Using KotBK

[darkmark]

OK then folks,

Since seeing the models with better photos in the book I've pretty much decided to get them. I haven't finished reading the AB yet, but it looks like theres lots of interesting tactics available.

Screening is obviously going to be essential, and thankfully theres plenty of options to choose from eg DWs etc.

The martial honour rule looks like it could be an achilles heel, and will be exploited no doubt by opponents.

I think people will take 5, but I reckon 4 will provide a useful threat giving your opponent something to think about and keep point cost down.

Many have said these guys are nothing more than a white elephant ie useless choice, but what do you think?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I think they are realy good and can wipe out most things, the only things that are stopping me using them is the points, To get a decent sized unit and make sure its protected enough (at least banner of blood keep, possibly BSB with Banner of Drakenhof in there as well) its a huge points sink, basically eggs in basket approach. If you don't take the necessary protection they're never going to see combat as they are going to be facing every missile theenemy can chuck at them.

Plus for the points I prefer wraiths, just my personal choice of course.

 

[Vic]

I just played a game, testing my KotBK for the 1st time, and even though they did quite well, I think that I'll be sticking with 2x Varghulfs.

In the situation - Undivided Chaos Lord on chaos dragon landed behind them, so that they were march blocked and couldn't escape. Luckily I managed to get Book of Arkhan out, after he dispelled a power stone makabre from my Necro.

They managed to make 5! wounds on the dragon, before they crumbled, so the dragon was pretty much useless from this moment on, and my casty lord with just sword of might managed to get the final wound and overrun his feared general.



Anyway, back on the topic - I'm afreid that they'll have too much trouble from shooting, because if you don't buy any magical banners or stuff, they can easily die even from handguners, and with those banners (for example Std Bearer with the Flag of the Blood Keep) will cost too much.

If I ever play them again, it will most probably be 5 strong unit without any command grp models, with a descent screen (at least 2x5 Dire Wolves)

 

[Swoop]

I played 2 aborted games with VC Sunday vs my friends Dwarf gunline. In the first game I played with 6 Blood Knights, Kastellan, Standard (4+ ward). I was playing with 3 blocks of Ghouls, the blood knights, black coach, 6 black knights, lord, 2 vamps, and a necro on corpse cart. I got the first turn and advanced. The blood knights weathered his shooting unharmed as I put them smack dab in the middle of the table and shielded them behind the black knights to one side and the ghouls on the other. His Bolt thrower on my left flank and the cannon on my right flank had no LOS to the blood knights. He chose to take the flank shot on my black knights with the cannon rather than try to shoot me through the ghouls. I did this deliberately hoping to tempt him and trusted in luck to not loose all of the black knights (lost one to the cannon but all but one to quarellers and thunderers). His other bolt thrower was in combat with a summoned unit of zombies and the organ gun killed some ghouls. Unfortunately his anvil blew up on turn 1 so he wasn't able to slow down the blood knights. My turn saw them barely blow through 10 troll slayers (horrible rolling, 1 wound from 6 hits on the last giant slayer). Unfortunately for him the blood knights overran into the flank of his warriors. He had similar luck on the other flank losing his other warrior block after fleeing from my vampire lords block and being bumped off the table by a Summoned & Van Hales'd zombie unit. Needless to say we called the game at this point and reworked our lists.

I didn't take the Blood Knights in my second game. I'm just not comfortable with that many points in so few models. Especially since my Black Knights proved I couldn't make an armor save when playing undead.

My impressions after this limited use is that they certainly have some killing power if I could have rolled even slightly closer to average. Even with me rolling completely horribly I still killed 10 unarmored models. Much nastier than Chosen Chaos Knights in my opinion, they're probably going to kill anything they hit. The biggest problem is that if my opponent somehow manages to divert or slow this unit he has nullified 25% of my army. I've already thought of several ways to do this so... no thanks.

I don't see frenzy as a big problem. I was able to use the rest of my army to cover the blood knights flanks. In order to bait me he would have had to place the gyro copter in the middle of the field and regardless of the facing I would have moved towards something to kill. He would have just given me extra movement.

Swoop!

 

[manaknight]

I've just heard of them being used in a 2.5K battle against Lizardmen, and they did not perform well: they were baited by a skink unit which fleed (and avoided annihilation), and then charged on the exposed flank by a kroxigor unit, which made short work of them.

I think they are terribly good against some opponents (such as dwarves, ogres or chaos), but quite difficult to handle against others (Lizardmen, elves...), specially those with fast expendable units. I don't think I'm using (or buying) them for now, in tournaments is a rather risky approach to have so many points in a unreliable unit, but if I knew who I'm playing against, I may give them a chance.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I am going to get some basically because I just want to try them out. Like Chaos Knights they have to be used with expertise, screens to prevent unwanted frenzy charges is a must. I would think using dire wolves in a combo with them with a vamp with the Knights with Summon Creatures of the night power to either bump them up / support them. Even if it just gets the point where you have to raise some zombies in front as letting someone else get the charge on them is the key to disaster.

 

[Nermal]

I think KotBK can work quite well. Frenzy can be a problem but judicious use of Danse can make up for any forced charges. However, I do believe that the rest of the army needs to be designed around getting the max use out the KotBK (a good number of screeners, mounted vamps/characters with access to danse, etc).

I had one game where the KotBK just ran over a dwarf army ... danse helped a lot there. I had other games where they did very little because I didn;t play aggressively enough with them.

 

[Kain]

I think the Blood Knights are worth playing for a simple reason. If they charge something halfway worth it, they win you game. What I mean is, if they charge like a block of infantry (could be cheap too), they wipe them out and just keep going, they just win you the game.

The key is two important factors. A. You have to keep them in the middle of the game, not going up flanks everytime where their too far away from things, screeners are even better in this situation also. B. You have to make them self-sufficent. That is to say, you have to equip them in such a way where they simply don't need support and their not too over-costed.

The BK i take are 330 for a 5 man unit. Only a standard bearer with the Royal Banner of Strigos. You don't need a Kastellan or a Musician because a Kastellan is just 20 points for one more attack and a musician doesn't really do anything because if you lost a combat with Blood Knights, its either a blow-out or not at all really. Then I put in a Vampire Hero with Dread Knights and the Blood Drinker sword, meaning even if I lose one or 2 from shooting, it doesn't matter because my Hero just heals them all back when he attacks and because of the Banner, he gets to re-roll his misses. So far this combination has been amazing for me.

But that's just my opinion. Between the rares I always take one BK unit and one Wraith Unit.

 

[The Dark Sheep]

I've got one question about blood knights: In the army list it is clearly written that the kastellan can take a magic WEAPON, while in the example on page 64 he is given the cursed book. Does that mean that I can take any item, or do I still have a weapon as the only option?

 

[darkmark]

Does anyone think that the models could represent a lord or bsb if they're taken for characters instead? It sounds like they're currently best used by a wiley general with a dedicated force, or saved for bigger games. It would be a real shame not to see these guys in one form or another.

 

[Grish]

That's a good setup. I also like the removal of the Kastellan for the reason you can have your Vampire on the end of a unit, and if you charge something nasty (Greater Demon) you can have your hero out of combat so they cannot challenge with a Tactical Wheel. This is not an option if you have the Kastellan.

I'll have to try this one out. I don't have the book; does the hatred conferred by the banner give the Frenzied Mounts hatred as well?

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

Yes it confers hatred onto the mounts as normal, I think this is one of the best units to use that Banner on because due to thier frenzy they always have to overrun / pursure anyway.

 

[Grish]

How would this work on the charge? If you have a unit of 5 KotBK reduced to 3 because of shooting, when you charge if your hero goes first with blood drinker, can he raise KotBK with his sword, and then the raised units get to attack in Initiative order?

Obviously they wouldn't get the lance charge bonus but still... sounds pretty darn good.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

I was thinking along the same lines, the Blood Drinker says models are raised as if IoN was cast on them, if I remember rightly models that are raised by IoN into units that are in combat gain no bonuses but may still attack so I assume that it would work as Grishnakh99 stated though I can't be certain as my army book is at home...........

 

[marshal torrick]

That's a good setup. I also like the removal of the Kastellan for the reason you can have your Vampire on the end of a unit, and if you charge something nasty (Greater Demon) you can have your hero out of combat so they cannot challenge with a Tactical Wheel. This is not an option if you have the Kastellan.

I'll have to try this one out. I don't have the book; does the hatred conferred by the banner give the Frenzied Mounts hatred as well?

Frenzy + Hatred + Str7 attacks = Hotness

As I recall, the martial honor rule, or whatever it is they have, states that if there is no champion or charecter the RnF members of the unit are able to, and mandates that they do, accept a challenge if one is issued. They cannot issue challenges, only are forced to accept them.

 

[Trevy the Great]

As I beleive I have said before, I am a long-time Tyranid player. The two armies (VC and Nids) I find similar in many ways. Other members have brought up the fact that the Blood Knights will be targeted by every missile weapon the enemy can bring to bear, perhaps we can use this to our advantage.
In the Tyranid Army, there are several units (Carnifexes, Hive Tyrants and Lictors for the most part) that the enemy has an almost irrational fear of. While these creatures are powerful, they are not the nemesis that the enemy usually think of them. Therefore, it is one tactic in the Tyranid army to use these creatures to draw fire while the smaller, more devious bugs close in with the enemy.
Now, taking a small unit of Blood Knights will almost certainly invoke the feeling of irrational fear of Heavy Cavalry into the enemy (I know I experienced this against my Cold Ones in my Lizardmen days). The enemy will then most likely fire most of his shots into the Blood Knights, killing several but allowing your smaller units tp cross the feild unmolested. In the Magic Phase, you can then try to IoN the Blood Knights first, using one die at a time, causing your enemy to expend valueble Dispell Dice stopping it. Eventually, they will not have enough Dispell Dice to use against your mor powerful spells effectively.
Just something to consider.

 

[Disciple of Nagash]

When I looked briefly into the 40000 it was going to be Nids, like the info Veskarin

 

[Trevy the Great]

Anytime.
If your looking for help on bugs, go here:
www.Warpshadow.com
Very nice people, very gribbly critters.
PS: I'm Hive Fleet Aggredior.

 

[Grish]

As I recall, the martial honor rule, or whatever it is they have, states that if there is no champion or charecter the RnF members of the unit are able to, and mandates that they do, accept a challenge if one is issued. They cannot issue challenges, only are forced to accept them.

They 'may' accept challenges. They don't have to.

 

[Griffonstone]

Will be having a game next week whereby I will be taking a unit of 6 Kotbk with Full Command and Banner of the Blood Keep with a Vamp Hero on Nightmare to join them & screened by a pack of Dire Wolves. So will see how this combo works!

 

[Mikael.K]

I too like the banner of strigos thing there, hmmm, maybe I shall have to get some blood knights :mrgreen:

They 'may' accept challenges. They don't have to.

So if one declines, all models may still attack as normal?

 

[Reincus]

Most of the time they will have no where to go, since all models are likely to be in combat, and can't decline. I believe the 'may accept challenges' is in the event a character or champion is not in the combat to accept.

Considering the fluff paragraph right above the stat line reads: 'Such is their honor that they will refuse no challange...' it seems clear the intent of the martial honor rule is that if a challange is issued, the blood knights must accept.

 

[marshal torrick]

The only way your knight is going to get out of a challenge is if you field two ranks of them. As far as I know that's the only way to refuse a challenge with a model that's eligible to accept them.

A doughnut for the first player to field 10 in a serious game

 

[Mikael.K]

So, for gaming purposes every model is a champion, just like grail knights? They really could have been a bit clearer on that part .

 

[N.I.B]

No, you are not forced to nominate rank and file Bloodknight models to decline or accept a challenge. You can do it if you wish (and if there are no Kastellan in btb with enemies).