I would disagree - making Ogres hit you on 5s as opposed to 4s is huge. The issue I have is that Terror is not a particularly efficient way to do it, at least not when Miasma exists and is easily available to any Vampire Hero that wants it.
Vampire Counts: Army Book Overview
- Thread starter Johnny-Crass
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PrinceCharming
Black Knight
rothgar13 said:
i couldnt agree more with you Rothgar!
Getting hit on 5s instead of 4s really does matter alot!
Got my knights charging in to 40savages, got miasma on him, reduced to ws 1 and he really didnt lay a hand on me
No Rothgar you do not disagree. You do agree it's a bad investment right? And that was the only thing I said.
Now, making Swordmasters WS 1 is a worthwhile investment.
Now, making Swordmasters WS 1 is a worthwhile investment.
I do disagree with Ogres having WS1 not being a big deal. I agree in that Terror's not the best way to get there.
Can you quote me where I said it wouldn't be a big deal? I fail to see how I've said anything other than making them WS1 is a bad investment the way HERO intended.
I quite agree that Miasma is crippling to alot of armies, that is why it's considered one of the best(if not THE best) signature spell.
I quite agree that Miasma is crippling to alot of armies, that is why it's considered one of the best(if not THE best) signature spell.
The Sun King said:
Bold emphasis mine. You're saying that it's not a good investment because their WS is already bad, which is a terrible way of looking at it. What you should say is that it's not a good investment because it's unlikely to actually happen, due to the number of moving parts involved. If there were a reliable method of getting Ogres to fluff a Fear check, I would be endorsing it wholeheartedly.
It's not a terribly expensive option either.
-1 Ld bubble + Terror is only a 50 point investment. Fear Incarnate + Screaming Banner is ~another. So for a hundred points (depending on where you have it), it can be applied. For example, I once tooled my Blender Lord with Red Fury, Quickblood and Fear Incarnate. The Vamp bro next to him had Aura + Terror. The Black Knight bus with them had the Screaming Banner. Here you have a fast, reliable option to apply your "fearbomb" while making it infinitely more scary (haha!) to face vs. armies that are not ItP.
Is it not reliable vs. armies with ItP or ways to ignore Fear? Absolutely. Does that mean disregard it as an option? Hell no! The point is, I would gladly pay 25 points for Terror if it means causing Terror in fear-causing units when it matters.
-1 Ld bubble + Terror is only a 50 point investment. Fear Incarnate + Screaming Banner is ~another. So for a hundred points (depending on where you have it), it can be applied. For example, I once tooled my Blender Lord with Red Fury, Quickblood and Fear Incarnate. The Vamp bro next to him had Aura + Terror. The Black Knight bus with them had the Screaming Banner. Here you have a fast, reliable option to apply your "fearbomb" while making it infinitely more scary (haha!) to face vs. armies that are not ItP.
Is it not reliable vs. armies with ItP or ways to ignore Fear? Absolutely. Does that mean disregard it as an option? Hell no! The point is, I would gladly pay 25 points for Terror if it means causing Terror in fear-causing units when it matters.
That Vampire Lord is illegal, HERO. He has 105 points in gifts. That's what my dissent on this boils down to, really - opportunity cost. If you want AoDM on a Hero, he can't have Red Fury. If you want it on a Lord, either Red Fury or Quickblood can't be there (probably Quickblood, since its effects can be replicated by an item). And then there's always a solid chance they just pass the Fear test anyway, if their General is still upright.
AoDM is 25.
Edit: Never mind, you're talking about Fear Incarnate. Silly me. I guess if you wanted you could take a flier on that, but I wouldn't expect big things from it, and without AoDM, the Screaming Banner, and Supernatural Horror, it won't do much, hence my comment on moving parts.
Edit: Never mind, you're talking about Fear Incarnate. Silly me. I guess if you wanted you could take a flier on that, but I wouldn't expect big things from it, and without AoDM, the Screaming Banner, and Supernatural Horror, it won't do much, hence my comment on moving parts.
You still haven't quoted me saying that getting Ogres to WS1 isn't a big deal Rothgar.
There are plenty of good reasons why Fearbombing is a bad investment, this has been argued over and over across the board. Ogres having bad WS to begin with is just one of them.
There are plenty of good reasons why Fearbombing is a bad investment, this has been argued over and over across the board. Ogres having bad WS to begin with is just one of them.
HERO said:
But that's the thing - you can't just slap those abilities onto anything.
50pts might not seem like much, but when it's eating up the entire power's allowance for a vampire hero, that's another matter.
Maybe it's just how I look at it, but for me each vampire represents a hefty points investment. And, by taking all that fear stuff, you're denying yourself anything to increase their combat potential (quickblood, red fury). For me, that just seems like too much of a sacrifice - especially since fear won't even work against many opponents.
Furthermore, against ogres, it seems like you could achieve the same effect by having a couple of Lv2 Vampires with Lore of Shadow. let's face it - shadow is a damn good lore (particularly against ogres), and the signature spell seems like a great way to reduce WS (whilst leaving you your entire vampire power allowance).
@The Sun King: I'm sorry, did you not read the quote that I posted at the end of last page? You said that spending your points on bringing Ogres down to WS1 isn't a good investment! You didn't say that Terror wasn't a good way to do it, you didn't say that there are more effective ways to neutralize the threat, you didn't say any of that. If you can't recognize what you said, then I guess there's nothing further to discuss.
@HERO: Exactly, but are the chances for it to not work lesser than the chances to get dispelled? I'd say they're just as bad, or worse, and Miasma works on ItP stuff.
@HERO: Exactly, but are the chances for it to not work lesser than the chances to get dispelled? I'd say they're just as bad, or worse, and Miasma works on ItP stuff.
HERO said:Except Fearbomb can't be dispelled. It just has the chance to not work
Or, to put it another way - they both have a chance not to work. :tongue:
Thing is, you can try Miasma multiple times, and it works for 2 combat phases if successful. In addition, unlike fearbomb, it has versatility - you can also snipe initiative, or even BS; whereas fearbomb is only ever useful in combat, and can only ever drop WS.
Furthermore, Miasma can work against all armies - even the ones that are ItP. In contrast, Unbreakable, ItP, Frenzy all kill Fearbomb dead.
We have gone horribly off topic and it has turned into a screaming contest between Sun King and Rothgar. Pointless really. Yes fearbombing is nice against specific armies. But not on a BK bus. That unit will already dish out enough pain and suffer not much in return. Do it on a horde of skellies or something like that, it actually makes them scary (lol). Obviously the better the enemys WS the better fear is on them.
Johnny where are yoooouuuuu?!??!?!?!!! I will join the rest of the people here on this - list building and VC 101 would be very nice, especially coming from you.
King and Rothgar- your argument is cluttering the thread and is in no way helpful to anyone reading, even if it is quite amusing. Sort it out outside the thread though, new players don't want to be wading through all these posts just to find some helpful advice.
and it has turned into a screaming contest between Sun King and Rothgar. Pointless really. Yes fearbombing is nice against specific armies. But not on a BK bus. That unit will already dish out enough pain and suffer not much in return. Do it on a horde of skellies or something like that, it actually makes them scary (lol). Obviously the better the enemys WS the better fear is on them. Johnny where are yoooouuuuu?!??!?!?!!! I will join the rest of the people here on this - list building and VC 101 would be very nice, especially coming from you.
King and Rothgar- your argument is cluttering the thread and is in no way helpful to anyone reading, even if it is quite amusing. Sort it out outside the thread though, new players don't want to be wading through all these posts just to find some helpful advice.
I'm done arguing, I promise. 
I don't like Skeletons for the Fearbomb either, frankly, and the reason why is WS2. Making people hit them on 4+ simply isn't punitive enough. I think that the unit you really get the most juice out of Fearbombing with is actually Grave Guard - they have just enough WS that you can get hit back on 5+ (which is a big deal because then you don't get mashed before you swing, as is too often the case for them), and smashing people with S6 attacks that hit on a 2+ with the Banner of the Barrows evokes memories of the old Helm of Commandment trick. Of course, this trick requires a BSB with a magic banner, but it might be worth looking into.
I don't like Skeletons for the Fearbomb either, frankly, and the reason why is WS2. Making people hit them on 4+ simply isn't punitive enough. I think that the unit you really get the most juice out of Fearbombing with is actually Grave Guard - they have just enough WS that you can get hit back on 5+ (which is a big deal because then you don't get mashed before you swing, as is too often the case for them), and smashing people with S6 attacks that hit on a 2+ with the Banner of the Barrows evokes memories of the old Helm of Commandment trick. Of course, this trick requires a BSB with a magic banner, but it might be worth looking into.
You're right Aren, no need to get stuck in semantics.
Reasons Fearbombing is not competetive:
1. The combos are at least in the 200 points range. Which is expensive... you can almost get a TG for that.
2. It rarely works. ItP, High LD, Cold Blooded, BSB rerolls - these are availble to most armies.
3. The weapon skill of the VC is too low to effectively make use of WS1 on the enemy. Now if Skels had WS3 it might be viable.
4. The Vampiric Powers that needs to be taken eats up too much of the characters allowment.
5. There are far better ways to achieve similar results with lore of Death and Shadow.
Reasons Fearbombing is not competetive:
1. The combos are at least in the 200 points range. Which is expensive... you can almost get a TG for that.
2. It rarely works. ItP, High LD, Cold Blooded, BSB rerolls - these are availble to most armies.
3. The weapon skill of the VC is too low to effectively make use of WS1 on the enemy. Now if Skels had WS3 it might be viable.
4. The Vampiric Powers that needs to be taken eats up too much of the characters allowment.
5. There are far better ways to achieve similar results with lore of Death and Shadow.
I can definitely agree with all of that. It's too bad Ghouls can't carry banners, otherwise this would at least be worth thinking about.
Yup, all true. I tend to treat it like the hunger rule: nice if you get it off, useless 84.444444% of the time (or 5/6 of the time if you prefer fractions )
On a side note, I miss our characters from the past book, you could make a much better vampire mage. Now there is next to no difference between a lvl4 necro and lvl4 vamp lord. MotBA is not ideal, really none of the vampiric powers for magic are. I miss the days when you could make a loremaster with +2 pdice for magic. Now close combat lords got a massive boost but magic lords got knocked down a peg or three, more expensive for worse abilities.
Rothgar and King, run along now and be good boys
.
) On a side note, I miss our characters from the past book, you could make a much better vampire mage. Now there is next to no difference between a lvl4 necro and lvl4 vamp lord. MotBA is not ideal, really none of the vampiric powers for magic are. I miss the days when you could make a loremaster with +2 pdice for magic. Now close combat lords got a massive boost but magic lords got knocked down a peg or three, more expensive for worse abilities.
Rothgar and King, run along now and be good boys
.
Agreeing that Caster Lords took a hit with the new book, but I actually like it, make a MN much more interesting as an alternative.
Aren said:
I know what you mean. Currently, it just feels like our magic powers just aren't worth taking. They might as well have just given us extra CC powers instead.
- MotBA seems like it should be ~55pts. 75 is too much. a) it just isn't worth that much, b) it's incredibly prohibitive in terms of other powers for your vampire (70pts would at least allow you a bit of combat power in the form of red fury).
- Forbidden Lore seems like it should also be able to give loremaster for Lore of the Vampires.
- Dark Acolyte should either be cheaper, or add to the invocation casting total (i.e. it should be able to help you reach the cast-limit if necessary).
The problem is, you might as well just spend the points on a Lv4 necromancer (or even 2), instead of a caster-vampire, which doesn't seem right.
I just save the points when it comes to taking a Lv.4 in my army.
Combat Lord, sure. Smack on 105 more points and you have yourself a Lv.4. Sure, most of the time he's using Vampire Lore because he's your General, but that's fine as hell for me! LoV is actually a fantastic lore minus the last ability imo.
Combat Lord, sure. Smack on 105 more points and you have yourself a Lv.4. Sure, most of the time he's using Vampire Lore because he's your General, but that's fine as hell for me! LoV is actually a fantastic lore minus the last ability imo.