Undead and chaos daemons

[TMS]

Hey,

I've been thinking about the possibilities of combining fluff for undead and daemons. The only precedence I know of is Heinrich Kemmler who struck a pact with the "dark gods" (presumably Chaos, no?) to restore his power. Undead has otherwise been said to be the total antithesis to Chaos since they're soulless, but could a mighty necromancer theoretically summon and enslave daemons? What do you think?

 

[Get of W'soran]

Hey,

I've been thinking about the possibilities of combining fluff for undead and daemons. The only precedence I know of is Heinrich Kemmler who struck a pact with the "dark gods" (presumably Chaos, no?) to restore his power. Undead has otherwise been said to be the total antithesis to Chaos since they're soulless, but could a mighty necromancer theoretically summon and enslave daemons? What do you think?

Necromancer's are just mortal sorcerers who focus in Necromancy, they can do anything any sorcerer can do.

I see no reason why a Vampire couldn't summon and enslave daemons either, Chaos can't touch them but why can't they touch Chaos? It's just magic.

 

[TMS]

Good points, GoW. Going by that I'd say it makes perfect sense for a vampire to summon daemons if their souls are safe from predation.

Gives me some justification for including cool daemonic models in my army instead of having to go with DoC just to field them. erv:

 

[Ghouly]

a Vampires soul might be safe, but their bodies arn't

 

[Bullhax]

a Vampires soul might be safe, but their bodies arn't

Hehe interesting.. Somewhat the same goes with necromancy, revive too many and get eaten when you can't control them, what was that 7th ed item called that had some fluff bit about just that? It gave a bonus to raise dead or something similar

 

[Get of W'soran]

a Vampires soul might be safe, but their bodies arn't

Hehe interesting.. Somewhat the same goes with necromancy, revive too many and get eaten when you can't control them, what was that 7th ed item called that had some fluff bit about just that? It gave a bonus to raise dead or something similar

In both cases it's the person's ability to preform the magic that keeps them safe from their conjured servants, whether that's Necromancy or Daemonology.

 

[Irisado]

I can't see vampires summoning Daemons myself. They don't have a connection to the Chaos realms in that way through their magic. They are not, generally speaking, in the habit of making pacts with the ruinous powers.

Necromancers, on the other hand, are more likely, in some cases, to have such power. This could make for an interesting back story for some tension between the vampire leader (normally the dominant force in an undead army), and the Necromancer, owing to the fact that the latter would have far more power than is usual in the balance of power relationship between the Necromancer and his vampiric 'master'. who is really the master in that situation?

 

[Get of W'soran]

I can't see vampires summoning Daemons myself. They don't have a connection to the Chaos realms in that way through their magic. They are not, generally speaking, in the habit of making pacts with the ruinous powers.

Necromancers, on the other hand, are more likely, in some cases, to have such power. This could make for an interesting back story for some tension between the vampire leader (normally the dominant force in an undead army), and the Necromancer, owing to the fact that the latter would have far more power than is usual in the balance of power relationship between the Necromancer and his vampiric 'master'. who is really the master in that situation?

You don't need to make pacts to summon Daemons, it is simply a case of knowing out to open a portal to the Realms of Chaos and having the power to force them to materialise and then binding them to your will.
Daemonology spells.

Of course the easiest way to do so would be to be a Chaos Sorcerer and make such deals to gain the necessary power and knowledge but it isn't the only way.

Magic is magic, simply a realm to study, a realm the vampire won't have to worry about being corrupted by since their soul locked inside the physical world.

I can see them doing it, just can't see why they'd bother. Necromancy would be so much handier, more useful and easier. Plus maintaining the dead is bound to be easier than holding daemons in the physical world.

There are images in..Realms of Magic I think it is, of college magi having summoned daemons inside of wardings, likely to question for knowledge.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Well quite simply, why wouldn't a vampire want deamon allies? I mean you can only resu rect those who have died but the power in the chaos realm is endless!

 

[Get of W'soran]

Well quite simply, why wouldn't a vampire want deamon allies? I mean you can only resu rect those who have died but the power in the chaos realm is endless!

But holding daemons in the physical realm requires quite a lot of energy and if you loose concentration they'll turn on you as they're bound but not mindless.

Necromancy is just safer...relatively safer.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Yeah this is true, but what of a pact due to a common enemy? I mean that kinda stuff happens all the time!

 

[Ghouly]

Daemons always turn on the one who summons them always

 

[Corien Sumatris]

So as long as their is an alliance between the 2 then demons wont kill the vamps but instead kill whoever it was that summoned them!

 

[Irisado]

You don't need to make pacts to summon Daemons, it is simply a case of knowing out to open a portal to the Realms of Chaos and having the power to force them to materialise and then binding them to your will.
Daemonology spells.

Of course the easiest way to do so would be to be a Chaos Sorcerer and make such deals to gain the necessary power and knowledge but it isn't the only way.

Magic is magic, simply a realm to study, a realm the vampire won't have to worry about being corrupted by since their soul locked inside the physical world.

I can see them doing it, just can't see why they'd bother. Necromancy would be so much handier, more useful and easier. Plus maintaining the dead is bound to be easier than holding daemons in the physical world.

There are images in..Realms of Magic I think it is, of college magi having summoned daemons inside of wardings, likely to question for knowledge.

I accept that some of the most powerful vampires may be capable of doing it, but my issue is more the one you've touched on regarding willingness. I don't think that they'd really want to go down that route. They've got far more reliable minions than daemons, whose total obedience is not guaranteed, even if the vampire in question manages to do some kind of deal with a Chaos Sorcerer who commands them.

All of which leads me neatly into...

Well quite simply, why wouldn't a vampire want deamon allies? I mean you can only resu rect those who have died but the power in the chaos realm is endless!

Because the daemons would not bow to his will. They could easily turn on the vampire; whereas the legions of the undead under his/her command will not do that.

Daemons are fickle, so while their power may be tempting, they're not at all reliable as partners. As allies they would hardly be bound to the vampire after all .

 

[Get of W'soran]

You don't need to make pacts to summon Daemons, it is simply a case of knowing out to open a portal to the Realms of Chaos and having the power to force them to materialise and then binding them to your will.
Daemonology spells.

Of course the easiest way to do so would be to be a Chaos Sorcerer and make such deals to gain the necessary power and knowledge but it isn't the only way.

Magic is magic, simply a realm to study, a realm the vampire won't have to worry about being corrupted by since their soul locked inside the physical world.

I can see them doing it, just can't see why they'd bother. Necromancy would be so much handier, more useful and easier. Plus maintaining the dead is bound to be easier than holding daemons in the physical world.

There are images in..Realms of Magic I think it is, of college magi having summoned daemons inside of wardings, likely to question for knowledge.

I accept that some of the most powerful vampires may be capable of doing it, but my issue is more the one you've touched on regarding willingness. I don't think that they'd really want to go down that route. They've got far more reliable minions than daemons, whose total obedience is not guaranteed, even if the vampire in question manages to do some kind of deal with a Chaos Sorcerer who commands them.

Oh yes I agree with you in this. I feel it'd be most likely in a magically-inclined vampire of either ancient age or spent his mortal life practising Daemonology.

Either way a rare vampire, just not impossible.

All of which leads me neatly into...

Well quite simply, why wouldn't a vampire want deamon allies? I mean you can only resu rect those who have died but the power in the chaos realm is endless!

Because the daemons would not bow to his will. They could easily turn on the vampire; whereas the legions of the undead under his/her command will not do that.

Daemons are fickle, so while their power may be tempting, they're not at all reliable as partners. As allies they would hardly be bound to the vampire after all .

Agreed again, it would likely take constant vigilance on the part of the Vampire who must ensure his protective spells and bindings on the Daemons are enforced.
The slightest mistake and nomnomnom bye bye vampire.

 

[Count Vashra]

I'd say not worth the risk. And even if the Daemon is killed, it'll regenerate in the Realm of Chaos and then come back for vengeance in a hundred or so years. Best to just use endless legions of mindless Undead.

 

[Duke Danse Macabre]

I can't see vampires summoning Daemons myself. They don't have a connection to the Chaos realms in that way through their magic. They are not, generally speaking, in the habit of making pacts with the ruinous powers.

Necromancers, on the other hand, are more likely, in some cases, to have such power. This could make for an interesting back story for some tension between the vampire leader (normally the dominant force in an undead army), and the Necromancer, owing to the fact that the latter would have far more power than is usual in the balance of power relationship between the Necromancer and his vampiric 'master'. who is really the master in that situation?

I distinctly remember a part in the vampire wars books where lad was fighting a chaos lord who was pretending to be a lord in his domain at the time.
Ended with Vlad turning his tongue to maggots before killing him in true Vampiric fashion.

Not to say a deamon but Chaos and undead do not get along.
("Blood is for the Blood God, not for Drinking" comes to mind)


Not no, it is common for wizards to summon deamons, hell even Balthazar Gelt has done so when fighting against Vampires.
It stands to reason he could use them if needs be.
Constant Drakenfels Himself if i recall had a soft spot of Nurgle in the books but was a master of undead himself, Daemons can not be trusted but can be bound for a time if you are strong of mind and in a land like Sylvanina so close to Mordheim and with the amount of warp stone they have at their disposal this can be done and sustained, for a time at least.