Undead combat Reforms

[lonit]

If we loose combat, we are allowed to reform using our unmodified ld.
Are we allowed to use Inspiring Presence? Haven't found any mention of this in the BRB so i figure we can't use it but maybe i'm missing something.

 

[Aedin]

Yes..

 

[Kappu]

how we can use inspired presence if it it is unmodified lds?

 

[Nagashizzar]

Yes..

the BRB FAQ:

"your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise."

 

[The Sun King]

To put it short: Unmodified ld doesn't really exist anymore. I expect they will remedy this in 9th ed.

 

[Aedin]

To put it short: Unmodified ld doesn't really exist anymore. I expect they will remedy this in 9th ed.

Pretty much this right here.

There are a lot of things FAQ'd out of existence and unmodified LD how it applies to IP is one of them.

 

[lonit]

To put it short: Unmodified ld doesn't really exist anymore. I expect they will remedy this in 9th ed.

Pretty much this right here.

There are a lot of things FAQ'd out of existence and unmodified LD how it applies to IP is one of them.

So... can we use the IP after defeat?

 

[Aedin]

yes...

 

[lonit]

yes...

SO what about this FAQ?

"your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise."

It states we can't use IP.

 

[The Sun King]

I'm at work right now(so I cannot look it up), but there is(AFAIK) an errata or faq that contradicts the one above, making everything a mess(to put it mildly).

 

[Aedin]

Lets see if we can iron out all the contradictions for this..

BRB p.55 Note that this leadership test is subject to any modifiers from having lost the fight, just like a break test. If your unit is steadfast ( or has the Unbreakable special rule - see page 78) the test is taken on the units unmodified leadership.

BRB p.107 Providing that the General is not fleeing, all friendly units within 12" may use his leadership instead of their own.

Now in your first post i did not take note you said we and by "we" im going to be now assuming you mean vampire units that are Unbreakable. If this is the case then no you do not get inspiring presence. However, you never did specifically say you were unbreakable and or steadfast.

But let me riddle you this.

Lets say an unit of ORCs losses combat by 1 point and they have a leadership of 7. (they are neither steadfast nor unbreakable)
Now the general has a leadership of 10 and is within 12" of the ORCs they now get to test on a modified 9 with the use of IP. (Their roll is an 8 - they successfully combat reform)

Now lets tweek the scenario.

Lets say an unit of ORCs losses combat by 1 point and they have a leadership of 7. (they are steadfast)
Now they must test on a supposed unmodified leadership of 7. (Their roll is an 8 - they do not successfully combat reform)

Now tell me this makes sense :lol:

Lets just say if my opponent uses his generals IP I am not going to call him out on it.

Now I think some players will argue that since IP has been FAQ'd to include characters in units when using spells like Okkam's Mindrazor and Spirit Leech that the IP can affect the character and the character effects the unit and therefore IP will work. However, this would not be me

So there it is in a nutshell - you finally got me to say more than two sentences

 

[Kappu]

Does the book say that You use unmodified leadership against breaktest when losing combat?
I think no. (really not sure, if it does I admit, I'm wrong)

Does book say that you use unmodified leadership against combatreform after losing combat for unbreakable units?
Yes it does.

So there's a difference.

 

[Aedin]

Does the book say that You use unmodified leadership against breaktest when losing combat?
I think no.

If your steadfast, yes you do

 

[Demian]

Actually, there is an Amendment that changes the lines a little bit like this:

"...Steadfast Units never suffer penalties to their Ld when making a Break test..." this text is to replace the "use their unmodified Ld when..."

If further proof is required, I'll dig it up later, since I'm at work here, haha.

 

[Aedin]

Actually, there is an Amendment that changes the lines a little bit like this:

"...Steadfast Units never suffer penalties to their Ld when making a Break test..." this text is to replace the "use their unmodified Ld when..."

If further proof is required, I'll dig it up later, since I'm at work here, haha.

The only reference i found in the FAQ is...

BRB p.54 If a defeated unit has more ranks than it's enemy, it takes a Break test on its unmodified Leadership.

Changed to..

BRB p. 54 If a defeated unit has more ranks than its enemy, it takes a Break test without applying the difference in combat result scores.

So this does seem to imply that the test is not taken on your unmodified leadership. The 4th paragraph additionally was changed to just simply read:

Steadfast units don't apply the difference in combat result scores to break tests.

Ya I got to agree this is a big improvement from the previous wording which confused unmodified leadership even more and additionally removes unmodified leadership from the break test requirement.

It used to say...

Steadfast units always take break tests on their unmodified leadership (or the General's unmodified Leadership if the testing unit is in range of his Inspiring Presence special rule).

which defiantly conflicts with...

"your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise."

Guess I never noticed they cleared this up. thanks for pointing it out Demian.

 

[Worloch]

Yes, that FAQ about unmodified Ld has to be one of the most ill thought out rulings to come out of GW, but I don't believe we need to hinge this query on that piece alone.

Unfortunately, GW is not very thorough in their FAQ, but if your reference it (GW WHFB FAQ) for Pg 54 (Break Tests, Steadfast) and pg 60 (Breaks Tests, Steadfast) you will see that GW changed the wording from "Unmodified Leadership" to "don't apply the difference in combat result scores". They should have also changed it on pg 55 for reforming from defeat, but hey, what can we do?

If we can simply extend the changes listed to the one place they obviously missed, unmodified Ld doesn't enter the picture, so we can avoid entirely the ridiculous FAQ on that, and simply use IP as normal.


For reference, the conflicting FAQ's on Unmodified Ld are:

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on
your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership?
(p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership
characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any
characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from
Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can
be used unless specifically stated otherwise.

and

Q: Do units benefit from their General’s Inspiring Presence for the
purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or
Okkam’s Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes.

As we all know that Spirit Leech specifies Unmodified Leadership, there you have it.

 

[The Sun King]

Worloch said it

 

[eggsPR]

I have a friend who counters this argument... please see below.

Let's see:
OUT OF BRB:
BRB p.55 Note that this leadership test is subject to any modifiers from having lost the fight, just like a break test. If your unit is steadfast (or has the Unbreakable special rule - see page 78) the test is taken on the units unmodified leadership.

GW ERRATA:
BRB p.54 If a defeated unit has more ranks than it's enemy, it takes a Break test on its unmodified Leadership.
Changed to..
BRB p. 54 If a defeated unit has more ranks than its enemy, it takes a Break test without applying the difference in combat result scores.
THIS IS FOR BREAK TEST ONLY (p54). IT DOES NOT AFFECT COMBAT REFORMS (p55)

Q: When taking a Leadership test, sometimes you have to take it on your unmodified Leadership. What is your unmodified Leadership? (p10)
A: Your unmodified Leadership is the highest Leadership characteristic in the unit. So the Leadership from any characters in the unit itself (but not from outside the unit, from Inspiring Presence for example) with a higher Leadership can be used unless specifically stated otherwise.
THIS IS WHAT U-LD IS. NO INSPIRING PRESENCE FOR U-LD UNLESS STATED.

Q: Do units benefit from their General’s Inspiring Presence for the purposes of spells that use Leadership, such as Spirit Leech or Okkam’s Mindrazor? (p107)
A: Yes.
THIS IS AN SPECIFIC ALLOWANCE TO USE U-LD+IP, FOR SPELLS ONLY. DOESN'T WORK FOR COMBAT REFORM

CONCLUSION: Combat Reform is done on U-Ld if you're Steadfast or Umbreakable. U-Ld doesn't allow IP, unless specifically stated. Combat Reform doesn't specifically state that you can use IP, so you can't.

Ok, so what's the deal? Can flank charged Crypt Horrors combat reform to face their enemy at Ld 10 with the Vampire Lord within 12" using IP, or must it try using Ld 5? The above-quoted seems to think the latter.

Thanks

 

[Count Lupei]

I would have to agree, combat reform= highest ld in unit, period. No ip.

 

[RarerMonsters]

GW has the very poor habit of releasing "FAQs" that are actually Errata.

Eggs is quite correct in all his readings. The Spirit Leech change is a specific aspect of their FAQ/Errata to the spell and NOT a characteristic of U-LD in general.

 

[eggsPR]

Can someone transfer this thread into Laws of the Night?

It's basically one giant rules query that affects how every VC player I've ever seen reform, including myself

 

[Vipoid]

I thought I understood combat reforms... then I read this thread.

Now all I understand is that my brain appears to have melted. :ghost:

 

[Skittelz1981]

Lololololololol, all those times that the darkelvish and ogrish bastards combatreformed on me using IP-ld.... Well, things have changed




I do agree for the spells tho, imagine you could cast that signature on unmodified ld.... that would be a way too cheap spell with far too much potential at one-shotting.

 

[Mox]

I would have to agree, combat reform= highest ld in unit, period. No ip.

This is how our group plays.
the unit uses its highest LD. No outside influence.
I believe that this is what GW means to say, with too many words.