So, if a 9th edition Vampire Counts army was made, how would you like to see Vampiric Powers and the Bloodlines handled? Would you want to see the various Bloodlines (i.e. Blood Dragon, Necrach, Strigoi and Lahmia) return?
Vampire Counts Bloodlines
- Thread starter najo
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What, of course! Blood lines are half the fun, although mix and match powers are cool/fine, limiting them to blood lines just allows creative control over the balance issues that may arise from matching too powerful of combos that are not "On theme".
But of course, all it takes to be on theme is a cleaver way of interpreting the rules, as mechanically there is nothing sacred. But who doesn't love customization options? No one. The issue is that allowing too broad of customization creates more situations that may have not been thought of during design and leads to balance issues. It's control of the game environment vs allowing freedom that may get out of hand. Granted the freedom doesn't have to grant out of hand boons, it just makes the work load on you far greater to ensure the balance isn't going to topple.
I love customization. I love making character models that are specific and unique and have anything I want. But bending the rules over or making them too tangled to sort out what problems are the root or which can not go together.
Malifaux limits powers quite extensively, and that wouldn't be a bad idea perhaps. Rather than The-Game-That-Was using simply points values, limiting powers themselves or some other method. I don't know, it is a deep issue in and of itself.
But of course, all it takes to be on theme is a cleaver way of interpreting the rules, as mechanically there is nothing sacred. But who doesn't love customization options? No one. The issue is that allowing too broad of customization creates more situations that may have not been thought of during design and leads to balance issues. It's control of the game environment vs allowing freedom that may get out of hand. Granted the freedom doesn't have to grant out of hand boons, it just makes the work load on you far greater to ensure the balance isn't going to topple.
I love customization. I love making character models that are specific and unique and have anything I want. But bending the rules over or making them too tangled to sort out what problems are the root or which can not go together.
Malifaux limits powers quite extensively, and that wouldn't be a bad idea perhaps. Rather than The-Game-That-Was using simply points values, limiting powers themselves or some other method. I don't know, it is a deep issue in and of itself.
I'm a big fan of the 8th edition approach, where you build the character as you want, if for no other reason than I did play von carsteins, and restricting the warrior powers to blood dragons, the caster powers to necrarchs, etc, just really made it impossible to represent the range of abilities described within Vlad's bloodline with your own characters.
Just in general, I prefer things to be more open in the rules, and prefer in the fluff for the manifestation of the vampyric curse to be more individualistic rather than specific linear traites passed down from sires. That the leanings of the blood lines come from just choosing children with similar mind sets.
The exception is where the rules don't really allow for it. Strigoi kind of require different stats to go with their unarmed, unarmored gimmick. Honestly, I'd rather see Strigoi allowed to purchase more magic levels, and then dump necrarchs in there with them, as 'vampire lords sustained by feeding methods other than drinking living blood (absorbing death magic directly for necrarchs, or indirectly through eating corpses for strigoi), and thus semi-monstrous as a result.
Or maybe just make necrarchs their own thing entirely?
The other 'problem child' is lahmia, since they like to go unarmored in the fluff, but that just doesn't work in the game. IMO that can be resovled with a larmian themed power. Maybe something that makes the vampire harder to hit, or grants some sort of dodge save, at the cost of no armor save? I don't know. But in general, I don't see sufficient cause to split blood dragon, von carstein, and lahmian vampires into different units, or even distinct upgrades or power sets.
More than anything else, however, even if you do add blood lines back in, do not restrict armies to a single bloodline. We've seen multiple cases in the fluff, especially in recent years, of von carsteins and blood dragons or strigoi fighting together. If people want to restrict themselves to particular themes that's fine, but that should be their choice, not a mechanical requirement.
Just in general, I prefer things to be more open in the rules, and prefer in the fluff for the manifestation of the vampyric curse to be more individualistic rather than specific linear traites passed down from sires. That the leanings of the blood lines come from just choosing children with similar mind sets.
The exception is where the rules don't really allow for it. Strigoi kind of require different stats to go with their unarmed, unarmored gimmick. Honestly, I'd rather see Strigoi allowed to purchase more magic levels, and then dump necrarchs in there with them, as 'vampire lords sustained by feeding methods other than drinking living blood (absorbing death magic directly for necrarchs, or indirectly through eating corpses for strigoi), and thus semi-monstrous as a result.
Or maybe just make necrarchs their own thing entirely?
The other 'problem child' is lahmia, since they like to go unarmored in the fluff, but that just doesn't work in the game. IMO that can be resovled with a larmian themed power. Maybe something that makes the vampire harder to hit, or grants some sort of dodge save, at the cost of no armor save? I don't know. But in general, I don't see sufficient cause to split blood dragon, von carstein, and lahmian vampires into different units, or even distinct upgrades or power sets.
More than anything else, however, even if you do add blood lines back in, do not restrict armies to a single bloodline. We've seen multiple cases in the fluff, especially in recent years, of von carsteins and blood dragons or strigoi fighting together. If people want to restrict themselves to particular themes that's fine, but that should be their choice, not a mechanical requirement.
I don't think there needs to be bloodline powers. I think there needs to be a wider range of vampiric powers that are actually useful and well priced.
I would say have 1 Lord which is upgraded. Have a list like now of powers with a few that are restricted to certain bloodlines. Quick blood for lahmaian and red fury for blood dragons as an example.
I completely agree with Malisteen's nurture over nature take on the bloodlines. In terms of implementation I'd suggest a generic Vampire that can be modified to a specific Bloodline (mandatory Dreadknight for Blood Dragons, stat mod for Strigoi, no armour and Quickblood for Lahmians?) Have one Lord level power for each Bloodline with prerequisites like the Bloodline mod and one or two other powers? This would control the build to a great extent, for better or worse...
no bloodline maw, imo, but some bloodline-themed powers priced to be incompatible, perhaps, is, imo, a good middle ground.
Id say look at the chaos gifts in the WoC book. You can use bloodline specific to prevent some silly combos.
Seth von carstein
Zombie
If you want to look at some experimental rules for a "9th age" you should check this out: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=98 
you must of missed the topic that had people saying they didn't like the rules.If you want to look at some experimental rules for a "9th age" you should check this out: http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewforum.php?f=98
Seth von carstein
Zombie
I should add I was down the pub while writing that so my tone came across more passive aggressive than intended
Probably to make life difficult for @najo I'd imagine.
No but really, @Ghouly 's idea isn't bad, it's just the whole idea of work. For the designer, complicated rules require more and more work to balance and tweak and keep in line, as well as to devise and write them as clearly and in as short a manner as possible. Giving powers with different prices is potentially a bit complicated. And then there is a work load given to the players, of remembering different rules, possibly the issue of having to search different sections of the book to find the rules if it isn't laid out in as easy a method as possible, and even interpreting the interaction/effects of abilities. And it might seem like a designer is more responsible for the interpreting of rules, but players look to stretch sentences and words into what they are not quite often, either due to ignorance - inconsistent/poor writing on the designers side (Often a problem with GW)- or attempting to abuse rules - trying to make the rules do things they shouldn't (Rules lawyers or people just looking to bend rules).
Although if there were a list of powers without points, simply detailing the powers and what they do, and each power's price was listed in the individual models' codex entry then it wouldn't be terribly complicated (Save for potential edit/type-o errors reflecting incorrect points). So that really isn't too much of a stretch. The balance issue still exist though, and as @Malisteen suggested, points prohibitive pricing is a simple way to stop powers from being combined, but IHMO it is a very ugly way to use the rules. Prohibitive pricing just looks bad, and it's silly because when powers are force multipliers (Like +3A or Re-roll misses), then other powers value is increased with those powers combined.
Then you get into strictly acceptable builds for Vampires (Blenders MUST HAVE X/Y/Z or Casters can't buy power X because then they can't take A/B together, etc), and if that is the case, then just print the rules with those builds as the assumption, and let people who want to make their army fluffy make up rules on their own. Because when there are strictly better builds that are clear enough that everyone takes them, then the rules are failing pretty hard. And there might be slightly different selections based on say, Meta, like "oh this power is broken good, as long as no one you play against ever takes anything with a save of 2+!" or army specific counters.
I'd rather make my own rules adapted to a situation I need or want, than to be told prices for powers that make my choices "Stupid" if you're trying to win, or incorrectly convey the message to players, as a whole, that the power is "Worth" a value that isn't true. But the basis of my argument here is simply that points are an extremely flawed system, especially when taken as the ONLY balancing factor for the game. And I'm probably the only person here who is willing to "fight" against the idea of points, since that is many players biggest gripe with AoS. :ghost:
I guess assuming it's a WHFB project points are staying; I would favour free selection based on solid pricing of each power, with a unique bloodline power and prerequisites for each faction. I see that different prices and even restricted availability of powers between bloodlines might be less pleasing but I'd imagine those controls would make balancing easier?
I like Ghouly's idea of using points to represent availability, more scarce equals more points, but the only real use of a points system is to aim for game balance or maybe as a kind of a looser handicap system or grading for armies; either way, scarcity in the fluff I feel has to be decided upon as a matter of conscience for the player.
I'm keeping points in since this is a Warhammer clone. Bloodlines are proving complex too. To much restriction leads to boring options. @Ghouly option actually is somewhat logical and easily managed how @Tawg described. Only thing I don't like about that option is there is an aspect that's messy, varying points and four long lists for the non-von carstein lines.
The other problem, discounted powers makes it easier to combine OP effects.
I was thinking of a simpler option. Each bloodline has modifiers, Strigoi Ghoul King stays as is. Then certain powers are restricted to (or from) the bloodline, with von Carstein ignoring power restrictions. Red Fury could be Blood Dragon and Strigoi only. Quickblood could be Lamhia only. The problem is this gets messy too. You nearly need to allow each power to two bloodlines plus von Carstein, or there becomes little choice for the vampires. But once you do this, the whole thing becomes cluttered.
I'm open to suggestions.
The other problem, discounted powers makes it easier to combine OP effects.
I was thinking of a simpler option. Each bloodline has modifiers, Strigoi Ghoul King stays as is. Then certain powers are restricted to (or from) the bloodline, with von Carstein ignoring power restrictions. Red Fury could be Blood Dragon and Strigoi only. Quickblood could be Lamhia only. The problem is this gets messy too. You nearly need to allow each power to two bloodlines plus von Carstein, or there becomes little choice for the vampires. But once you do this, the whole thing becomes cluttered.
I'm open to suggestions.
I've pretty long had the idea that you can make the bloodlines into vampiric powers. Each costing lets say 10 pts and provide some statboosts and/or special rule. So there is a Lahmia bloodline that makes it impossible for you to wear armour but gives you a 6+ dodge (ward) save and a -1 Ld penalty to enemies in btb. And a Blooddragon bloodline that gives you +2 WS and full plate armour, but gives you -1 to cast spells.
You could then use a system of small symbols on each power. Lets say * means it is Blooddragon. Then every power that is strictly fluffy on a Blooddragon is marked with * (in a final version you might have crossed swords for blooddragon, a bat for von Carstein, a rose or a pyramid for Lahmia etc.). You then give a bonus to a model that takes the Blooddragon vampiric power and only select other powers marked with *, perhaps a 10 pts bigger allowance on powers (or 10 pts reduction on the most expensive power he takes). That way a bloodline vampire can have as much points spent in powers are other do, but only under the condition that they make fluffy builds. But you can still combine as you like, even using the bloodlines, at the price of 10 pts, which hopefully can be used to remove the most horrible combos.
You could then use a system of small symbols on each power. Lets say * means it is Blooddragon. Then every power that is strictly fluffy on a Blooddragon is marked with * (in a final version you might have crossed swords for blooddragon, a bat for von Carstein, a rose or a pyramid for Lahmia etc.). You then give a bonus to a model that takes the Blooddragon vampiric power and only select other powers marked with *, perhaps a 10 pts bigger allowance on powers (or 10 pts reduction on the most expensive power he takes). That way a bloodline vampire can have as much points spent in powers are other do, but only under the condition that they make fluffy builds. But you can still combine as you like, even using the bloodlines, at the price of 10 pts, which hopefully can be used to remove the most horrible combos.
Menkeroth
A Knight of Blood
The last variant, I suppose, though some powers can be shared by different bloodlines, but there're definitely unique to each of them. It can be made easily, but it's a pity there were no other bloodlines in the 8th armybook (apart from the Strigoi, of course).