Undead Legion vs Empire and Ascended Karl Franz

[najo]

OK, so I have a game coming up against Empire with Ascended Karl Franz in the mix. I like advice on best tactics and units to use and what to watch out for. Likely playing 2500 points. I'm not sure of the scenario yet. My opponent want's to randomize it out of the BRB.

So let me hear your tips my fellow Vampires!

 

[Demian]

Don't! Just run away! D: chaff them all the way into a Chaos legions army and enjoy!


Nah, well Empire is already difficult with all the shooting. Now that they have an über-killy lord as well makes it much more difficult.

That being said, there are a couple of things you can try to take on Karl Franz:

1. Ghoul King with +3 attacks, pot of strength, OTS, Red Fury, Aura of Dark Majesty+Beguile OR Flight + Dreadknight (to catch on Karl and have better WS):

Just a KFA removal. 8 Str 8 attacks should suffice to pass through his ward, plus red fury to finish the job. Pray he doesn't save all and he should be dead.

2. If playing with End Times spells... use Lore of Heavens extensively. Comet on the War machines, Iceshard Blizzard on Karl to have him fail some hits, Curse of the Midnight Wind on armored knights, thunderbolts for chaff/archers. Don't know here, would have to test it!

3. 2 Squads of 3-5 Vargheists to take care of all the shooting you'll probably face, and 2-3 Necros with different scrolls to maim his casting.

4. Casket on those war machines is also nice, despite the fact that they'll get that 18'' Ld bubble, Karl can't be everywhere! (or is it 24 with him? don't remember)

5. Terrorgheists are gonna get blown up... you could try and 1st turn scream karl to death, but I think you're better off with a Ghoul King slayer against him.

That's all I have D:

 

[LordTobiothan]

You could match giant lord to giant lord and take nagash. Stick him in worthless summoned units all game while you try to scream him to death.

I suppose even just a regular caster with lore of undeath might work if your confident you can keep the units flowing.

 

[Pirate Robot Ninja of Death]

Best way to deal with KFA is two blender lords. First one tries to kill him, probably fails, and gets stomped. Second one finishes the job.

As for the rest...vargheists. Nothing wrecks empire like vargheists. Also spirit hosts into the steam tank all day every day.

 

[najo]

What about running crypt horrors or morghasts as cannon shields and bring tbats and vargiests to clean up?

 

[countwuzzy]

You have no armor save vs KFA. So why not bring a vampire lord on zombie dragon(bring meat shields also) give VL glittering scales. That way KFA is hitting on 6s which almost makes ghal maraz worthless. Have TOP for insurance.

 

[najo]

That's a good idea

 

[GhoulKing505]

What's his strength like? You could try a zombie dragon lord with nightshroud. I'm just throwing that out there. I have no idea what kfa stats look like. I just know he's way more powerful than he once was.

 

[countwuzzy]

KFA is strength 4. So 6 to hit 5 to wound. If you have ZD and Glitering scales. He only has 4 attacks. If he does get a wound through your 4+ ward. I think ghal maraz has d3 wounds... Not sure though.

 

[TheTrans]

KFA auto wounds mate, d3+1 multiple wounds..with like 10 attacks....

 

[countwuzzy]

Of course he auto wounds, silly me. I was unaware he has 10 attacks. Suck. Someone can run math hammer. But with 3d +1 wounds. Even with the -2 to hit. He has a chance to punch through. Suck.

 

[najo]

Not good. So how would you really deal with him?

 

[Kappu]

about 700 poisoned arrows?

 

[GhoulKing505]

What's his defense like? I know he's only like T4 or something right? How many wounds and what types of save does he have? Could you possibly kill him before he has a chance to hit back?

 

[LordTobiothan]

Trying to kill franz is just a waste of points and resources. Any way you can find to kill him probably could have also killed the rest of his army.

Your time is better spent dropping an un - grind - able lump of flesh in front of him and moving on.

 

[Henning]

best way to deal with KFA?

I reckon 2 units of 10 direwolves with a champ in each. Charge and challenge, his turn challenge with remaining champ. Your turn Invocation and repeat! Will cost you 180 points.

 

[Archamedius]

best way to deal with KFA?

I reckon 2 units of 10 direwolves with a champ in each. Charge and challenge, his turn challenge with remaining champ. Your turn Invocation and repeat! Will cost you 180 points.

^ This.

You have to accept without cannons, we cannot deal with him in any meaningful fashion. - With one caveat.

If you are doing end times magic, There is another way. Go Nagash on a fulcrum. The Fulcrum gives you a 3++ and makes you immune to multiple wounds. You should be able to bait Franz into fighting Nagash on the Fulcrum. Your ward save is better, and you remove his multiple wounds rule. He is WS 7 (same as Nagash) and Toughness 5 so Nagash wounds on a 2+. Math Hammer wise, in this situation Franz on average causes 1.67 wounds a round. So if you can manage to get 3 Lore of Vampires spells or a good casting of Breath of darkness off plus some filler LoV you can heal the damage he does each casting phase. He shouldn't be able to ruin you before your next magic phase. Even if he manages to hit all 10 times (extremely lucky) you still have to fail 7 3+ ward saves to die in a single round. So thats a really bad round from you and a really awesome round from him.

Nagash in return causes 1.25 wounds per turn (1.875 if you can manage a VDM casting) so you won't be killing him any time soon, but Nagash is an effective tank at this point, and he can continue to cast all his summoning spells while in combat, so hes still doing what you want him to do while Franz is effectively removed from the game.

Failing the desire to run this option (and the availability of end times magic), I agree, either a couple blocks of zombies or two units of dire wolves with champions to alternate challenging out and then just invocation them back on your next casting phase.

 

[Demian]

I like the Fulcrum idea!! had not considered it!

the Wolves thing is a nice backup plan, but by no means I'd rely on it, because of the massive shooting the Empire has, yet both Nagash and Wolves seems ok, specially with the -2 to crumble from our Lord!

Also, you can go and combo everything: Nagash + Wolves + Vargheists + maybe a Tbat because he's not gonna shoot at him while Nagash towers above. Actually, use Nagash as a meatshield for Tbats! (or the other way around if he hasn't summoned a fulcrum yet)

then drown him in summoned units all day long. Beware his newfound "Thor" abilities, since thunderbolts are at hand

EDIT: Yay! now I'm a Necromancer time to spam IoN and carry a Dispel scroll everywhere!

 

[najo]

I'm liking this. How about throwing a couple skull catapults in there too?

 

[Archamedius]

I'm liking this. How about throwing a couple skull catapults in there too?

which part are you liking? Catapults in my mind are unreliable, but he is bound to have a horde or two of halberdiers and I would imagine the catapults will do wonders on thinning those down.

 

[Sception]

So the suggestions so far seem to be:

Nagash on Fulcrum assuming ETMagic (or SoM, if SoM fulcrums make casters immune to multiwounds, cannot remember). Certainly the most epic option, but that would involve playing ETM, which is... eeyrghsshsgh

Doom & Darkness plus Tbats/casket/banshees, with or without Nagash

TK shooting, with multiple catapults plus Khalida and a huge block of archers. I kind of question this as well, though, since franz is only on a chariot base, and not the huge base of our dragons/tgs, making stone throwers a rather unreliable option.

multiple chaff units with champs plus invocation (an excellent option to tack onto other methods as a failsafe, since chaff is cheap and you want to take some anyway)


IMO, the best option though is not to fight him at all. Call a truce to team up against chaos instead. All us good guys should be working together! After all, isn't one of the mortarchs an elector count these days? Nagash is practically an Imperial citizen at this point,

 

[Steapa]

Horde of skeletons and Ohkhams mind razor. Let him get his 10 attacks and d3 wounds.....40 str 10 / 8 or whatever ldrship attacks coming back all of the sudden.

 

[Sception]

Franz is on a chariot base, so you're talking about 16 attacks, not 40. Hitting on 5s, that's only like, what, 5, 6 hits? 4, 5 wounds? only 2 or thee after saves? I mean, with enough invocation support on top you'll wear him down, but that's only if the rest of his army doesn't provide any support.