Undead Legions sweet combos.

[John Rainbow]

I don't disagree with you that the combined profiles provide the opportunity to really create negative play experiences (imagine a 1+/3++ re-rollable chaos lord on a chaos dragon...) but I believe cannons and stone throwers (less so) are collectively the single reason you never see monsters in competitive play, and rarely outside that. Combined profiles might take it a touch the other direction, but its surely better than what we have today.

Very true and I don't disagree with you either. Cannons are overpowered in the current meta, especially Iron Blasters and Skull Cannon varieties and you are right in thinking that they have basically made monsters non-viable in tournament play. I actually really like the combined profile idea in some ways. It tightens up a huge number of rules surrounding ridden monsters such as characteristic tests, etc that always caused problems in the past. It does however I think go too far the other way in terms of how resilient these models now become. I think the Mortarchs, etc are actually decent, I'm more worried about models like Karl Franz or the potential Chaos 1+/3++ RR options that are nigh invincible.

 

[WaitWut]

I was reading through a tomb king's forum and one of their tips was using purple sun to kill some of your own skellies (zombies would probs be better) to give yourself a bunch of extra power dice. Then you could just IoN the zomies or skellies back.

 

[LordTobiothan]

I was reading through a tomb king's forum and one of their tips was using purple sun to kill some of your own skellies (zombies would probs be better) to give yourself a bunch of extra power dice. Then you could just IoN the zomies or skellies back.

Couldn't you do this in a non ul army?

 

[Seneschal]

That's an old tactic we've been using since eighth came out. It's fun and a bit hilarious.

 

[PureSphinx]

Couldn't you do this in a non ul army?

Theoretically, however the Lore of Nehekara is not focused on healing units like an Invocation or two is. Lore of Vampires and zombie hordes are a must if you want any hope of raising back the casualties you caused on top of the casualties caused by whatever the zombies are tarpitting.

 

[WaitWut]

I haven't played a high enough point game to pull it off yet, but I can't wait to. I just thought it would work best in an UL army because of IoN and the Nekhara attribute would both be available.

 

[LordTobiothan]

Theoretically, however the Lore of Nehekara is not focused on healing units like an Invocation or two is. Lore of Vampires and zombie hordes are a must if you want any hope of raising back the casualties you caused on top of the casualties caused by whatever the zombies are tarpitting.

That makes it a vc tactic that is now available to tomb kings. Not really a benefit of mixing the two armies.

 

[PureSphinx]

That makes it a vc tactic that is now available to tomb kings. Not really a benefit of mixing the two armies.

Agreed. I was only stating the optimal circumstances, not asserting that it was necessarily a new Undead Legions combo.

 

[Sception]

Very true and I don't disagree with you either. Cannons are overpowered in the current meta, especially Iron Blasters and Skull Cannon varieties and you are right in thinking that they have basically made monsters non-viable in tournament play. I actually really like the combined profile idea in some ways. It tightens up a huge number of rules surrounding ridden monsters such as characteristic tests, etc that always caused problems in the past. It does however I think go too far the other way in terms of how resilient these models now become. I think the Mortarchs, etc are actually decent, I'm more worried about models like Karl Franz or the potential Chaos 1+/3++ RR options that are nigh invincible.

An interesting solution to the 1+/4++ monster problem of combined profiles would be to give mounted monsters the WORSE armor save between the mount and the character, and then give every monster a scale skin / tough hide save that would function as a cap on the rider's armor save.

Ie, dragons might cap armor at 4+ or 3+; chimeras and the like at 5+ or 4+, etc. Ward saves would still take the better, to curtail the cannon issue, but you wouldn't have 1+ armor saves on top of good ward saves, so massed archery could still pose a threat.

 

[John Rainbow]

I see what you're saying but I don't think massed archery should be a threat to things like dragons, etc. I'm not sure what the solution is though...

 

[Archamedius]

I see what you're saying but I don't think massed archery should be a threat to things like dragons, etc. I'm not sure what the solution is though...

I think the problem lies in removing cannons as a threat to monsters. IMO cannons *should* be a threat to monsters. The problem lies in the fact that it is so cheap and cannons are so reliable, that they become simple, inexpensive hard counters to the point that it becomes worthless to take monsters at all. The concept that a cannon is a counter to monsters is fine, they just need to not be such a cost effective hard counter.

In my mind what needs to happen is one of several possible options, all of which I think are acceptable and would allow for more play with monsters:

1) If cannons are to continue to be hard counters for monsters, they should be priced in the same range as monsters are (~ 200+ points) so that it's more of an even trade

2) reduce the effectiveness of cannons against things other than monsters/chariots (allow an initiative test to avoid cannon ball shots for infantry, or perhaps a ld test, or something like that; remove grapeshot, etc.) so that it becomes more of a gamble to take a cannon. If you take 3 cannons and your opponent doesn't show up with any monsters, those cannons should be wasted points. Right now cannons are cheap enough and versatile enough that even if no monsters/chariots/multi-wound models are present (the things cannons excel the most against) they can still churn out considerable damage with little in the way of mitigation.

3) reduce the accuracy of cannons. The artillery die mechanic is too easy to predict. Perhaps add a ballistic skill test before the shot, then modify the artillery die based on the success or failure of the ballistic skill test. (Perhaps roll 2 or 3 artillery die on a BS failure[include range penalties, cover, etc.] and allow the opponent to choose the result) Bolt throwers are a good example here. Due largely to the BS requirement of bolt throwers, they can do lots of damage to monsters, but are by no means as reliable as cannons. Bringing cannons more in line with bolt throwers could swing the balance around a bit more. (Maybe make the cannons STR 6 ignores armor, multi-wounds d3+1, thus reducing their instant kill potential)

4) there are probably others more viable than the ones I have suggested here...


My point is, making cannons not countering monsters doesn't fix anything, it just switches from having lots of artillery on the board in a fantasy game to lots of monsters on the board (which can also be a bad thing). Rather the degree to which artillery make monsters and such a non factor is what needs to be reduced.

 

[John Rainbow]

I think the main change needs to be in the mechanics of how cannons work. Personally I favour an idea I've discussed before - the idea of scattering the initial bounce of the cannonball to make them less of a laser cannon.

I actually think the idea of combined profile monsters is a great one, I just also dislike that this creates some uber monsters ala karl Franz Ascendant. On the plus side it tightens up a lot of rules and speeds up the game. These are a big plus in my mind. So the question then becomes how to resolve the potential for seeing a 10W T7 monster having a 1+/4++, possibly with rerolls. And doing so in a manner that doesn't add additional complexity to the game. This is a more difficult problem to solve I fear.

Let me think on it and get back to you.

 

[Sception]

I see what you're saying but I don't think massed archery should be a threat to things like dragons, etc. I'm not sure what the solution is though...

I absolutely think it should be a threat to dragons and the like. After all, not every faction has cannons.

I just think the effectiveness of ranged options against these things needs to be reduced a bit. Combined wounds does it, but combined wounds with 1+/3++ on top goes, imo, too far in the other direction. Putting a cap on armor saves might be enough to even it out at that happy medium.

Raising the points of cannons, or reducing their accuracy (I favor scattering the initial target d6-Bs inches, then drawing a straight line from the cannon to the new point and extending that out for the cannon's impact and bounce), might also help, but I'm not sure such is needed on top of combined wounds, and certainly not on top of combined wounds with best saves.