Vampire Counts vs. Skaven

[Zelious]

Ranged Problem...

I have a friend that plays skaven, he uses 1 furnace, 2 warp lightning cannons, Doom Wheel, He has a unit of 40 slaves (5 wide), so they aren't easily broken if I play anything else besides a unit of 40 skeletons (5 wide). - Also hes got this 1 shot 50 point item that uses a large area effect at str 10 (which usually ends up killing like 20-25 models in a unit)

Everything that shoots in his army is magic, so ethereal is pointless.

Melee Problem...

Their entire army has the ability "strength in numbers" so the entire army is pretty much leadership 10.

Almost everything (that matters) in his army melee-wise is also magic, so ethereal is pointless in melee combat as well as ranged.

I can make my vampires really good character killers (frost blade vs. plague furnace, Hell pit abomination, beguile + -1 leadership aura, wight king, sword of kings, etc.), but now that, come 8th edition rules all knowledge that everyone has is public; and since he has so many more effective units that I can get he can just make sure my big unit (if I try to play a big unit) either gets caught up with slaves (since all his firing is going to make those 40 units of skeletons go to 20 or so before they even get in the fight (especially if I put 3 vampires in that unit; thats basically game, by being caught up all game and fired at [since skaven can fire into their slave units).

If I try to protect my flanks with zombies it really limits mobility, a lot.

If I take a full on calvary army his blocks take up the entire other side of the board, so no flanking is going to happen, also my calvary is just going to die from ranged strikes. Not to mention the plaque furnace kills calvary.

A lot of people seem to get mad at him for taking the best list in his book, so they just don't play him, and I will play him, I just find it pointless to. I'm not mad at him, because if I could I would do the same thing, I really wouldn't care if people didn't play me because my models look awesome, and I'd know that I had the best list so I'd just gloat about it and make people want to beat me (I like feeling like I'm the evil boss of a game, its fun, you usually don't fight anything, but when you do its the most fun and toughest fight for the heroes). And yea, I do want to beat him, with his best list; otherwise I wouldn't bother. I just want to know if its possible. If it isn't I guess I should just concede until my army magically gets better with a new army book or something, like Nagash's return, that would be fun. (liches and vampires together, want to see that)

Magic Problems...

He maxes out of greyseers, and all his wizards, just to have as much dispel dice as I get dice and a dispel scroll. Plus he gets the 13th spell off for sure.

Lore of vampires is pretty much useless now. Can't throw 1 dice at Invocation anymore since your done casting on a roll of 1 or 2 now; so can't use that tactic to get your opponent's spell dice out of the way.
Also, now you have to throw dice at bound spells which make the corpse carts almost not worth taking anymore.

The fact that wizards don't add that much power dice to the pool anymore makes them not worth their points anymore, and since all vampires are wizards and that is in their point value I think we're getting ripped off in that area, well everyone is, be we don't have a choice, not to mention, again; our spells are useless now.

I've read a little on the lord of light spell but my thinking is that anyone that wants to take a different lore than they have (I don't know how many armies have the option like Forbidden lore, my guess is most of them probably do; which makes the uniqueness of having fun just doing vampiric things [like raising dead, summoning spirit hosts, crippling units with a slow death, etc] pointless, what's the point of playing vampires if you can't be vampires effectively?)... we had flavor and effectiveness before, now we just have "copy lore of light and hope to roll double 6s?"... (by the way I barely ever roll 6s, thats why I don't like killing blow, I'm happy that double 1s don't miscasts anymore, but getting hit with strength 10 hits from skaven rolling double 6s for a spell while I'm in combat with them is stupid.)

Movement Problems...

The vampire required marching rule makes me really not like taking black knights, if you take a vampire to go with their unit they can no longer ignore terrain.

What do we get thats good?

Fear sucks now... So the only good thing about vampires seems to be "immune to psychology". But when you look at daemons and all the other stuff they get its no contest.

They did they screw us up so bad? (Although to be fair in 7th I beat pretty much every army except skaven, though I don't really see myself winning vs. skaven; ever, or daemons [not sure because I haven't played a lot vs. daemons])

Is there a reason that the game isn't balanced, its like every army list uses the last one that came out to make sure that it can beat it, at least thats what I'm seeing; it seems childish to put it nicely.

Final Question:

So how do you beat a skaven list that has all those magic dice, magic ranged attacks, magic melee attacks, anti-flank set up, stubborn slaves, entire army with leadership 10 + plenty of flaming attacks, furnace that gets impact hits every turn and a 1 shot strength 10 huge template item?

 

[Bravo_10]

I think I may have some answers for you (partly because I've been struggling against a Skaven army myself and have a fairly good idea of what won't work).

Firstly, the fact that he can span the entire playing field with his army kinda sucks. I've had to deal with that too, and it's so vital to flank against Skaven. Your best bet is to scrap skellies (even their crappiest core units are at least on par with them) and go with ghouls. Their poisoned attacks and T4 are excellent against his troops' relatively low armor and S3 attacks. Don't even think about starting with any zombies. Grave Guard with GW are also fantastic against his core, which are usually fairly low toughness. Give them a Banner of the Barrows and watch them cut his clanrats to pieces. And once you engage his infantry blocks, use Raise Dead or SuH to summon up some zombies back behind his guys. Then just IoN them up to whatever number you would like (remember, at least 2 full ranks of flankers to deny his rank bonus) and VHDM those suckers right into his rear. If his dispelling is a problem, keep a couple of power stones handy. Skaven are absolute garbage without the rank bonus, and ghouls will eat them for breakfast. Also the loss of fear auto-break really hurts us, but keep in mind that it probably wouldn't have been very effective against Skaven anyway because they will virtually always outnumber you. Just break them normally and watch amusedly as your opponent tries to rally a unit with LD4.

Now about the casting: the days of casting vampires are, in my opinion, over. The only advantage to a high level caster is the addition of his level to his rolls. Therefore, I would suggest going with a combat lord for power (and maybe a wight king if you can afford it), but don't forget Necromancers! Those cheap lvl 1 wizards can choose whichever necromancy spell they like (usually VHDM or IoN), and they can both carry two scrolls/power stones. At only 100 points, a Necro with a power stone and dispell scroll is an excellent use of hero points. Plus, you don't have to give any scrolls to your vampire(s) and waste magic item points.
Also keep a few corpse carts with balefire handy to take away the effectiveness of his grey seers. Black coaches are also nice for anti-magic because ALL of the PD are commonly pooled. Be careful about that though, because it can very easily suck up your own dice as well.

Lastly, that artillery could always be a problem. I would recommend getting a few fell bats and definitely dire wolves to pound those machine crews into the stone ages. That plague furnace might be difficult, but a vampire lord with the Frostblade could wound it once and then bring it crashing down. (Although, he wouldn't be able to take any other magic items, so it's best used in conjunction with the Dread Knight power for the 2+ armor save it confers).

Hope all of this helps! I know Skaven can seem frustrating, but hang in there!

 

[Zelious]

Yeah that was my plan before (frostblade + dread knight), but my frostblade got caught up with slaves the entire game - but I wanted to try out the new horde rules, which was a mistake on my part (so they were stubborn the whole game simply because they had more ranks than me), however I still wouldn't have out flanked him because of all the ranged attacks, trying to heal ranks is pointless now too, since you have to pretty much spend 2 dice on each invocation cast) and apparently the new rule is 1 of any type of magic item? I tried to take 2 dispel scrolls but apparently 8th edition doesn't allow you to?

Besides whenever he casts spells its usually with 6-8 dice and he tries to roll double 6s anyway. Most of the time he gets them (which also hurts my units that are next to him when he casts).

Taking necromancers seems bad because they don't help the units march, and they die really easy, kind of need them for dance macabre though, no other way of really getting that.

I read somewhere that direwolves and fell bats die too soon to kill the machine crews; and do they get stand and shoot as well? Not sure. Besides that, the wolves couldn't march anyway without a vampire around. (guess thats what the vampire only movement of 9 item is for, eh? I still think I'd die before I got there though. Can't hurt to try.

Thanks for the advice.

 

[Yanda]

Click

 

[Bravo_10]

Remember those VC rare units! Both Varghulf and Blood Knights have the Vampire rule, so just keep them close and you'll be able to march! Plus if you field any skeletons you can spring for the banner that will let them march as though they were within 6" of a vampire.

And dire wolves usually won't survive very long against regular infantry, but they appear to have the same WS, S, and T as most all war machine crews. Simply because you have more of them than your opponent, Dire Wolves and Fell Bats should easily crush them. If you're feeling lucky you could try wraiths instead, and the Banshee howl could very well wipe the poor bastards out in one turn if you roll well enough. But that's always a gamble because magic shooting would just rip gaping holes on those things.

And yeah I forgot about the rule against dupes of scrolls and stones. That kinda hurts, but just give the Book of Arkhan to one of your Necromancers instead. He could then potentially cast VHDM on one PD and still benefit from a different necromancy spell (the one he chose initially). And don't worry about casting IoN with one die. If your vampire lord bungles his roll, then you still (hopefully) have one necromancer with IoN and the Book and another with VHDM to finish the job.

The vaunted Frostblade doesn't necessarily have to be used expressly for the furnace, you know. It's fantastic against rat ogres if combined with Red Fury (every model auto-slain gets you 4 wounds and therefore 4 extra attacks with RF). A combat lord with the Frostblade almost always can take out an ogre unit single-handedly if he charges. Plus, you could always wield it against his grey seers if you get close enough. That's a lovely DENIAL move, especially since his seers can't pick up any spells that can snipe off characters. He simply has to watch as the vampire lord draws eerily closer, safely hidden inside a bunker unit of ghouls.

 

[autti]

Besides whenever he casts spells its usually with 6-8 dice and he tries to roll double 6s anyway. Most of the time he gets them (which also hurts my units that are next to him when he casts).

Page 32 of rule book states that maximum of 6 dice can be used to cast a single spell (unless some skaven-only or other special rule applies?). If I calculate correctly, 6 dice gives him roughly a 26% change of irresistible force, so he's really lucky if he gets it most of the time.

I read somewhere that direwolves and fell bats die too soon to kill the machine crews; and do they get stand and shoot as well? Not sure.

Page 109: unless stated otherwise, his war machines are Slow to Fire and therefore do not get to Stand and Shoot.

 

[Devo]

You could try a vampire lord with Forbidden Lore (death magic) and try sniping his Grey Seers. The base spell in Death is a comparison of unmodified Ld, so you might be able to take him out. Just roll 5-6 dice each time you try.

 

[Originman]

You could try a vampire lord with Forbidden Lore (death magic) and try sniping his Grey Seers. The base spell in Death is a comparison of unmodified Ld, so you might be able to take him out. Just roll 5-6 dice each time you try.

Problem is if they're on a bell they get a 2+ ward vs spells.

 

[Zelious]

I honestly think the absolute only thing that we have against Skaven is the Frostblade.

Now since he knows I have it, he can just try to tie the unit up with slaves, since they are unbreakable now.

So just take the frostblade put your vampire in a unit with the "all attacks are flaming" banner + the Regen banner I think is always a must on BSB, Its really hard not to take it; mainly for combat res. Infinite hatred, Dread Knight and Red fury.

That does seem most effective. I can see myself winning with that. Maybe, gotta roll a 6 though, but its the best option.

 

[Solomon Kane]

One of my friends plays a very similar army of skaven, though screaming bell instead of furnace, and until recently I struggled in the same way. The best thing I found to do is really pick out his weaknesses and exploit them. for example if he maxes out on wizards his characters wont be up to much so a number of basic vamps (infinite hatred AoD) spread across the army will increase combat res everywhere.

Try a lord with sowrd of +3 attacks, IH and RF. put him in a unit and watch those 40 slaves drop 15-20 in one turn. (I had GG with BotB)

Raising zombies behind his large units is invaluable for denying his leadership bonuses. using the sceptre can garuntee the unit is big enough or a quick IoN, then charge them with Vanhels or if he's closed your magic down wait until next turn. Lastly Slaves > Zombies but only just! A timely raise undead horde can tie up a big unit for a couple of turns effectivly removing them from play while you concentrate on tearing his elites apart one at a time.

PS black coach FTW! watch those skaven infantry bounce off T6 4+ Ward, just beware of anything with more than 20 men and use terror on those jezzails/war machines