The Necromancer thread

[Danceman]

It would depend on what you can field but looking the thread there doesnt seem to be a way to know this but seems the only downside is no blood knights and characters. Marching wont be that hard to keep in check if you a varghulf nearby.

But even so, I think it is overdone. I can just see shooting and combat felling some models only to have all their kills and more get back up, being dragged into an endless stalement untill the undead forces are twice as large as they were before... and all the opponent could possibly hope for is a draw. Unless you decide to cast something on two dice or more and perhaps hope for a miscast.
I am sure the image of the horde growing to countless numbers appeals to you(it does to me) but I wouldnt expect your opponents would humour you with more than a single game as the game would basically be you rolling dice and putting back models. Put simply, it will be a drag for your opponent and there are other ways of showing the characteristics of master necro without putting him in the same league as Slann and HE/DE mages.

Alot would actually be solved by dropping the innate +1 to cast necromancy spells. Just make necromatic study the ability to know all necro spells. Still would need some point tweeking in the abilities but not as dramatic, my main concern is making the magic part to powerful.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I can see your point danceman, but i still think Necromancers need something to make there list viable compared to the vampire lists.

How about instead of +1 to cast for Necromantic study, the casting values of necromantic spells are reduced by 1 for the master necromancer.

Edit: I had an idea for another familiar
Name? Points?
Fluff?
This familiar alows you to use a bound spell. It does D6 str 4 hits for every one of your movement phases since it was last used, it counts as having not been used for 1 movement phase at the very begining of the game (so would do 2D6 in your first magic phase). The power level of the bound spell is equal to the number of hits.

It is badly worded but I think you get the idea. Ill re-word when i don't feel a bit less tired.

 

[Danceman]

I suggest making that balance in the list in forms of a new unit and/or upgrades. You suggestion doesnt deal with the problem directly, just making it easier to cast all his necromancy spells, well exactly as easy to cast but a tiny tiny bit easier to dispell. Not enough of a change IMO. Still inviting opponents into a game of looking at the VC player roll dice.

Right now the master is much more than viable.

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

Ok then Danceman, how about another special rule:

Apprentice
Despite their great skill and Experience, Master Necromancers are still human, and Necromancy still ravages their bodies. This strain prevents them from gaining the true control over Necromancy that Vampires can, as they cannot use their magic as frequently, or they risk becoming a wraith.
Every time The Master Necromancer has cast a Necromancy spell roll a D6+1, and compare the result to the number of Necromancy spells he has cast so far in the turn. If the number rolled is higher than the number of Necromancy spells he has cast so far, there is no effect, however if the number is lower than the number of Necromancy spell he has cast so far, he cannot cast any more necromancy spells that turn.

This way he can still cast plenty of magic, but the more he casts, the less chance he has of casting more.

And Capt, I think we will have to leave that idea for now, as it seems rather complex, and I think we need to focus on the Master Necro issue here.

 

[Danceman]

I love it. A good offset of the power. Fits the mentality of the necromancer very nicely. A powerful necromancer still must strain under the effects of dark magic. Will also make the other power which makes him cast other spells more interesting.

I'm sold!

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, I propose the following changes:

Drop the innate +1 to cast necromancy spells. That in itself will go a great deal to stop them being able to get get so many successfully through.

Knowledge Familiar: The 4 spells from any lore must be rolled for, and must be from the same lore.

Master Familiar - Up to 50pts. I say this because I am taking into account that necros are reduced combat wise. I think having the flexibility to heal all the core is ok.

Warrior Familiar - Looking at Danceys reasoning I agree a raise to 55pts.

Spirit Familiar - I say leave as is.

In regards to Marcus's rule, it sounds interesting but the main fault I would find is that a bad roll can really mess up your magic phase. This army relies even more on magic than a VC army, making it too variable will put people off.

If you really must introduce such a rule I would suggest the following:

A necro may recast a necromancy spells the amount of times equal to his magic level without penalty. Each additional attempt suffers a cumulative -1 modifier to the casting roll.

Example. A level 3 necro may cast IoN 3 times with not penatly. Fourth time is at -1, fifth time is at -2 etc.

At least this way you can play around it.

 

[Danceman]

50pts works for the mastery power. 60 might have been abit too high.

I agree with the rest.

Removing the +1 to cast is fine but the idea marcus put forth is pretty damn cool and has alot of character.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

It does have character and the fluff behind it is good, it is just possibly too limiting. I would prefer something set like I suggest, so I will vote nay to the variable suggestion.

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

OK then, I agree with the changes to the Familiars.
For the rule, I suppose your way is a bit more reliable, so I could go with that, but in that case if we also dropped the +1 it would get an avarage of 4 IoN spells for lvl 3 wizards which is a bit small for a necro army listm never mind the other necro spells. Perhaps keep the +1 for Necro spells and change the rules to this?

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I think Marcus's idea would work as the master would stop casting but the lesser necromancers could still cast so won't stop all your magic with a bad roll, and the master's going to get 2 spells off at least you just have to be carefull which order you cast your spells (If not 3 deppending on question below).

What happens if the dice roll the same as the number of spells cast?

I think the master familiar should be 45 or the warrior familiar 50 so you could take both on the same master necromancer.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

If we was to go with a rule like this I would say we can keep the +1 to necromancy spells.

CPD - I think it would be ok to put the warrior at 50pts.

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

Ahhhh!! Which rule do people want?
Seriously, either is fine by me. Just make sure you use my fluff :tongue:

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I have already made my feelings clear so it is upto what other people suggest.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I think we could keep the +1 with this rule. I think the hero necros should have a similar rule as well otherwise it wouldn't make sense (maby a D3+1 for them?)

 

[Danceman]

Removing the +1 to cast is probably the easiest route. I also believe you should pay 35pts for the extra magic level. Even though you dont get another spell you can comfortably rely on always having the spells needed on a character which can be boosted quite significantly by extra powers/items.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok we are going round in circles.


We have three options:

Remove the +1 to cast necro spells

Remove the +1 to cast necro spells and have a limiting rule (either mine or marcus')

Have a limiting rule (either mine or marcus')


I vote for the second option personally.

In regards to the magic level I disagree. 35pts is far too much when you do not get an additional spell. I can see your point so I would perhaps compromise on 25pst, but 35pts is too much.

 

[Marcus Von Drac]

Out of those, I would also vote for the second one. And Despite coming up with my idea and being very proud of it I can understand that DoN's is perhaps more reliable. I would like to see the 2 Ideas posted next to each other for easy comparison, then I would easily make my mind up. Sorry I cant do that but i have to dash.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I would also go with the second option

For Marcus:
(DON's rule) A necro may recast a necromancy spells the amount of times equal to his magic level without penalty. Each additional attempt suffers a cumulative -1 modifier to the casting roll.

(Marcus' rule) Every time The Master Necromancer has cast a Necromancy spell roll a D6+1, and compare the result to the number of Necromancy spells he has cast so far in the turn. If the number rolled is higher than the number of Necromancy spells he has cast so far, there is no effect, however if the number is lower than the number of Necromancy spell he has cast so far, he cannot cast any more necromancy spells that turn.

What happens if the dice role is the same as the number of spells cast?

I think DON's rule would be simpilar but I think it could weaken the necromancers magic quite a lot as it is easyier to despell, maby for each necromancy spell cast increase the casting value of the spells, this makes it harder for the necromancer to keep casting but not easyier for opponent to despell which i think would make sense.

Marcus' rule would add a tactical edge to using the necromancer as you could be certain off being able to cast important spells but leaving your opponent more DD to despell with or you could drain there DD but rist not being able to cast a spell.

At the moment I'm not sure which is better but I wouldn't mind either one.

 

[Danceman]

I'd say just remove the +1 to cast. The master necro still is powerful(for its cost) and can be boosted quite significantly with powers/items.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

I'd be OK with just removing the +1, it would keep things simple.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

So after all that you just want to stick with removing the +1 to casting...........couldn't you have just said that in the first place?

Ok, so are we going with:


Drop the innate +1 to cast necromancy spells. That in itself will go a great deal to stop them being able to get get so many successfully through.

Knowledge Familiar: The 4 spells from any lore must be rolled for, and must be from the same lore.

Master Familiar - Up to 50pts. I say this because I am taking into account that necros are reduced combat wise. I think having the flexibility to heal all the core is ok.

Warrior Familiar - Looking at Danceys reasoning I agree a raise to 50pts.

Spirit Familiar - I say leave as is.

 

[Danceman]

Sounds good to me!

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

Lol, so after 2 pages of disscusion (argueing) we chanced one rule and ammended some points values , the rules changes look good to me.

Back on to thew hero necro's rules and some more familiars:

For the new familiars we had so far:

Power Familiar - 30pts
Souls of Dead necromancers crowd around their living brethren, attracting the winds of magic to them. This can be both a Boon and a curse though, as the spirits seek revenge for their demise.
The Necromancer may take a leadership test with +1 at the start of the magic phase, if he passes he benifits from Irresistable force on any roll of a double apart from double 1. But if he fails he suffers a miscast on any roll of a double.

Entrancing familiar - 60pts - Needs new name Ideas?
This familiar weaves a thread of flickering lights around the necromancer, which entrances his enemies in a web of confusion.
This may be used in 1 of 3 differant ways. Either all enemy units within 6" are subject to the rules for stupidity, one enemy unit within 12" is subject to stupidity (chosen by the player in control of the necromancer with this familiar), or any unit wishing to charge the necromancers unit must pass a stupidity test before they do so. Any unit affected by this and already has stupidity must re-roll their test if they pass it. Choose which affect you wish to use at the start of your opponents turn and it lasts until the beginning of his/her next turn.

Control Familiar - 25pts
Needs Fluff
The Necromancer may re-roll any failed Ld tests when rolling from the Strength of Will special rule. He cannot re-roll a re-roll.

And the hero necros rules:

Necromancer - 90pts
M 4 / WS 3 / BS 3 / S 3 / T3 / W 2 / I 3 / A 1 / Ld 7

Weapons & Armour: Hand Weapon.
Magic: The Necromancer is a Level 1 Wizard. However he does not function like a normal Wizard. He generates Power Dice and Dispel dice normally, but the spells he knows are not linked to his Magic level. Instead he automatically knows 2 of the 3 Necromancy spells from the Lore of Vampires.
Options:
May be upgraded to a level 2 Wizard for +25 pts. Upgrading his magic Level gives him the last Necromancy spell, as well as increasing the number of Power dice he generates.
May Ride either a Skeletal Steed or a Corpse Cart.
May choose up to 50pts of Magic Items from the Common or Vampire Counts Magic Items lists and/or may take up to 50pts if Familiars, however the combined total of Magic Items and Familiars may not exceed 75pts

Special rules
Undead, Corpse Master, Strength of Will

Corpse Master
As he has progressed further down the twisted path of Necromancy, this individual has rotted away until he is more dead than alive, and feels perfectly at home surrounded by the rank flesh of the undead.The Necromancer may join Units of Zombies. Additionally, while in a unit of Zombies, as long as there is one or more zombies left, any challenges issued by enemy characters may be accepted by a zombie rather than the Necromancer.

Strength of Will
As his knowledge of Necromancy grows, so to does his control over the undead, meaning that the most experienced Necromancers can control their servants as completely as vampires.
At the beginning of each turn, the Necromancer may take a Ld test. If Passed, units within 6" may march as per the Vampire rule. If failed, this rule has no effect for that turn.

So what do people think?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok, I have amended the first post with the decision.

Now onto the Rubby Ducky's suggestions:

Power Familiar - I would say drop the +1 to the Ld roll.

Entrancing Familiar - Far to complicated for me. I would prefer something simpler like:

At the start of the enemies turn (before movement etc) nominate one spot within 24". Any enemy units within 12" but not closer than 4" (too close and you can see it is just an illusion) that have LOS to the spot must lake a Ld test. If passed they ignore the phenomenon. If failed any movements must be made towards the point, units suffering from frenzy must charge it. Affects units that are ItP.

Control Familiar - Drop to 15pts.


Hero Necro -

Personally I would have him knowing one necro spell as per the VC book. He can then have the following upgrades:

Add a necro spell for +15pts as per the VC book.
Upgrade to level 2 (PD only) for +25pts

He should also only have 2 wounds.

 

[Capt Rubber Ducky]

On the power familiar I went for +1 because the master necro is only LD 8 which isn't very high.

On I like your idea on the entrancing familiar but I think things shouldn't be able to march towards it just move normally.

IMO the number of spells this necro has depends on weather we keep the exsisting necromancer as a 'apprentice necromancer', if we do keep him, the (above necro) should start with 2 starting spells. If we scrap the exsisting necro I think we should go with DON's idea.

Yes, he should only have 2 wounds