Legion of Nagash Undead War Machines

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I think units raised in this way should only be worth 25VPs though or otherwise it could be costly to use the zombie launcher but against elites it would be a fair trade off so I suppose the player using the zed launcher would just have to be canny with his choice of targets and strength of missile.
 
That's what I was worried of. The aforementioned spell creates armies that are raised straight into combat.

Perhaps we just cut out that bit, the rest of the rules work pretty well.
 
So it still creates zombies but not into combat then.
I'd suggest perhaps a limit on number of them allowed or someone could summon bunches of zombies to get in the way of the enemy.
Also, the zombies have to be summoned to the way the zed launcher was firing from. Otherwise they could end up being used as march blockers and other such stuff and people would get really annoyed with it.
Just my two cents.
 
Order of the Blood Dragon said:
Also, the zombies have to be summoned to the way the zed launcher was firing from. Otherwise they could end up being used as march blockers and other such stuff and people would get really annoyed with it.

Well, I think that that wouldbe part of the point. The weapon as it is is not going to kill many enemies, and if we can make enemies slow down by March Blocking them it gives the model a purpose in the army.

Here's my two zombies:
I think that each zombie we choose to fire from the catapult should end up 1" away from the target unit, facing the same way the catapult is (along with any zombies that are risen from the shot) and as close to the catapult as possible without being more than 1" away from the enemy (so basically exactly one inch from the target unit). The unit cannot have Raise Dead or similar spell to increase it's numbers and costs 25 VP. Otherwise I could see it being too powerful.
 
That sounds good, I thought people would have spammed raise to completely tarpit any targets but that way it's just to slow them down. Estoy de favor con eso (I like it) as it makes them have a use without being a free raise dead + vanhels.
 
Disciple of Nagash said:
*Looks at Vekarin* ....and we're suppose to take him seriously as an enemy. Pah!

I do like the idea of chariots, but we don't want to intrude too much on TK.

Look at this:

Zombie Launcher--------------------------------150 pts.(Special Choice)
Launcher M 4/WS -/BS 2/S -/T 7/W 3/I -/A -/Ld 2
Nagashi M 4/WS 3/BS 3/S 3/T 3/W 1/I 4/A 1/Ld 8

Unit Size: 1
Crew: 3 Nagashi
Weapons and Armor: The Nagashi crew have two hand weapons and heavy armor.

Special Rules:

Animated Device-The war machine does not suffer the effects of crew loss, as long as there is at leats least one
crew member remaining the Zombie Launcher may move and fire normally. If all the crew are slain then the war machine may move or fire, but not both, during a turn.

Mould Corpses-If there is a zombie unit and a spellcaster within 6” inches, one zombie may be molded onto the war machine. Each zombie sacrificed this way restores one wound to the Zombie Launcher up to its full complement of wounds.

Undead Ammunition- The Zombie Launcher fires as a stone thrower, causing a strength 3 hit to enemies under the hole of the blast template and a strength 1 hit to those under the template but not under the central hole of the template. In addition the Zombie Launcher can be loaded with ammunition in the form of zombies, if there is a zombie unit within 6" a maximum of four zombies can be loaded. Each zombie confers +1 strength to the shot, the first zombie confers strength 2 (4 under the central hole_, the second zombie strength 3 (6 under the central hole), etc, up to a maximum of strength 4 (8 under the central hole). Any casualties inflicted by the Zombie Launcher by shooting at an enemy unit, are raised as new zombie models on a roll of a 4+ (roll separately for each casualty), and placed 1" away from the respective unit on the side facing the Zombie Launcher (if more than one side faces the Zombie Launcher then nominate one of the two sides and roll a die, on a 4+ the zombies are raised on the selected side otherwise the zombies are raised on the other side) to the front of the respective unit which suffered the casualties counting as engaged in combat. The zombies count as having charged for the purposes of deciding who strikes first in combat. The newly raised unit counts as being worth 25V.

I still like it, the only thing I am thinking is that we have a spell that resurrects those it kills as zombies. Would two such things in one army be OP, or do we think it would be ok?

How's that? I tried to incorporate all of the suggestions given (as I agreed with most of them).
 
So we currently have:


Zombie Launcher--------------------------------150 pts.(Special Choice)
Launcher M 4/WS -/BS 2/S -/T 7/W 3/I -/A -/Ld 2
Nagashi M 4/WS 3/BS 3/S 3/T 3/W 1/I 4/A 1/Ld 8

Unit Size: 1
Crew: 3 Nagashi
Weapons and Armor: The Nagashi crew have two hand weapons and heavy armor.

Special Rules:

Animated Device-The war machine does not suffer the effects of crew loss, as long as there is at least least one
crew member remaining the Zombie Launcher may move and fire normally. If all the crew are slain then the war machine may move or fire, but not both, during a turn.

Mould Corpses-If there is a zombie unit and a spellcaster within 6" inches, one zombie may be moulded onto the war machine. Each zombie sacrificed this way restores one wound to the Zombie Launcher up to its full complement of wounds.

Undead Ammunition- The Zombie Launcher fires as a stone thrower, causing a strength 3 hit to enemies under the hole of the blast template and a strength 1 hit to those under the template but not under the central hole of the template.
In addition the Zombie Launcher can be loaded with ammunition in the form of zombies, if there is a zombie unit within 6" a maximum of four zombies can be loaded. Each zombie confers +1 strength to the shot - The first zombie confers strength 2 (4 under the central hole, The second zombie strength 3 (6 under the central hole), etc, up to a maximum of strength 4 (8 under the central hole).
Any casualties inflicted by the Zombie Launcher by shooting at an enemy unit, are raised as new zombie models on a roll of a 4+ (roll separately for each casualty), and placed 1" away from the respective unit on the side facing the Zombie Launcher (if more than one side faces the Zombie Launcher then the closest side has priority, if both sides are equal nominate one of the two sides and roll a die, on a 4+ the zombies are raised on the selected side otherwise the zombies are raised on the other side).The newly raised unit counts as being worth 25V.

I like it at the moment, but it won't work as a static unit placed behind the lines. Chances are there will not be a caster in 6" and your tarpits will be at the front where they are suppose to be.

So I would suggest the following rule:

The launcher can be placed in a unit of zombies, in which case it can always use the Mould Corpses and Undead Ammunition Rule, irregardless if there is a caster within 6". For rank purposes it counts as the number of models it has displaced, but the launcher cannot fire if the zombie unit is engaged in combat.
 
I'm not so sure about Mold Corpses. The machine is already ridiculously hard to take down considering you have to do three wounds at T3 and three at T7 to get it to go away, whereas normal machines you simply have to kill the crew, and if you want to put it in a Zombie unit...
I think that if all the Nagashi are killed the Zombie Launcher itself may only fire once every other turn as if there were only one crewmen left. A War Machine may not fire if it has moved anyway, so this rule is a little unrealistic right now. Remember that also for having the Zombie Thrower join a unit of Zombies.
 
Yeah I can see where you are coming from with that. The launcher can be healed through Rituals anyway, so I don't see any issues with totally removing Mold Corpses
 
I agree with Vekarin. It's virtually undestructable now.

Also, why even count the newly raised Zombies as a new unit? Even just 25 VP, I think there is no need to give them any VP's.

Other than that, the Catapult is good as it is. Kinda weird that the Catapult can move or shoot without any crew operating it, but hey it's a fantasy world.
 
I would also say as it will probably go in a zombie unit, that we get rid of the Nagashi crewmen, and instead have zombie crewmen. It also means then they can be raised if killed, much like skellies of screaming skull catapults. I don't like mixing alive crewmen with an undead construction.
 
Vekarin the Dark Bladed said:
Awww, I liked the Nagashi crewmen, they reminded my of Screaming Skull catapults with living people. It makes sense, though...

They should be killable, in a way.

Though DoN, how you do that in a Zombie unit? How are the crew placed, or is the whole unit the crew? (like the Skaven Screaming Bell?)
 
Actually that might work MV. How about the Launcher must be placed in a unit of zombies, and they count as it's crew. You can use the above rules to increase the S etc, which use up zombies.

If the unit is killed, the launcher is removed from play.

We can have it has a special option for Zombies, rather than it's own slot? We might have to limit it though, maybe 1 per 1000pts.
 
I've updated the rules:

Zombie Launcher--------------------------------150 pts.
Limit - 1 Launcher per 1000pts

Launcher M 4/WS -/BS 2/S -/T 7/W 3/I -/A -/Ld 2


Unit Size: 2
Crew: Special - See Attachment Special Rule
Weapons and Armor: None

Special Rules:

Attachment
The Launcher is a upgrade for a zombie unit. It can be placed in the second rank (providing there is one) and still fire (count LOS from the front rank). It can still fire whilst in combat. For rank purposes it counts as the amount of zombies it has displaced.(I'm thinking the model will be the size of a cavalry base).
The entire unit is classed as the Launchers crew, however crumbling wounds cannot be passed onto the Launcher. All crumbling wounds must be taken by zombies first, if the zombie unit is fully destroyed for any reason the Launcher is automatically destroyed.
The Launcher can continue to fire at its normal rate as long as one zombie remains.

Undead Ammunition- The Zombie Launcher fires as a stone thrower, causing a strength 3 hit to enemies under the hole of the blast template and a strength 1 hit to those under the template but not under the central hole of the template.
In addition the Zombie Launcher can be loaded with ammunition in the form of zombies, the zombies are taken from the zombie unit the Launcher is placed in. Additional zombies cannot be loaded if the parent unit has 5 models or less.
Each zombie confers +1 strength to the shot - The first zombie confers strength 2 (4 under the central hole, The second zombie strength 3 (6 under the central hole), etc, up to a maximum of strength 4 (8 under the central hole).
Any casualties inflicted by the Zombie Launcher by shooting at an enemy unit, are raised as new zombie models on a roll of a 4+ (roll separately for each casualty), and placed 1" away from the respective unit on the side facing the Zombie Launcher (if more than one side faces the Zombie Launcher then the closest side has priority, if both sides are equal nominate one of the two sides and roll a die, on a 4+ the zombies are raised on the selected side otherwise the zombies are raised on the other side).The newly raised unit counts as being worth 25V.

I quite like it.
 
Looks really nice. The only thing I don't like is the whole idea of rising zombies as it wounds. Sure, it gives away 25 VP, but it can easily march block half of your opponent's army AND redirect an important infantry unit.

This aside I think that you should like "5 zombies are needed to operate it. If less than 5 models are left in the unit, it still fires normal but may not load up any zombies for Undead Ammunition" so that if it misfires and rolls 1, only the ones operating it (5 zombies) will die, because as is the whole unit would die and that's... not cool.

It can still fire whilst in combat.
This is kinda messed up, because CC always blocks LoS. The only thing close to that idea is the Slaan Mage Priest, who can do that, but 1) he cannot throw missile spells in the same CC and 2) he counts as Large Target for LoS, so he can actually see above the enemy models. In our case the launcher isn't a large target and that would be a problem.

I'd suggest that in CC it acts like Empire's Steam Tank steamgun. I would go with something along this lines:


Once in close combat, the Zombies stuff the cannon with guts, and rotten body parts and fire it against their opponent. To represent this 1st remove the zombie directly in front of the cannon (for this special attack at least 1 zombie must be sacrificed and he would be the unlucky one!) and place the flame template so that it doesn't touch any more of the zombies. Everyone it fully covers is hit and all partially you hit on 4+. Resolve the hits with S1. For this attack you can sacrifice up to the usual 5 zombies (counting the mandatory one), getting +1 S for every 2 zombies sacrificed - which makes
1 zombie = 1 S
3 zombies = 2 S
5 zombies = 3S

This attack confers a -1 penalty to the AS
 
Cheers for the feedback Vic. I do agree that you can't load zombies in if there are only 5 or less left, but I had already stated that.

Additional zombies cannot be loaded if the parent unit has 5 models or less.

I love your suggestion about firing in combat that. It is superb and makes much more sense so I'm adding that straight in which gets us:

Zombie Launcher--------------------------------150 pts.
Limit - 1 Launcher per 1000pts

Launcher M 4/WS -/BS 2/S -/T 7/W 3/I -/A -/Ld 2


Unit Size: 2
Crew: Special - See Attachment Special Rule
Weapons and Armor: None

Special Rules:

Attachment
The Launcher is a upgrade for a zombie unit. It can be placed in the second rank (providing there is one) and still fire (count LOS from the front rank). For rank purposes it counts as the amount of zombies it has displaced.(I'm thinking the model will be the size of a cavalry base).
The entire unit is classed as the Launchers crew, however crumbling wounds cannot be passed onto the Launcher. All crumbling wounds must be taken by zombies first, if the zombie unit is fully destroyed for any reason the Launcher is automatically destroyed.
The Launcher can continue to fire at its normal rate as long as one zombie remains.

Undead Ammunition
The Zombie Launcher fires as a stone thrower, causing a strength 3 hit to enemies under the hole of the blast template and a strength 1 hit to those under the template but not under the central hole of the template.

In addition the Zombie Launcher can be loaded with ammunition in the form of zombies, the zombies are taken from the zombie unit the Launcher is placed in. Additional zombies cannot be loaded if the parent unit has 5 models or less.

Each zombie confers +1 strength to the shot - The first zombie confers strength 2 (4 under the central hole, The second zombie strength 3 (6 under the central hole), etc, up to a maximum of strength 4 (8 under the central hole).

Once in close combat, the Zombies stuff the cannon with guts, and rotten body parts and fire it against their opponent. To represent this 1st remove the zombie directly in front of the cannon (for this special attack at least 1 zombie must be sacrificed and he would be the unlucky one!) and place the flame template so that it doesn't touch any more of the zombies. Everyone it fully covers is hit and all partially you hit on 4+. Resolve the hits with S1. For this attack you can sacrifice up to the usual 5 zombies (counting the mandatory one), getting +1 S for every 2 zombies sacrificed - which makes
1 zombie = 1 S
3 zombies = 2 S
5 zombies = 3S

This attack confers a -1 penalty to the AS

Any casualties inflicted by the Zombie Launcher by shooting at an enemy unit, are raised as new zombie models on a roll of a 4+ (roll separately for each casualty), and placed 1" away from the respective unit on the side facing the Zombie Launcher (if more than one side faces the Zombie Launcher then the closest side has priority, if both sides are equal nominate one of the two sides and roll a die, on a 4+ the zombies are raised on the selected side otherwise the zombies are raised on the other side).The newly raised unit counts as being worth 25V.

***********************

I haven't removed the dead enemy being risen as that was one of the key factors of this idea, it was one of the main reasons this was created and as such I wouldn't want to remove the core of the idea. However if you have an idea how to make the rule more balanced we can have a look at it.
 
How would that work? I like the idea of raising the zombies as casualties of shooting, but when its in combat it is effectively still causing wounds as a shooting (breath weapon) attack. Just nitpicking, but i suggest you include in the rules something like:

Any casualties inflicted by the Zombie Launcher by shooting at an enemy unit, are raised as new zombie models on a roll of a 4+ (roll separately for each casualty), and placed 1" away from the respective unit on the side facing the Zombie Launcher (if more than one side faces the Zombie Launcher then the closest side has priority, if both sides are equal nominate one of the two sides and roll a die, on a 4+ the zombies are raised on the selected side otherwise the zombies are raised on the other side).The newly raised unit counts as being worth 25V.
Zombie units raised in this way can only be raised as a result of shooting, the flame template attack does not raise any zombies.
 
I've been re-reading the rules, and I think the firing in close combat should be dropped altogether - too complicated. So we are left with:

Zombie Launcher--------------------------------150 pts.
Limit - 1 Launcher per 1000pts

Launcher M 4/WS -/BS 2/S -/T 7/W 3/I -/A -/Ld 2


Unit Size: 2
Crew: Special - See Attachment Special Rule
Weapons and Armor: None

Special Rules:

Attachment
The Launcher is a upgrade for a zombie unit. It can be placed in the second rank (providing there is one) and still fire (count LOS from the front rank). For rank purposes it counts as the amount of zombies it has displaced.(I'm thinking the model will be the size of a cavalry base).
The entire unit is classed as the Launchers crew, however crumbling wounds cannot be passed onto the Launcher. All crumbling wounds must be taken by zombies first, if the zombie unit is fully destroyed for any reason the Launcher is automatically destroyed.
The Launcher can continue to fire at its normal rate as long as one zombie remains.

Undead Ammunition
The Zombie Launcher fires as a stone thrower, causing a strength 3 hit to enemies under the hole of the blast template and a strength 1 hit to those under the template but not under the central hole of the template.

In addition the Zombie Launcher can be loaded with ammunition in the form of zombies, the zombies are taken from the zombie unit the Launcher is placed in. Additional zombies cannot be loaded if the parent unit has 5 models or less.

Each zombie confers +1 strength to the shot - The first zombie confers strength 2 (4 under the central hole, The second zombie strength 3 (6 under the central hole), etc, up to a maximum of strength 4 (8 under the central hole).

The launcher cannot fire once in close combat.

Any casualties inflicted by the Zombie Launcher by shooting at an enemy unit, are raised as new zombie models on a roll of a 4+ (roll separately for each casualty), and placed 1" away from the respective unit on the side facing the Zombie Launcher (if more than one side faces the Zombie Launcher then the closest side has priority, if both sides are equal nominate one of the two sides and roll a die, on a 4+ the zombies are raised on the selected side otherwise the zombies are raised on the other side).The newly raised unit counts as being worth 25V.
 

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