TLOS probs

[Pladvoncarstein]

Had this come up in a game against ogres the other day. Had terrorgheist infront of a unit of ogres (3 models) ironblaster just behind (very close) . Now I wanted to scream at the ironblaster but due to the terrorgheists head being positioned low my oponent said I could not scream as I could not draw line of sight from the TG's eyes to the iron blaster. Is this correct? In the end screamed at the ogres and caused only 1 wound got charged and no more TG (glass hammer or what)

 

[VonDookie]

Had this come up in a game against ogres the other day. Had terrorgheist infront of a unit of ogres (3 models) ironblaster just behind (very close) . Now I wanted to scream at the ironblaster but due to the terrorgheists head being positioned low my oponent said I could not scream as I could not draw line of sight from the TG's eyes to the iron blaster. Is this correct? In the end screamed at the ogres and caused only 1 wound got charged and no more TG (glass hammer or what)

TLOS is such an issue in 8th imo... ugh...

Did you get down to the eye-level of the terrorgheist? - could you not see ANY part of the ironblasters? - including legs, arms, etc?..

 

[Bravo_10]

Hmm...I believe your opponent may have been right. TLOS is measured from the seeing model's eyes to any part of the target's body. Now, it's also hard to tell without seeing the game in person (thus the issue of the subjectivity of TLOS). Ironblasters are pretty tall...

/edit: Ninja'd!

 

[VonDookie]

Another viable option would be to model your terrorgheist using 6 more terrorgheist/zombie dragon heads... My Hydragheist never has LOS problems. /lawlz.

 

[Pladvoncarstein]

got down to eye level and couldnt see any of it. If ever I buy a second gheist Im gonna put it on some rocks or a building or something.

 

[Yorga]

Had this come up in a game against ogres the other day. Had terrorgheist infront of a unit of ogres (3 models) ironblaster just behind (very close) . Now I wanted to scream at the ironblaster but due to the terrorgheists head being positioned low my oponent said I could not scream as I could not draw line of sight from the TG's eyes to the iron blaster. Is this correct? In the end screamed at the ogres and caused only 1 wound got charged and no more TG (glass hammer or what)

1) I thought you said you were not going to play Vampire Counts with the new book?

2) Your opponent is a tool. Penalizing you because of a dramatic pose of a model. I thought the BRB said "Large targets can see over non-large target troops and conversely be seen."

3) Model your Terrorgheist on a big old rock.

 

[VonDookie]

got down to eye level and couldnt see any of it. If ever I buy a second gheist Im gonna put it on some rocks or a building or something.

Get a box of Ironblasters and put the gheist on top of them.

 

[Dklyn]

One tip I use for tLOS is a laser pointer as it's pretty indisputable.

But yeah pretty sure most of my opponents would let me draw LoS from the rider since the terrorgheist is obviously not walking around with his head on the ground.

 

[Grish]

Agreed Dklyn. In a game where models are supposedly much more dynamic than their positioning would indicate. For most models, measuring from the eyes makes sense as they're mainly upright. For some models it just doesn't make any sense.

 

[Tawg]

Another viable option would be to model your terrorgheist using 6 more terrorgheist/zombie dragon heads... My Hydragheist never has LOS problems. /lawlz.

lol, While that is a joke, I do hate that is isn't.. in a sense. Since converted models can vary in their size and such, it is kinda lame to use the models. Far more logical to come to logical agreements with friends rather than try and rules lawyer garbage. :ghost:

2) Your opponent is a tool. Penalizing you because of a dramatic pose of a model. I thought the BRB said "Large targets can see over non-large target troops and conversely be seen."

QFT

 

[Ashurei]

I think this is where you have to think about it from this perspective.

1. A terrorgheist is a large target. That should be more than enough to say that it is big enough to see your model.

2. It is a flyer. The model placement doesn't mean that it is sitting there, but that it is in that position.

3. I remember reading somewhere that a Large target could see over normal troops. Since Ogre's are not large targets, you should have been okay.

 

[Pladvoncarstein]

Had this come up in a game against ogres the other day. Had terrorgheist infront of a unit of ogres (3 models) ironblaster just behind (very close) . Now I wanted to scream at the ironblaster but due to the terrorgheists head being positioned low my oponent said I could not scream as I could not draw line of sight from the TG's eyes to the iron blaster. Is this correct? In the end screamed at the ogres and caused only 1 wound got charged and no more TG (glass hammer or what)

1) I thought you said you were not going to play Vampire Counts with the new book?

2) Your opponent is a tool. Penalizing you because of a dramatic pose of a model. I thought the BRB said "Large targets can see over non-large target troops and conversely be seen."

3) Model your Terrorgheist on a big old rock.

1) after reading the new book It became aparent that it is very well balanced and not overpowered as the last book was.


2) I also thought Id seen this but under the large target rule it just says about large targets not benefitting from cover via obsticles


3) might have to look at that

 

[Pladvoncarstein]

Another viable option would be to model your terrorgheist using 6 more terrorgheist/zombie dragon heads... My Hydragheist never has LOS problems. /lawlz.

lol, While that is a joke, I do hate that is isn't.. in a sense. Since converted models can vary in their size and such, it is kinda lame to use the models. Far more logical to come to logical agreements with friends rather than try and rules lawyer garbage. :ghost:

2) Your opponent is a tool. Penalizing you because of a dramatic pose of a model. I thought the BRB said "Large targets can see over non-large target troops and conversely be seen."

QFT

Can I get a page number for that please I cannot see it anywhere in the BRB. Large taget rule only mentions no cover from obsticles and a lord on LT has IP of 18 inches

 

[Ashurei]

- Line of Sight: Note that Warhammer uses 'true line of sight', and that models provide 'hard cover' for units behind them. I recommend reading through the shooting rules and checking the example on page 41.

Problem solved. You can target the unit behind them, but they get a hard cover save.

also random thing found...
Fear: Fear has changed profoundly - its only effect is to reduce an opponent's Weapon Skill to 1 if they fail a Leadership test. Note that the test is taken anew in each round of combat.

 

[Pladvoncarstein]

lol with the fear quote been playing like that since I first played this edition.

 

[Mad 'At]

TLOS is the worst thing that has happen to warhammer if you ask me. The look of the models should not, in any way, affect their performances on the battlefield. Only what base they are mounted on should matter, and that base size should really be included in their rules aswell (or I'll just go ahead and put my warshrine on a 20x20mm base).

As it is now you can make a Warplighting cannon that sees everything (with the GW box!), a unit which can only be seen through only from specific angles (good for wizards in bunkers) or even an entire invisible army.

Your case is just a sad example of this, RAW you opponent was right but for the sake of the game I'd say you could have screamed at the Ironblaster (but only because the TG is a large target).

 

[VonDookie]

- Line of Sight: Note that Warhammer uses 'true line of sight', and that models provide 'hard cover' for units behind them. I recommend reading through the shooting rules and checking the example on page 41.

Problem solved. You can target the unit behind them, but they get a hard cover save.

Not so fast... the rules state that intervening models may only obscure true line of sight if the majority of the nominated models you're attempting to shoot at are sight-blocked, then the nominated unit is counted as having hard cover (not a problem for a gheist regardless; no BS check)..

If they are still not at least partially visible (arm(s), leg(s), torso, etc; not banners, weapons, trinkets), then even models can block TLOS.. See page 39, under "Check that the shooter can see the target" - where it references TLOS on page 10... So if the intervening unit is 'large' enough - it can still block line of sight.

TLOS is the worst thing that has happen to warhammer if you ask me.

I couldn't agree more.

The look of the models should not, in any way, affect their performances on the battlefield. Only what base they are mounted on should matter, and that base size should really be included in their rules aswell (or I'll just go ahead and put my warshrine on a 20x20mm base).

As it is now you can make a Warplighting cannon that sees everything (with the GW box!), a unit which can only be seen through only from specific angles (good for wizards in bunkers) or even an entire invisible army.

Your case is just a sad example of this, RAW you opponent was right but for the sake of the game I'd say you could have screamed at the Ironblaster (but only because the TG is a large target).

Actually base sizes are specified within the BRB. pg 80 - models and base sizes..

I think that it's appropriate to mount stuff that isn't officially 'sold' - like a warshrine - on an appropriate base size - i think that a shrine is a 'Chariot' - and should be based on a chariot sized base (50x100 I think)..

On another note, I think I'm going to convert my hordes of zombies to be mounted on 5" high 'walls' as a themed zombie-over-the-wall army.. that way, my horde always blocks TLOS of anything behind them. :slapface:

 

[Tawg]

On another note, I think I'm going to convert my hordes of zombies to be mounted on 5" high 'walls' as a themed zombie-over-the-wall army.. that way, my horde always blocks TLOS of anything behind them. :slapface:

Sounds Legit

 

[No Life King]

I believe GWs stance on base size is a confusing: "Use the base the model comes with", which leaves nothing for custom models or conversions that didnt come with a base. Also, for ezample, the black coach comes with 2 cav bases and thats it.... so.... you can only contact the 100x100 square in front where the horses are?

TLoS is the dumbest thing, I spotted the cheese as soon as I read the new edition, and though me and my friends aren't douchebags about stuff like that, I can see the tourney rules-laywers crying foul, and then modeling all dragons on skyscrapers.

Another example of RAI trumping RAW. remember, the new hardcover books are great for bashing rules-lawyers....

 

[Seelenberührer]

I'm definitely going to model all of my unit standard bearers with a "banner" that's 8" high and 24" wide...

 

[Ashurei]

Remember this.. trul line of sight also effects the distance..

If you model a dragon 10 inches above the battlefield, your 18 inch range is going to go down to 6 inches.

 

[Dklyn]

Remember this.. trul line of sight also effects the distance..

If you model a dragon 10 inches above the battlefield, your 18 inch range is going to go down to 6 inches.

I think most people just do range as a horizontal distance.

And anyways, even if not, then I don't think this is true since the distance between the models should be 11.6 inches (the LoS would trace a diagonal line up to the dragon, so it would make a right triangle with one side 6 in, another 10 in and that makes the diagonal line 11.6 inches if I remember my geometry right. And that's not taking into account the height of the other model which would make the distance go down slightly)

 

[Bravo_10]

Either way, pretty sure Line of Sight doesn't effect the leadership bubble. As far as I know, all ranges are measured from base to base.

 

[Mad 'At]

Actually base sizes are specified within the BRB. pg 80 - models and base sizes..

I think that it's appropriate to mount stuff that isn't officially 'sold' - like a warshrine - on an appropriate base size - i think that a shrine is a 'Chariot' - and should be based on a chariot sized base (50x100 I think)..

Page 80 only says that models should be mounted on the base with which they are supplied with, if there is so base in the box then mount it on an appropriate base. Fine so far, but what happens when there is not model to by in the first place? The warshrine has no model and is actually a monster rule wise. I would mount it on a chariot base or something similar, but the rules dose not, in any way, stop me from building my "shrine" as a little statuette with a few candles around it, on a appropriate base size of 20x20mm. That is what bugs me.

I'm definitely going to model all of my unit standard bearers with a "banner" that's 8" high and 24" wide...

My point exactly, invisible army and playing by the rules.

I plan to build a cool looking BSB model someday, with the banner stretched across the back of the model. Then if anyone is being a douche to me rulewise I just place my BSB in front of his deathstar :devil2:

 

[Yorga]

Either way, pretty sure Line of Sight doesn't effect the leadership bubble. As far as I know, all ranges are measured from base to base.

That's how I play it. The bottom line is that I will not play with people that get so anal over the rules. The GW rules designers just don't think like 'tools' and are frequently surprised as to how their rules get interpretted. I suspect TLOS was designed to stop the abuse of hiding huge models behind a one inch high hill. It was also made to take into account that woods no longer block LOS automatically. Although, even here, you could 'work' the rules by putting so many trees and shrubs on your woods base that nobody could see through it.