I'm almost positive there has been a thread like this. I couldnt find it though... any way what do you guys think the top five best armies are? best meaning overall best competitively, units wise, magic wise. Basically just overall..best
Top five armies
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For the 5 most powerful armies i'd go for (In a particular order) but that's an easy question to answer
Deamons
Dark elves
Vampires
Warriors of Chaos
Lizards
For the 5 best (overall best combinations, units wise (model wise), magic wise (coolest). Basically just overall..best (Good fluff/stories)) armies in my opinion however would go
Vampires (That's why I choose them)
Brets
Goblins! (Not the Orcs, just the goblins)
Lizards
Wood elves
Deamons
Dark elves
Vampires
Warriors of Chaos
Lizards
For the 5 best (overall best combinations, units wise (model wise), magic wise (coolest). Basically just overall..best (Good fluff/stories)) armies in my opinion however would go
Vampires (That's why I choose them)
Brets
Goblins! (Not the Orcs, just the goblins)
Lizards
Wood elves
I'd agree with the capt on this one, at least partially. The top three are indisputable; (Deamons, Dark Elves, Vampires) however the top position is debatable between Deamons and Dark Elves. The next two though are more of a issue. I'd consider putting lizards at No.4, as I don't think WoC are that powerful, they just have the gateway and some powerful stuff, but not overwhelming. I'd call it as;
1. Dark Elves (As they can make a army that will win in all phases of the game)
2. Deamons
3. Vampires
4. Skaven
5. Lizzards
Skaven can be insanely dirty with their hellpit a-bomb, combined with the doom wheel, or large unbreakable stuff (Furnace etc.) Lizzards similarly, playing a magic max slann list is not fun, and they can do that and throw in a few dinosaurs. I'd say the above order could be debated, but not really which armies are there, as I can't see any of the other armies competing from a pure power perspective.
Note this is solely of the power of the army book
1. Dark Elves (As they can make a army that will win in all phases of the game)
2. Deamons
3. Vampires
4. Skaven
5. Lizzards
Skaven can be insanely dirty with their hellpit a-bomb, combined with the doom wheel, or large unbreakable stuff (Furnace etc.) Lizzards similarly, playing a magic max slann list is not fun, and they can do that and throw in a few dinosaurs. I'd say the above order could be debated, but not really which armies are there, as I can't see any of the other armies competing from a pure power perspective.
Note this is solely of the power of the army book
Ahh I forgot about skaven! I'd go with Oracle's list of top 5 then. In the strange workings in my mind which are far too complicated to explain Lizards stay at 5 in my list and WoC drop off the list.
my own feelings as to the top 5? i totally agree on the armies already mentioned; daemons, vamps, lizzies, rats, emo elves.
the order though, i feel ranks up like:
1) daemons. no question, a competitive daemon army steamrolls everyone... unless you've designed your list specifically to kill daemons, you're dead meat!
2) dark elves. they can out-magic anyone, or they can out-shoot anyone and of corse, they're elves so they're generally faster... an hydras are over-powered nonsense!
3) VC's/lizzies/skaven. to me, i think the 3-5 spots are a real toss up as list composition makes or breaks who can fit where in the order... VC's can dominate magically and outlast anyone if they're built as a pure invo spam. but take that away and the list fails...
lizzies can become utterly broken when facing down a maxed-out slaan + engines & hoards of skirmishing skinks who just poison everything to death...
rats meanwhile can simply spam a very gross amount of toughness tests that can lead to units never getting to swing in combat... (elves & other T3/2 units are very prone to this misfortune!)
now, imho, i also feel that WoC can be considered 'tied' for that 5th spot, since they also have some very nasty builds. mark of nurgle spam hurts, and when chosen are combined with bunkered 2 warshrines things can get out of hand very quickly!!!
for example, in a recent game, my opponent's chosen unit was et-up as;
18 chosen w/full command, great weapons, MoN, banner of rage, favor of the gods on champ.
*joined by festus the leachlord & Lv2 sorc w/MoS.
once the 3 eye of the gods effects were rolled up, the unit had:
4+ sv/4+ ward & stubborn
+1A. (so each model had 4 attacks! the champ had 5!!!)
MR3
nothing i had could touch that unit... even when flanked on either side, faced with grave guard to the front & horribly out numbered, they still killed every last one of my infantry! (even the blood knights would have bounced off that unit!)
so yes, i feel that WoC are a potential 5th spot in the 'top army' standings!
cheers!
the order though, i feel ranks up like:
1) daemons. no question, a competitive daemon army steamrolls everyone... unless you've designed your list specifically to kill daemons, you're dead meat!
2) dark elves. they can out-magic anyone, or they can out-shoot anyone and of corse, they're elves so they're generally faster... an hydras are over-powered nonsense!
3) VC's/lizzies/skaven. to me, i think the 3-5 spots are a real toss up as list composition makes or breaks who can fit where in the order... VC's can dominate magically and outlast anyone if they're built as a pure invo spam. but take that away and the list fails...
lizzies can become utterly broken when facing down a maxed-out slaan + engines & hoards of skirmishing skinks who just poison everything to death...
rats meanwhile can simply spam a very gross amount of toughness tests that can lead to units never getting to swing in combat... (elves & other T3/2 units are very prone to this misfortune!)
now, imho, i also feel that WoC can be considered 'tied' for that 5th spot, since they also have some very nasty builds. mark of nurgle spam hurts, and when chosen are combined with bunkered 2 warshrines things can get out of hand very quickly!!!
for example, in a recent game, my opponent's chosen unit was et-up as;
18 chosen w/full command, great weapons, MoN, banner of rage, favor of the gods on champ.
*joined by festus the leachlord & Lv2 sorc w/MoS.
once the 3 eye of the gods effects were rolled up, the unit had:
4+ sv/4+ ward & stubborn
+1A. (so each model had 4 attacks! the champ had 5!!!)
MR3
nothing i had could touch that unit... even when flanked on either side, faced with grave guard to the front & horribly out numbered, they still killed every last one of my infantry! (even the blood knights would have bounced off that unit!)
so yes, i feel that WoC are a potential 5th spot in the 'top army' standings!
cheers!
Power level wise:
I concur that 1 and 2 are basically undisputed, though some might debate the order.
1. Daemons
2. Dark Elves
then:
3-5 is Skaven, Lizzies and Vampires
I also agree that all three of those could contend for 3rd. It'd basically come down to how broken of a list is used.
I concur that 1 and 2 are basically undisputed, though some might debate the order.
1. Daemons
2. Dark Elves
then:
3-5 is Skaven, Lizzies and Vampires
I also agree that all three of those could contend for 3rd. It'd basically come down to how broken of a list is used.
I'll haveta make these into two separate lists. You have the top 5 Tournament armies, and then in my opinion the top 5 fun armies.
Tourney armies have already been stated. Daemons, DElves, Vampires, Lizards, New Skaven. Those are pretty much indisputable.
As for the fun/Fluffy armies?
Brets-- The Arthurian legends have held strong, and have a sweet spot in my heart. Who doesn't love heroic cavalry charges?
Orcs and Goblins- Random, completely wacky fun. Great to the point of ridiculous when they work together, great to the point of ridiculous when they argue. It's just fun.
Vampires-- Raising hordes of undead to consume the living? Which one of us Vampire players hasn't dreamt of that in some time in our lives?
Dwarves-- Very Character filled, and to me really exemplifies the 'Wave Breaking' mentality. You charge, I hold. I chop you up, you die. And your name is in the Book, Huzzah.
High Elves-- Purely for their fluff. I see high Elves as the 'Proud' race. They're bad*ss and they know it, but their numbers are so few that even a single death reverberates through the ranks.
A bit of a different list, but then again, we're all different people. I play armies for the Fluff, starting a Brettonian army based on the members of CN, and I play Vampires of the Lahmian flavor. Fluff is big for me, I can't get motivated to paint or play without a driving force of some kind. Plus the 'Cool' factor is big with me, and I almost get dragged into the 'Ooh, shiney!' syndrome as much as Zanos. Almost.
Tourney armies have already been stated. Daemons, DElves, Vampires, Lizards, New Skaven. Those are pretty much indisputable.
As for the fun/Fluffy armies?
Brets-- The Arthurian legends have held strong, and have a sweet spot in my heart. Who doesn't love heroic cavalry charges?
Orcs and Goblins- Random, completely wacky fun. Great to the point of ridiculous when they work together, great to the point of ridiculous when they argue. It's just fun.
Vampires-- Raising hordes of undead to consume the living? Which one of us Vampire players hasn't dreamt of that in some time in our lives?
Dwarves-- Very Character filled, and to me really exemplifies the 'Wave Breaking' mentality. You charge, I hold. I chop you up, you die. And your name is in the Book, Huzzah.
High Elves-- Purely for their fluff. I see high Elves as the 'Proud' race. They're bad*ss and they know it, but their numbers are so few that even a single death reverberates through the ranks.
A bit of a different list, but then again, we're all different people. I play armies for the Fluff, starting a Brettonian army based on the members of CN, and I play Vampires of the Lahmian flavor. Fluff is big for me, I can't get motivated to paint or play without a driving force of some kind. Plus the 'Cool' factor is big with me, and I almost get dragged into the 'Ooh, shiney!' syndrome as much as Zanos. Almost.
Hey - I don't suffer from ooh, shiny! syndrome at all! I'm only starting Blood Angels (more like converting to Blood Angels) on account of rules and my playstyle.
Back to the topic, top 5 armies are Daemons, Dark Elves, Skaven (especially if you load your dice and get the 13th spell off two times in a game with irresistible force *grumble*) Vampires, Lizzies.
Back to the topic, top 5 armies are Daemons, Dark Elves, Skaven (especially if you load your dice and get the 13th spell off two times in a game with irresistible force *grumble*) Vampires, Lizzies.
Well I think we will all find after the introduction of the 8th that this list may drastically change, with VC definitely dropping down the lists. I Still think DoC will remain at the top though.
Disciple of Nagash said:
Personly I think they might be overtaken by Dark elves, DoC have a lot of points in hero's, so if the 25% cap comes into play then they'll be weakened. Dark elves may have to cut down on hero's but not as much, as assasins are core! (Well i'm pretty sure they are)
If they do the character cap (which I think is a stupid idea, cap rares, cap specials, please cap warmachines for god's sake, but characters are not needed) then Daemons will likely drop on account of not being able to have greater daemons that are worth a crap (besides thirsters) in 2000. The preferred daemon list with a character cap would probably be thirster/horror spam with flamers thrown in for good measure. Lovely, I'm sure you all would agree...
Disciple of Nagash said:
Not so sure. If the fear/terror mechanics are going the way of static CR generation then I think VC will be able to dish out a ton of it. War banner, BSB, Walking Death, Terror + 3 ranks and outnumber means you're going to have a static CR of 8. Then add in the odd kill and the kills from the vampire within the unit.
It is going to shift us into a more of an offencive playstyle, or atleast our abilities will have an actual impact on the combat rather than just sit there and hope when you manage to win a combat you outnumber your opponents side.
Daemons; Potent heroes, solid core, special and rare choices. They won't go the same route as before but there won't be many dragons or 'uberlords' out on there on the playing field anyways. Also, their heroes can in many cases take on other armies lord choices and come out ontop.
Dark Elves: If they take a dragon, no magic defence at all. This will hurt some builds but DE got plenty of other builds.
Vampire Counts: I am, for now, quite optimistic. They magic changes, choosing spells will make magic apart of the 'hard' strategy, and not a tactical element you need to consider by random chance at the beginning of the battlefield. We can multi-cast game-winning spells. This + the Static CR machine infantry units of doom will make for some wicked changes.
The changes will probably make VC more enjoyable to face, and to play.
Though as we're still dealing with rumours, I am going to reserve myself here(or try atleast!). Then there is the horde rule...
So yeah, I am feeling good about the changes. Will make VC more interesting.
Infact, all races will have to reconsider their character choices and it is a good thing in my humble opinion.
Right now though I will echo what others already have stated;
1. Daemons of Chaos
2. Dark Elves
3. Vampire Counts
4. Skaven
5. Lizardmen
Lord Reginer
Zombie
Dwarves are number one, at making sure any top tier army doesn't win big. They may not win games, but any one notice they are great at giving every one a pain in the ass to score a huge win.
the top 5 armies in my opinion are those armies that have the grandest abilities of variation, i.e. where you can make every army different from the one you just played, and that are also capable or taking part in every phase (some shooting, some magic, some fast units, some hard hitting and so on), and that they are also fun to play AGAINST (not just like "hey, here comes that wave of Bretonnian cavalry again, as always" and then whether you win or loose doesn't matter, it still ended up a game pretty much just like last time. and the time before that.)
So in my opinion that boils down to these five being the top:
1. Orcs and goblins
2. Empire
3. High elves
4. Dark elves
5. Tomb Kings
So in my opinion that boils down to these five being the top:
1. Orcs and goblins
2. Empire
3. High elves
4. Dark elves
5. Tomb Kings
Top 5:
1. Daemons
Unless someone really forces a soft/strong themed list at the expense of effectiveness... the majority of Daemon armies will at least be a tough challenge.
2. Dark Elves
This depends on the tournament format a bit. Dark Elves can be made to be soft very easily. So in friendlier enviroments, or casual gaming, they might not necessarily be in the top 2. However, while they can be made soft very easily, they can also be made VERY tough just as easily... especially if the opponent knows how to use them!
3 & 4: VC and Skaven
Both can be very nasty, though both have a weakness or two that could be used against them. However, they will be a challenge. As with Dark Elves, you can make friendly/soft lists with them.
5. Lizards or Warriors of Chaos
I know, that is technically 6. I lean more towards Lizards getting this, as they have some amazing choices. Warriors of Chaos can be very good, but I am of the opinion they are a bit of a glass jaw. If one thing goes wrong, or the WoC player's opponent nuetralizes one component of the army... the WoC army is severely weakened. However, they should not be underestimated.
Though I do think this list will change dramatically with the new edition. I think WoC might be #1 or #2 in the new edition to be perfectly honest.
1. Daemons
Unless someone really forces a soft/strong themed list at the expense of effectiveness... the majority of Daemon armies will at least be a tough challenge.
2. Dark Elves
This depends on the tournament format a bit. Dark Elves can be made to be soft very easily. So in friendlier enviroments, or casual gaming, they might not necessarily be in the top 2. However, while they can be made soft very easily, they can also be made VERY tough just as easily... especially if the opponent knows how to use them!
3 & 4: VC and Skaven
Both can be very nasty, though both have a weakness or two that could be used against them. However, they will be a challenge. As with Dark Elves, you can make friendly/soft lists with them.
5. Lizards or Warriors of Chaos
I know, that is technically 6. I lean more towards Lizards getting this, as they have some amazing choices. Warriors of Chaos can be very good, but I am of the opinion they are a bit of a glass jaw. If one thing goes wrong, or the WoC player's opponent nuetralizes one component of the army... the WoC army is severely weakened. However, they should not be underestimated.
Though I do think this list will change dramatically with the new edition. I think WoC might be #1 or #2 in the new edition to be perfectly honest.
I'd say:
1. Dark Elves (Versatility)
2. Daemons (Brokenness)
3 - 5. Skaven VCs Lizards (very close power level)
DEs are simply the mutt's nuts. Dirty shooting, dirty magic and dirty melee ability, plus plenty of cheap stuff and they look cool to boot.
DoC are just better than everyone else (for now), but not as sneaky as DEs.
Skaven, Vamps and Lizzies are fairly similar in power level, some abuse-heavy builds in each list but nothing unbeatable.
Imo WoC are weaker than their old book. They're over-reliant on magic and special troops to get the job done these days.
8th ed will shake up the balance a bit I expect. A lot of people seem to have convinced themselves VCs are in for a major nerf compared to everyone else, I don't think this is necessarily true. I would expect to start seeing a lot more Corpse Carts to cover the comparative loss in characters' magic though
Personally I'm looking at double Grave Guard units for my army, with the rumoured increase in standard game size. Then some very large units of zombies and Ghouls. Oh yes. Gimme that Horde rule....
1. Dark Elves (Versatility)
2. Daemons (Brokenness)
3 - 5. Skaven VCs Lizards (very close power level)
DEs are simply the mutt's nuts. Dirty shooting, dirty magic and dirty melee ability, plus plenty of cheap stuff and they look cool to boot.
DoC are just better than everyone else (for now), but not as sneaky as DEs.
Skaven, Vamps and Lizzies are fairly similar in power level, some abuse-heavy builds in each list but nothing unbeatable.
Imo WoC are weaker than their old book. They're over-reliant on magic and special troops to get the job done these days.
8th ed will shake up the balance a bit I expect. A lot of people seem to have convinced themselves VCs are in for a major nerf compared to everyone else, I don't think this is necessarily true. I would expect to start seeing a lot more Corpse Carts to cover the comparative loss in characters' magic though
Personally I'm looking at double Grave Guard units for my army, with the rumoured increase in standard game size. Then some very large units of zombies and Ghouls. Oh yes. Gimme that Horde rule....based purely of my collection of white dwarf battle reports (ranging from 3rd to 7th edition) this is the current ranking (based on percentage of battles that result in wins)
1 Chaos Dwarfs
2 Vampires
3 Dark elves
4 Wood Elves
5 Bretonnia
6 Orcs
7 Empire
8 Chaos
9 Beastmen
10 Slann
11 High elves
12 Ogres
13 Tomb Kings
14 Skaven
15 Dwarfs
16 Dogs of War
and yes, I know white dwarf battle reports don't mean crap, but I thought I'd share the information anyway.
(Also worth mentioning is that according to those battle reports, it's useless to try and defend a castle or village, you'll just loose the battle anyway. And it's a waste to have a flank attack, it just means your main army will be destroyed and when the other part shows up, they're utterly outnumbered. And finally it's a good thing to field a Dragon. That almost always ensures your army wins.)
1 Chaos Dwarfs
2 Vampires
3 Dark elves
4 Wood Elves
5 Bretonnia
6 Orcs
7 Empire
8 Chaos
9 Beastmen
10 Slann
11 High elves
12 Ogres
13 Tomb Kings
14 Skaven
15 Dwarfs
16 Dogs of War
and yes, I know white dwarf battle reports don't mean crap, but I thought I'd share the information anyway.
(Also worth mentioning is that according to those battle reports, it's useless to try and defend a castle or village, you'll just loose the battle anyway. And it's a waste to have a flank attack, it just means your main army will be destroyed and when the other part shows up, they're utterly outnumbered. And finally it's a good thing to field a Dragon. That almost always ensures your army wins.)
