Undead BSB?

[Bravo_10]

Hi everybody!

So the question's in the title I guess. Do you use an undead BSB? Even if you don't comment, feel free to leave your answer in the poll so I have an idea what the demographic here is.

Obviously undead BSB's don't have quite the same appeal of living armies' BSB's, which tend to be something of an auto-include for armies that use large blocks of steadfast infantry. But as long as I take a Wight King in my army, I shell out the 25 points for a battle standard. I do this for two reasons:

1) Offering 1 less crumbling wound to everyone in range is golden. In the BSB's unit, this essentially means that you'll take 2 less wounds from losing combat (1 from the crumble relief and one from the +1 CR from having a battle standard). If your BSB's in a unit of GW-wielding Grave Guard, the standard saves its point cost in models every time you lose combat.

2) Swift reform leadership tests. Undead have pitifully low leadership outside of their characters, and units that don't contain a character or aren't in range of the general likely won't be able to swift reform. Having a BSB however allows you to spread out the swift reform ability, plus it gives your troops support for other leadership tests as well (including crumbling from general-death, which can save the day big time).

So what do you think? Am I full of it? Or do you also believe in the power of the battle standard?

 

[najo]

The 25 pts is worth it. If I run a vampire or a wight king I always throw the BSB on them. Totally worth it.

 

[Bravo_10]

I've never really been sold on the Vamp BSB, mainly because I find Vampires to be so easily killable. Wight Kings do a better job of holding their points and denying the +50 VP for killing your battle standard. But with the right magic item layout, I'd certainly go in for it too.

/edit: Edited poll to allow for an either/or choice. Forgot about that.

 

[LordTobiothan]

I simply can't be bothered to include one. Anything that is going to need a leadership test and fail it was likely just wound fodder in a vamp army anyway.

Grave guard might be the one exception. But if they are losing combat your losing the game pretty hard anyway. 2 extra models a turn isn't likely to change that.

 

[Bravo_10]

I simply can't be bothered to include one. Anything that is going to need a leadership test and fail it was likely just wound fodder in a vamp army anyway.

Grave guard might be the one exception. But if they are losing combat your losing the game pretty hard anyway. 2 extra models a turn isn't likely to change that.

I mean, if they're getting clobbered in combat then you're shafted. But if you take a Chaos Warrior charge and lose by 3 or 4, you mitigate some of the damage and are in a good position to raise more models the next turn. I think its utility in that regard depends on the amount that you're losing combat by pretty heavily. Like if your BSB is in a unit of Zombies, you're going to be underwhelmed.

 

[LordTobiothan]

I mean, if they're getting clobbered in combat then you're shafted. But if you take a Chaos Warrior charge and lose by 3 or 4, you mitigate some of the damage and are in a good position to raise more models the next turn. I think its utility in that regard depends on the amount that you're losing combat by pretty heavily. Like if your BSB is in a unit of Zombies, you're going to be underwhelmed.

With or without the bsb if a chaos warrior brick made that charge and expected to win the attrition war or break them on the charge without back up I've already won.

With back up you are boned either way. And this still only makes the bsb useful with elite troop blocks, which consist of just grave guard basically.

 

[Atrophus]

I never used to include one, but if I'm running a Wight king I don't mind paying the extra 25 points.
It pays for itself after a couple of turns in combat, even on skeletons. Plus it neutralises the extra combat res from enemy bsb.
And it gives me an excuse to use my forgeworld wight king BSB :skull:

 

[Bravo_10]

With or without the bsb if a chaos warrior brick made that charge and expected to win the attrition war or break them on the charge without back up I've already won.

With back up you are boned either way. And this still only makes the bsb useful with elite troop blocks, which consist of just grave guard basically.

Heh. Boned. :skull:

And I understand what you're saying, if you're not planning on taking any elite troops (like doing all of your killing work with Vargheists or cheap troops featuring tooled out combat lords), it's probably not going to be as worth it. But still, I think that 25 points is well worth its ability to swing close battles in your favor. And for the popular Black Knight character bus strategy, wouldn't it be worth having a BSB to mitigate damage if something flanks you, or if your characters biff their rolls and don't do enough damage? Again, with perfect play, you won't have to worry about it, but I feel like it would at least help to cover some mistakes.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

I am of the firm belief that a Night Shroud carrier is a must-have in any list with a Vampire Lord (i.e. most VC lists), and a wight king is the best candidate for carrying one.

Thus the question of whether I bring a BSB comes down to whether I shell out the 25 points to upgrade that WK into one. And honestly...I rarely do.

There are just plain too many things I'd rather be spending the points on. 25 points is the better part of a spirit host or unit of fellbats. It's champions on my two vargheist units. It's most of a wizard level, or a Book of Arkhan or Dispel Scroll. Whenever I add the BSB upgrade I always find myself removing it 2 or 3 renditions of the list later to make room for something more important.

I'm not saying it isn't useful. -1 crumble, rerolls on swift reforms, and combat reforms amidst defeat, frenzy checks, casket checks, restrain pursuit checks, charge redirects... all things that could potentially lose you a game. However I'd rather spend those points on something that will DEFINITELY contribute, rather than something that will contribute in one of three games.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Heh. Boned. :skull:

And I understand what you're saying, if you're not planning on taking any elite troops (like doing all of your killing work with Vargheists or cheap troops featuring tooled out combat lords), it's probably not going to be as worth it. But still, I think that 25 points is well worth its ability to swing close battles in your favor. And for the popular Black Knight character bus strategy, wouldn't it be worth having a BSB to mitigate damage if something flanks you, or if your characters biff their rolls and don't do enough damage? Again, with perfect play, you won't have to worry about it, but I feel like it would at least help to cover some mistakes.

A flank hit to your black knight bus only ends in a loss. Any time that has happened I'd have needed the bsb to negate at least 4+ cr in order to not die.

If my characters whiff then I would still only barely lose combat and if I did lose by a lot it's because they targeted and killed my bsb anyway.

It's not that I don't see the merits, I just don't like paying the same points as everyone else for a much smaller benefit.

 

[Bravo_10]

I am of the firm belief that a Night Shroud carrier is a must-have in any list with a Vampire Lord (i.e. most VC lists), and a wight king is the best candidate for carrying one.

Thus the question of whether I bring a BSB comes down to whether I shell out the 25 points to upgrade that WK into one. And honestly...I rarely do.

There are just plain too many things I'd rather be spending the points on. 25 points is the better part of a spirit host or unit of fellbats. It's champions on my two vargheist units. It's most of a wizard level, or a Book of Arkhan or Dispel Scroll. Whenever I add the BSB upgrade I always find myself removing it 2 or 3 renditions of the list later to make room for something more important.

I'm not saying it isn't useful. -1 crumble, rerolls on swift reforms, and combat reforms amidst defeat, frenzy checks, casket checks, restrain pursuit checks, charge redirects... all things that could potentially lose you a game. However I'd rather spend those points on something that will DEFINITELY contribute, rather than something that will contribute in one of three games.

Great points all around, I'd say. And I think for a lot of lists, there are a bunch of things I'd rather spend points on than a BSB. In my armies specifically though, where I bring a big block of Grave Guard every time, having a Wight BSB in there is always going to put in a decent amount of work. Plus I don't own any Fellbats or Vargheists, so those troops aren't really an option (at least until I hit the hobby shop again).

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Great points all around, I'd say. And I think for a lot of lists, there are a bunch of things I'd rather spend points on than a BSB. In my armies specifically though, where I bring a big block of Grave Guard every time, having a Wight BSB in there is always going to put in a decent amount of work. Plus I don't own any Fellbats or Vargheists, so those troops aren't really an option (at least until I hit the hobby shop again).

Fair enough. That's always a consideration too.

Basically, there are a lot of things that are "nice" to have which, in a perfect world, would end up on all my units. My Vampire Lords would both get Beguile. My WK has dragonbane gem and ironcurse icon, and is my BSB. There are champions on both my vargheist units, and I have two spirit hosts and a unit of fellbats. All of my skeleton bricks have FC, and one has the flaming standard.


But when I am trying to squeeze under a point limit things start to go. VLs lose beguile first and foremost. Then WK loses BSB. Then a spirit host goes, followed by the fell bats. The last host and champions are a toss up, as I'll drop the champions if it saves me a SH but am loathe to lose them for any other reason. Ironcurse icon is next, and DBG last. I'll even take away his shield, since he has a GW anyways.

That's basically the thinking that got me to my last list. I took all the pieces that were my "must haves," then shaved everything else until it fit at 2,500. Which it JUST did. I'll probably miss a lot of them next weekend, but I'm not sure which ones it will be yet.

...thinking I might shave the black knights down to 10+characters, but we'll see. 11 is feeling pretty skimpy at the moment.

EDIT: not to change the topic...this is just what's going through my head right now and it was sort of on-point. There are extras that are "nice to have" and things that are "must have" for any given build, and I feel like the BSB trends more to the former than to the latter. Maybe in a GG list with CHs I could see that -1 to crumble being a big deal. But otherwise...meh. I'd rather use them elsewhere.

 

[Alabaster427]

I generally use a vamp, but I've use a WK for smaller games. The best BSB I ever had was a vamp on a Coven Throne and gave the vamp AoDM and Cursed Book. I made sure that he was always in range for IP and the thing was damn near indestructible. It took on horded DE unit on the flank and won 2 out of three rounds. The only round it lost was when there was nobody left to challenge in the unit, but it still survived. I ended up causing the enemy unit to flee and ran it down. It died in the 5th turn to Doom Riders in the magic phase, but it definitely caused more damage than I took for losing it. I also used a similar build against dwarves and wrecked them outright. Double doom and darkness with AoDM and they basically destroyed themselves (multiple units in separate turns). I haven't taken this build since 50% lords and heroes, but I have been considering it again.

 

[The Sun King]

A BSB in itself will often cost around 150 points... add the 100 vps the enemy gets for killing the bsb and you are handing him 250 points. Not worth it in my book.

 

[najo]

I think the play style of the army dictates the inclusion of the BSB. I find myself with multiple units within 12" of it and making swift reforms and in ending up in multiple combats that last across turns tends to happen with footslogging armies. Those two-three combats, fighting attrition and maybe losing the first or two rounds means that the BSB prevents wounds, which has meant the difference of drawing out a fight long enough for it to swing back.

Armies that don't play the attrition game or they have very direct tactics like the blakc knight bus are going to get little return from the bsb.

With that said, I'm about making every point count and will actually field a vampire with level 2 magic and red fury or quick blood and then gear him for the meta and make sure to put charmed shield on him. Then I throw a BSB on top. That vampire should have died so many times, but I keep him safe and know how to position him. He gets those S5 attacks in, adds +1 to CR reduced crumble in his unit by 2 and gives me control over the spells my level 4 gets. Plus in a pinch he can throw out a Vampire Lore spell and heal himself or someone else nearby.

I also play with Morghasts, and the BSB stacks well with them.

 

[Seneschal]

In a cav bus, sure, WK BSB. In my experimental Morghast armies, I'd also take one. Otherwise, the points are going elsewhere.

 

[Adam_Barrow]

A BSB in itself will often cost around 150 points... add the 100 vps the enemy gets for killing the bsb and you are handing him 250 points. Not worth it in my book.

That pretty much sums my thoughts on it up too. The need to invest in MR against Death Snipes keeps them from being tanky enough in combat. He'll die in one of the two Phases and boom, suddenly I'm down a lot of points.

 

[GhoulKing505]

Wight king BSB for sure. He is really tanky so stays alive for most games. I'll arm him with a great weapon and armour of silvered steel if I'm running the skeleton bus or I'll give him a shield with the Razor Standard and put him in my horde of ghouls (haven't used this latter tactic in a while). I rarely leave home without my wight king BSB.

 

[Neforon]

Not completely on topic maybe, but a when the army book Says a bsb Cant have magic items, does that only refer to weapons, since you're all kitting him out?

More on topic: whener I took a bsb it was a wight King. Pirmarily cos they were more tough without the upgrades I thought I coulldnt have, but also cos a vamp carrying a bsb Just seems odd in my book. Haughty vampires carrying a standard of another vampire.. Weird. Then again, if they re loyal followers like some of Neferatas handmaidens, then why not eh?

 

[Bravo_10]

Not completely on topic maybe, but a when the army book Says a bsb Cant have magic items, does that only refer to weapons, since you're all kitting him out?

More on topic: whener I took a bsb it was a wight King. Pirmarily cos they were more tough without the upgrades I thought I coulldnt have, but also cos a vamp carrying a bsb Just seems odd in my book. Haughty vampires carrying a standard of another vampire.. Weird. Then again, if they re loyal followers like some of Neferatas handmaidens, then why not eh?

The BSB can have magic equipment, so long as he isn't carrying a magic banner. Before the current book came out, I had this amazing assassin BSB build that I used to roll with where I gave a WK the Other Trickster's Shard, Dragonhelm, and this weapon that doesn't exist anymore called the Sword of Kings. The key here is that the Sword of Kings let him score KB's on 5+, and the Other Trickster's Shard made the target of said KB reroll his ward save against it. It was an amazing slap to the face against people who tried to challenge my BSB and wipe him out quickly.

And really, I haven't liked my Wight BSB nearly as much since that build stopped being a thing. From a fluff perspective though, I definitely agree with you, having an old undead king called into service by the Vampire Count just sounds so much cooler than a vampiric cousin or something toting the battle standard around.

 

[Asmodeus]

BSB is situational. If you dont need that Ld rerolls - you can skip it. If you need cause you very often do redirections, swift reforms and you often restraining from pursuit - BSB is good to have. -1 for crumbling, and +1 for CR is not bad for 25pts - can pay off in infantry army to make losses less painfull, and cavalry one in securing your maneuvers.
Its cost are not very high - only 25pts to either vampire or wight king. Problem here, is that some players dont use vampires and wight kings at all in their armies - that makes situation mentioned by Sun King. As you must buy hero, add 25pts for BSB, and kit him to survive the battle - sometimes it is not worthy.