Unit Sizes

[Sume]

Hello. I am in the planning process of a Wood Elf based Vampire Counts army. I have decided that I want use Black knights, grave guard, ghouls, wolves, zombies, fell bats, a terrorghist or two, and spirit hosts.

I am trying to find the typical size of each of these units. I had a thought of using a ghoul horde, and grave guard in my center. With zombies, to tie down both flanks if needed, and maybe in the back if I run a necromancer or two. Then black knights to be hammers. I want to have the bats, spirit hosts, and wolves to be war machine hunters, misdirectiors, or in the case of the spirit hosts, just ethereal goodness tar pits.

Now I am still not sure about the character load out yet. I am also trying to look for themes of different armies.

I am not able to find really any threads about the various themes. I was thinking about leadership bomb, magic heavy, or just pure infantry grind fest. Not sure if these will be able to be combined well.

Thank you for the help.

 

[rothgar13]

Black Knights and Grave Guard are typically not fielded in tandem, and the main reason why is because it puts a lot of pressure on you to keep everything within the General's march bubble, and because both of them want character support.

Typical sizes for the units you mentioned are as follows:

Ghouls: 40-50 (including characters) --> The more the merrier with these guys - WS3 and T4 with no save means they die rather easily.
Grave Guard: 30-40 (including characters) --> More or less the same logic, except these guys are much better able to fend off enemies thanks to the Banner of the Barrows, their S4, and Great Weapons.
Black Knights: 10-15 (including characters) --> Usually fielded as a mounted Vampire delivery system.
Dire Wolves: 5-6 (sometimes with champion) --> Chaff units, don't spend too much on them.
Zombies: 20 --> If you want more, spam IoN.
Fell Bats: 2 --> These are chaff, run the minimum.
Spirit Hosts: 1 --> Ditto.

As for the themes, maybe you'll find this thread to be useful.

 

[kevin.hopkins7]

Units:

Zombies : 20 man, 5 wide 4 deep with a musician, perhaps standard bearer if u play blood and glory
Ghouls: 40 man horde formation with champ, if throwing a character in make it 39 or 38 w.e
Wolves: the best way to run them is 5 man, 3 in the front 2 behind also know as the "wolf dart"
Black Knights: at least 11 with a character in there, 6 wide, or if your doing a deathstar unit, make it like 15, 5 wide
Fell Bats: units of 2, cheap 32 point unit
Spirit Hosts: individual bases
Grave gaurd: horde em up 40 strong, you can try a smaller frontage for a smaller unit...

Themes/build:
This can vary alot. For competitive play, most people on this forum will recommend not going magic heavy, our army cannot reliably dominate the magic phase.
Look at other peoples lists in the "Legions of the Damned" section and see what they are doing and what have been suggested to their lists, it can help you make your own.


Hope this helps some

 

[kevin.hopkins7]

agh ninja'd!

 

[Sume]

Thank you a bunch Rothgar and kevin.hopkins. I am just trying to get some planning done. Then make a few army lists for review. This is for me to avoid buying a bunch of unnecessary stuff I will most likely not utilize. I am trying to keep everything consistent in what the wood elf line has to offer. With conversions to make sense. Like zombie parts for well the glade guard to show they been recently raised.

 

[kevin.hopkins7]

Very good idea, I have spent ALOT of money on my VC, most of it sitting on a shelf and not in use

 

[Lord_Mortis]

Well when I think of the typical size of a unit, I usually see it as around the unit base size because not many people go over that but my typical unit sizes are fairly large, maybe 2 or 3 times the minimum requirement for the unit so that they can take a bit of fire but it really depends on how many points you've got to spend. If you've got plenty it's best to fill out your units, particularly the zombies because if you put them to their proper tasks they'll be getting whittled down very quickly.
My deployment is usually the zombies in the center so they can tie up any enemy that comes in range with the smaller units and ethereals bringing up the flank so they have something to attack being held back for them by the zombies.
With your lord, give me a pm and I'll give you some ideas about him. Otherwise you might want to ask around on the forums to see if you can find the right guy to talk to.

 

[Sume]

It did slip my mind. I will be building towards 2500 points. I would like to end up converting and making new units even if they don't make it into my initial army. That way I can have some choices. To start out getting what I need then jumping off from there is a better idea. Then just buying a bunch of random stuff and hope it works.

 

[BooZeFienD]

I also like running a couple of units of 5 knights in a "dart" formation just give them lances and barding you now have a unit of T4 S6(on the charge) with killing blow and a 2+ save for 130 points, I use them as a throw away unit to assassinate wizards and heroes out of units. If you know there are going to be wood elves or TK in the tourney give them a standard and the flaming banner, assassinating TK generals and bsb's or easily dealing with treekin.

The logic behind this is that if your 3 wide with 2 in the back, you maximize your attacks onto a single model, and the fact that you have killing blow at str 6 the dice that arn't killing blows are still probably going to wound.

 

[Demian]

hmmm... "dart knights" huh?

I'll give it a try, sounds fine for so few points. Maybe throw a cheap bsb Wight King on them, just to take advantage of the fact that HE CAN MOUNT A SKELETAL STEED AND VAMPIRES CAN'T" (yeah, I find it very sad that vampires make the black knights trip and die due to dangerous terrain...)

Also, I like to field a 40-man zombie unit with standard bearer. It is your "ready for action" tarpit! you can send them to die right away!!

 

[Adam_Barrow]

It looks like the units you're planning are all pretty widely used, so no problems with those choices. have you thought about our Monstrous Infantry, though? Crypt Horrors and Vargheists. Horrors usually get run in units of 8-10. They don't fight very well, but they're tough as Hell to kill off. Vargheists come in a couple sizes. Some people run 3 in a dart, 2 in front, 1 in rear, for mage hunting. Others field a big unit of 6, 2 ranks of 3, to be support flank/rear chargers or to harry small shooting units and skirmishers.

 

[eggsPR]

I usually comp myself to the ETC rules (40 model or 450 point max per unit), so my setups exclude uncomped Warhammer aka Dwellerhammer.

Zombies: either I don't use them or 40, just musician, no banner (why give up an extra 25 VPs when (not if) they die?

Skellies: 40 all day, HW/Shields, 20 if a bunker (yeah I use skellie bunkers over zombies. Lichbone pendant, musician AND champ. So when that flying thing charges my bunker I can challenge, die, and beat it with CR. then on my phase I ION the champ back and reissue...

Ghouls: Usually whatever remainder I have after my skellies and wolves I make a unit of these bad boys (no zombies... What scares enemies more, 3 units of zombies that just bleed points or something that gains you points?) - usually ends up at 28 or so. I don't horde them bc so many die so fast I'd rather rank up and take advantage of their 2 attacks. I go 7 wide so if i hit a unit 5 wide I have 22 attacks plus ranks to break steadfast. I'd go up to 40 ghouls if I played an engine with them, T4 with a 6+ save is tasty.

Wolves: 7 with a champ. No more, no less. Why? Bc I can charge any tasty single unit in the game and hold it for a turn. It can also take out war machines... But let's be honest, when was the last time wolves really hit war machines. But, u can charge a blood thirster who's coming around your flanks, issue challenge, he wins, overkills by 5 (which is maxxx), so 6 wounds total, but u charged... U have 1 wolf left after crumbling.

Bats: 2

Swarms: 1 unit of 2. Always deploy 1 wide, 2 deep, so when u duel charge u only make contact with 1 model, so u clip them on a corner which helps them from getting attacked.

Vargheist: see above, good explanations

Horrors: anything under 6 is garbage. 7 is ehh... 8 is good if u have 2 units of 8... If u run 1 unit go 10... If above 2500 points go 12.

Hex: I go 10 if I play them. When I play 5 they get wiped out by the ruby ring in a turn or 2.

BKs: depends. If they are a delivery system, keep it steadily above 5 rank/file models. The point of the bus besides movement and AS is the look out sir protection. If I'm not running a mounted necro in the 2nd rank i leave out the champ to stay above 5+ rank/file.

GG: see above explanations, they're good. I find less than 30 isn't work it.

Corpse Cart: 0 (1 if u are playing a friendly game)

Blood knights: 0-0

Terrorgheists: 2

Engines: 1 (2 to have fun)

Coach: 0-0

Rank/file wraiths: 0-0

Now I could be wrong, but if I am... then I don't wanna be right

 

[Johnny-Crass]

Ghouls 39-40
Zeds only ever in 20's
wolves in 5's
Black Knights always 10+
varghiests 3's
GG 40
Horrors only ever in 8's

 

[Sume]

Thank you guys a lot. I was trying to get a feel for unit sizes. As well I been playing Tomb Kings and a lot of the same apply here. As the skeletons are just as crappy maybe worse as I don't opt to give them Armour. I am trying to keep my army along a heavy infantry theme with the wood elf product line. I can easily seeing using the crypt horrors as modified treekin. I am hoping I finalized out a list to work towards in purchasing, and painting.