Vap'ed because the dragon went down like a chump. On top of that giving that dragon a 4+ ward save makes them worth taking and not getting cannon balled/telephone poled off the table in turn one! For too long monstrous mounts have been off the table and they need to return!

Dude, a 1+/4++/2++ Dragon Lord with tons of wounds is not healthy for the game.

 

[theknightofjello]

The current state of Cannon Balls and Bolt throwers makes monster mounts obsolete. You can argue with me about how they are "good" but in tournament play they are giant targets! Which is super bad especially for Vampire counts. Even if you give the vampire count +3 wounds that is still able to be one shot by a cannon ball that is going to ignore armor and wound on anything but a one. That is just 1 cannon ball... and we all know Empire ONLY brings one cannon to the table.
If you are spending 50% of your army for your general there is no reason for him to not be Amazing! That means not getting burnt turn one by 200pts of bolt throwers/Cannonballs. I do not think giving your dragon a 50% chance to shrug off a cannon Ball is outrageous to ask. That is just in the shooting phase though. What about the Magic phase! And In combat the dragon is just toughness 6... which against any unit worth it's salt is going to bring it down. Your lord is going to bleed combat rez and then he pops.
GW sees no one is using monstrous mounts in general and combined stat lines is going to fix that.

 

[HERO]

The current state of Cannon Balls and Bolt throwers makes monster mounts obsolete. You can argue with me about how they are "good" but in tournament play they are giant targets! Which is super bad especially for Vampire counts. Even if you give the vampire count +3 wounds that is still able to be one shot by a cannon ball that is going to ignore armor and wound on anything but a one. That is just 1 cannon ball... and we all know Empire ONLY brings one cannon to the table.
If you are spending 50% of your army for your general there is no reason for him to not be Amazing! That means not getting burnt turn one by 200pts of bolt throwers/Cannonballs. I do not think giving your dragon a 50% chance to shrug off a cannon Ball is outrageous to ask. That is just in the shooting phase though. What about the Magic phase! And In combat the dragon is just toughness 6... which against any unit worth it's salt is going to bring it down. Your lord is going to bleed combat rez and then he pops.
GW sees no one is using monstrous mounts in general and combined stat lines is going to fix that.

I think the answer lies in fixing laser cannons and not in making monsters all powerful.

 

[theknightofjello]

Toughness 6 with an armor save and 4++ is not all powerful. Getting shot at is just a small part of the monster problem. You will have to accept any challenge and you'll still get messed up by static combat rez. I'll concede that cannon balls are op. Fixing the laser guided aspect isn't going to fix the rest of what makes the powerful though. Strength 10 and D6 wounds is the problem. Nagash has a 4++ and no one is crying that he is omg powerful. No one will do that with the dragon either.

 

[Blutsauger]

I think there's two problems with cannons. Well, several problems but let's start with the most obvious:

Cannonballs hit both rider and mount. What? Why! You're already doing D6 S10 wounds to my Dragon, why do you get a free shot at my General as well?

Cannonballs never miss. Unless you get very unlucky, or you roll a misfire, that cannon ball is going to hit. Why such accuracy? Why not just use the ballistic skill of the crew, and hit like a bolt thrower?

Third, and this is a problem with a lot of weapons that inflict multiple wounds, the D6 wounds devalues your armour/ward saves. Because if you're toting a 4++ save, you've still only got a 50/50 of taking the wounds or not, instead of a 50/50 of taking EACH wound. It means one bad dice roll can ruin your game, as opposed to requiring a handful of bad dice.

Placing too much weight on a single dice roll, or on a small number of dice, is bad for the game because it completely takes away the element of player skill. It's just dumb luck that decides the game, and players realise it so they avoid that situation by avoiding monster mounts. I think monsters are really cool, and a really important part of the flavour of Warhammer so I'd really like to see them taken more often, and I think addressing the issues with cannons would go a long way to doing that.

 

[HERO]

Toughness 6 with an armor save and 4++ is not all powerful. Getting shot at is just a small part of the monster problem. You will have to accept any challenge and you'll still get messed up by static combat rez. I'll concede that cannon balls are op. Fixing the laser guided aspect isn't going to fix the rest of what makes the powerful though. Strength 10 and D6 wounds is the problem. Nagash has a 4++ and no one is crying that he is omg powerful. No one will do that with the dragon either.

I haven't seen any competitive events allowing Undead Legions either, so let's not get carried away.

You seem like the type that likes to charge headlong into units with your dragonlord solo and wonder why things go poorly. I think that's more of the problem than monsters itself unfortunately.

I mean, come on, listen to yourself. You're suggesting a 1+ AS, 4+ ward ,2++ vs. fire, 9 wound model with WS7 S8 Ogre Blade 9 attacks Red Fury I7 ASF and T6 is fine. If GW came out with this model tomorrow, everyone would lose their shit and for good reason. There's very in the game that can take on this model either in combat, or via shooting by the time it reaches combat. It will destroy this game's already fragile balance utterly, and if you're incapable of bringing something similar, you're screwed.

The reason why not one has complained that Nagash or the Mortarchs are crazy is because they ONLY have 4+ ward, no saves at all, or have subpar rules. A Lv.4 blenderlord on a Zombie Dragon with his armor save is simply godlike. And how would it even make sense for a mount to have the armor bonuses or protection of the rider? Seriously.