Tomb Kings and Vampire Counts

[Sirihar]

I have been wondering recently about TK and VC, and if they ever had cause to battle against each other. My questions are:

1. If the Tomb Kings were to start retaking their lands from the living, would they ever come into conflict with lone vampires, necromancers, etc?

2. What would the TK reaction be to seeing VC? And vice versa?

 

[Vasiel]

Well.... from reading both the Tomb Kings and Vampire Count's History I believe that it would end up open war.

Settra the Imperishable and Nagash would be immortal enemies. For one, Settra was awoken damned and less than human because of Nagash and his corrupted magic. It could end up, that when Settra and Nagash meet face to face, even the might of Chaos will be quietened.

Woe the day the dead rise against each other!

Amorte!

Vas

P.S: If Tomb Kings ever found Lone Vampires.... chances are the Vampires would be executed immediately

 

[Crimson]

If the Tomb Kings manged to reach as far as the Empire where the majority of Vampires reside, they would have to make their way through Border Princes and the Badlands, ouch green skins, even after this there would be much resistance from the Empire it self, including dwarvern strongholds, and Tilean city-states, so I personally don't believe they'd get all that far. But, also in pitched combat in the fantasy world a Vampire Counts army is more advantages then a Tomb Kings when away from its home ground as the majority of Tomb King undead are sedentary and bound to certain areas and environments within Khermi.

 

[Sirihar]

Well.... from reading both the Tomb Kings and Vampire Count's History I believe that it would end up open war.

Open war does seem likely. But how likely?

Some more questions:

1. Would the TK be able to cope with the losses, since VC can raise both skeletons and zombies?

2. Are there more Tomb Kings than Vampire Counts? Or vice versa?

3. Would Queen Khahilda seek out 'Lahmian' Vampires'?

 

[The Inspector]

I personally don't believe they'd get all that far.

They made it all the way to Altdorf [very nearly taking the city, in fact] in the Nemesis Crown Campaign, if that counts for anything.

 

[Raziel]

Well.... from reading both the Tomb Kings and Vampire Count's History I believe that it would end up open war.

Open war does seem likely. But how likely?

Some more questions:

1. Would the TK be able to cope with the losses, since VC can raise both skeletons and zombies?

2. Are there more Tomb Kings than Vampire Counts? Or vice versa?

3. Would Queen Khahilda seek out 'Lahmian' Vampires'?

1.Pretty sure it would be a case of 'he who raises first wins' really

2.I'd say more Vampires than Tomb Kings

3.I think she'd just go after Neferata

 

[Vasiel]

However... if by chance Neferata, in all her power, or indeed Nagash Himself, decides to try and retake Lahmia (and one would presume that they'd gather as many Vampires too them as they can) then the fight would be held in Nehekhara.... meaning that it would possibly become a long drawn out campaign, and whoever gets caught in the middle, gets squished

And the Sands of Nehekhara hold hundreds of thousands of corpses..... perhaps even millions!

It would make a great fight for a worldwide Campaign.... two great Undead Armies obliterating everything in their path... whilst the Empire, Bretonnia, and the rest... struggle to survive.

Mwahahahahaha

Oh the possibility

Amorte!

Vas

 

[Trevy the Great]

1.Pretty sure it would be a case of 'he who raises first wins' really

While Necromantic Magic creates new soldiers out of the corpses of the old, Tomb King incantations repair damaged troops. I think this would put the TK in an advantage in an area lacking in corpses, as they do not require bodies to manufacture new soldiers. VC, on the other hand must go through a very time consuming process in order to repair their soldiers, one that involves a bunch of nails and neophyte Necromancers.

 

[Sirihar]

While Necromantic Magic creates new soldiers out of the corpses of the old, Tomb King incantations repair damaged troops. I think this would put the TK in an advantage in an area lacking in corpses, as they do not require bodies to manufacture new soldiers. VC, on the other hand must go through a very time consuming process in order to repair their soldiers, one that involves a bunch of nails and neophyte Necromancers.

So TK would probably win a long campaign, as the VC would be unable to replenish their armies?

 

[Raziel]

While Necromantic Magic creates new soldiers out of the corpses of the old, Tomb King incantations repair damaged troops. I think this would put the TK in an advantage in an area lacking in corpses, as they do not require bodies to manufacture new soldiers. VC, on the other hand must go through a very time consuming process in order to repair their soldiers, one that involves a bunch of nails and neophyte Necromancers.

So TK would probably win a long campaign, as the VC would be unable to replenish their armies?

Well no, VC could raise any fallen troops, and it's harder to make VC crumble then TK

 

[The Inspector]

From what I know of Tomb King fluff, they have a 'cap' on their army limit. That is, whatever they march to war with was buried within the Tomb King's necropolis. Each army has a certain amount of chariots, catapults, skeletons, and no more can be created.

Although this means that the Tomb Kings always have a large standing army [i.e everything is already 'built' and just waiting to be awoken] and would probably do well the initial stages of a campaign push, the Vamps would eventually raise an army without limits due to unlimited resources.

The living will keep dying, thereby constantly replenishing Vampiric troops. However, once a Khremian skeleton is broken beyond repair [smashed to pieces etc] then there is nothing to replace it.

 

[Grish]

I know with thier casket of souls they can capture more spirits; is this the only form of magic than can capture more than what they have?

 

[The Brotherhood of Necros]

I am sure I read somewhere about Tomb Kings burying more slaves, conquered slaves after campaigns etc, sticking them in pits of sand, and enchanted by the Liche Priests (however they do this) so that when next the Tomb King marches to war, he has another regiment of skeletons to add to his army.

Obviously, he couldn't do this with specific regiments like Tomb Guard, who by definition guarded the King when he lived, but as for standard skeleton regiments, I am sure this is something they do.

TPL

 

[The Inspector]

I know with thier casket of souls they can capture more spirits; is this the only form of magic than can capture more than what they have?

I suppose, but they can't use the souls in any useful fashion other than for filling up the Casket. Once the souls are in the Casket, there they shall remain until the Casket is destroyed.

I really don't know enough about Tomb King fluff to provide a definite answer, but I think in a large scale conflict [invasion!] the Vamps would probably be able to win after taking heavy initial losses. As long as it wasn't on Khemrian home-turf, of course...

 

[Crimson]

As the Casket of Souls is used to capture the souls of the dead, what is to happen to the souls of the individuals which are taken once the casket is destroyed, are they cast into the winds of chaos or does something else happen, entirely?

 

[Danceman]

The Khemrians were obsessed with death. The cities of the dead soon outnumbered the living both is size and "beauty". The Tomb Kings are quite numerous and they are more or less united under Settra's banner as opposed to Vampires who are split into many factions.

As for limited resources, yes but they can indeed create new soldiers. Those who perish in the deserts often end up serving the tomb kings(also in the manner The Pale Lady describe). Skeletal warriors are in no way "a fixed number" they are just prepared differently than the soldiers of the vampire counts.
New Scorpions, Ushabti and Giants are also being built. It is not a common occurence but it happends. Remember the Vizier of Quatar, right? Quite an artist when it comes to building new undead constructs. Even if these constructs are destroyed they can often be reassembled, if you can get your hands on the bits of course.
The liche priests have had a long time working on their arts and most certainly do not just sit around to wake up the king and his army when an intruder comes along.

The most important factor for Vampire Counts are if they can unite and to be lead by a single strong vampire. This in itself is quite hard to achieve as the most powerful vampires wouldnt exactly bow to someone "lesser" than themselves. Treason are definately not unheard of when the counts has gone to war, the stolen ring of vlad for example, Zacharias betraying Melikor(sp?) and on. So in short I believe the greatest enemy of the Vampire Counts will be the arrogance and lust for power for themselves.

All in all I think it would be one looooooooooooooong stalemate which would lead to a tactical retreat due to heavy losses. As powerful vampires are if the big bad lord falls a huge portion of the VC army would crumble and there is no way possible for other vampires to just "pick up the slack". Same goes for the TKs. A prolonged war would just weaken both race and make them lose ground.

 

[Crimson]

As we are discussing Tomb kings are the Ushabti animated statues, or something else? I never really looked into what they where.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Can someone clarify Ushabti for me? I thought they were 10 ft tall animated statues, the book "Nagash the Sorcerer" states they were normal men, highly trained, and imbued with the powers of a respective Nehekharan god?

 

[Dark Lord Nihilus]

Ushabti are constructs animated by the priests, not exactly statues. They are composed of a wide array of materials such as bone, stone, wood, etc. (essentially anything the priests could get their hands on). They are built in the likeness of the Nehekharan gods, techinically they are imbued with the gods' powers as they are animated through the priests' incantations which in turn derive power from their gods, but they are not directly "empowered" by the their respective god.

Hope that helps....

 

[Danceman]

Dark Lord is spot on. Also, these contructs does not need to be awakened. They are like, the giants on stand-by so to speak. Which is why the valley of the kings(of the dead) is so dangerous because you will literally have an army of self-sufficient undead constructs, and not only ushabti and giants. The Vizier of Quatar got a bunch of suprises in there as well.

Danceman.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Ok - I understand that they are more constructs, than statues. But it still does not explain the discrepancy between that and the Ushabti in Nagash the Sorcerer - anyone have any ideas?

 

[Danceman]

The TK book also mentions the inspiration they brought to the nehekharan legions as they fought alongside them. Which could have been human before getting imbued with "ushabti" armour. Perhaps the Nagash book was referring to this. Havent read it though, so it is just a guess.

Danceman.

 

[curryoflife]

Maybe to construct the constructs, you need to bind the soul of someone into the statue/construct, they imbue the souls of normal people into the constructs to make them move? Just a thought.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Hmmm, so no one has a definitive answer in regards to the two different types of Ushabti?

 

[Crimson]

Perhaps the Ushabti function somewhat like Wights, were the soul of the individual is taken by a Liche before it can enter the atheyr and then put inside one of the constructs?