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Abhorash.

Grave Guard
Apr 28, 2009
282
Minnesota
Uziel,

Yes I did exaggerate with 10x the speed, however keep in mind an Ogre Tyrant has 4 initiative and a Vamp Lord has 7, quite a bit faster. Not to mention the Tyrant probably has a great weapon. That is without ASF. and both of them have S5 and 5T, cause an ogre is huge and burly and a Vampire Lord is undead and very resilient towards anything that would kill a normal man.

Read "The Black Prince" in the 7h edition Vampire Counts army book (page 27). It is a Vampire Lord who goes out and single handedly mutilates and decapitates 12 rampaging ogres. If a Vampire Lord can kill 12 Ogres by himself I think he can manage one Tyrant. I shouldn't say it would be an easy fight, but being biased I am still gonna say a Vampire Lord (Blood Dragon or Strigoi) would take down a Tyrant more often than not, fluff wise.

I do think that a well placed blow from a Tyrant to a Vampire Lord's face could wreck him none the less. xD
 

Valle

Grave Guard
May 23, 2011
269
Lets look at real life lore then ;)... A huge bodybuilder of a man against a highly trained martial art expert such as a shaolin monk. My money wouldnt be on mass in that case. Yes the bodybuilder could destroy him if he got to him, but the fact is that he probably wont know what hit him till he is on the floor. These guys can train their body to punch so fast that they can punch through a piece of cloth hangning from the ceiling and other amazing stuff such as holdning their entire body weight up standing on just 1 finger, how is that for balance and power?. Point is that power COMBINED with speed is a very lethal coctail and this in no mere shaolin monk its an unholy creature that possess such power as well as hundreds of years of combat training. In my book he should win against any mortal opponent out there and he wont need any mass to do it.
 

Abhorash.

Grave Guard
Apr 28, 2009
282
Minnesota
Exactly. A Vampire Lord is pretty much an Ogre compressed into a man size body, retaining all of the speed and ferocity but gaining tons of strength and resilience. I'm pretty sure if every race in Warhammer fought to the death, no magic weapons, bare naked, there would be many Vampires standing. Their very race is the title of their army book I mean come on.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Apr 10, 2013
1,089
We're getting way off-topic here, so I'll address each topic separately. Firstly, I've been running Lords on Monsters ever since 5th edition was released. Bretonnian Lords on Hippogriphs, Elven Lords on Dragons, Saurus Oldbloods on Carnosaurs, you name it.

I have almost always been disappointed in their performance. They wiff their attacks, have their mounts chopped out from under them, get obliterated by cannon balls, etc. Running a Vampire Lord on Zombie Dragon is the first time I've really felt like I had a powerful model on the table, and that is only because of the items and powers I can take. With Nightshroud, I can strike first and not worry about my mount getting chopped out from under me by great/magic weapons. With Quickblood I can re-roll my attacks, so a wiffed combat round doesn't spell the end of my character, and with Red Fury I can finally start dealing a truly threatening number of wounds.

I pay for it. I rarely ever spend less than the maximum possible points on my Lord. I'm usually clocking in at 625 points for a single model which will be killed by the first cannon ball it encounters. But I'm happy to pay those points for a model that comes with reliability. Changing or removing those key elements (Nightshroud and Quickblood, and to a lesser extent Red Fury) would completely kill my desire to take a Vampire Lord on a Zombie Dragon, and subsequently my motivation for fielding a Vampire Counts army. I would very much not want that.

Enabling him to be a wizard at the same time really doesn't seem like an issue for me. Casting anything with more than two or three dice is just asking to have your 600+ point model sucked into the warp through a miscast, and you're stuck with the Lore of Vampires which, while nice, is hardly Purple-Sun level over-powered. You've also added more than 100 points to an already expensive model, and if you're hanging back casting spells with him, well, that's just not the most effective use of a model with 5 attacks and WS7.

And Uziel, you're thinking far too logically about Vampires. Think less like "Game of Thrones" and more like "The Avengers". Mass is only relevant to strength if you want it to be, in the WHFB universe.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
Tawg said:
Bu-wha-.. What I'm saying is that a Vampire is fulled by pure magic (Like a Z-Dragon, as you've said), and that their strength is completely independent of conventional .. reality. I would argue that a Vampire is DAMN WELL already hitting harder than their "Mass" would indicate that they are physically capable of; To imply that their mass is limiting them is just, I don't understand at all.

And by your lore assessment, no, I see no way a human could ever match an Ogre. Like literally never. Although I do think a "Heroic" type human would have a good chance against an Ogre hero. I also think a Skaven hero would have a chance against an Ogre, and they are inferior to a human (I would think), at least in mass. That last part was a joke, but really I would assume a Skaven might even be a hard fight for an Ogre depending, I mean way smaller, easier to hide, and probably using poison without needing to truly get scathing blows in, seems like it could get away with poking an Ogre.

But also you can't use Vlad as an argument in favor of being "The most powerful" vampire, because they most certainly do not properly represent characters from books in the game. Ever. Just period. If they did, they would be far beyond any other logically balanced character, IMO. What they do do is make thematic hero/lord choices, with a selection of unique special rules that allows them to do things not normally allowed, under the guise of being epic heroes(/villains).

I don't think Red Fury/Quick Blood needs to be justified by the fluff though, and I most certainly do not think that fluff typically limits the possibilities in a game world. Sure they may traditionally be "Bloodline specific," but that's only until a writer finds it convenient to break that unwritten coven. People always end up making grossly off the wall hybrid characters combining elements of thing that "Don't belong together" as long as it suits their need to make a story.

Besides, Vlad quite literally couldn't have had Red Fury when it never existed before, so it's a bit silly to argue against previous Army books not including it. Perhaps they never thought of it before, but would have gladly given it to "Young" Vlad when he was still the primer Lord. I think he still might be, but again, characters are certainly not what they use to be..

Again, I'm not arguing that his strength is less than an Ogres at all. I'm fine with them both being Strength 5 in fact, and I accept that the reason why a Vampire is stronger than his physical appearance would suggest is through ha magical change of his body.
What I don't accept however, is the notion that mas and reach would count for so little if one were to add a bit of realism to the fluff, and I certainly don't just accept the notion that a Vampire has greater mass through magic, as this notion has no basis in any fluff as far as I know, and one don't have to look far to find that this can hardly seem right, as vampires can ride horses just like humans, can walk nimbly on poor quality rooftops, can climb the same sort of features that a human can, can walk silently up creaking stairs etc, etc. If you can back the increase in mass claim up somehow, then I'd consider you argument valid.
The reason why mass is so important in any strength contest is that it grounds ones strength incredibly well, and this cannot be underestimated. Consider this. There is a reason why all combat sports have numerous and strict weight classes, and it is not because the bigger guys are always stronger.
If anyone has an interest in combat sports here, you know that the lower weight classes are typically a lot faster than the bigger ones, yet no one in their right mind would sanction a fight between the best light weight against the likes of tyson in his glory days. Hell, even a 10 lbs difference is a huge advantage, and my point is simply that an Ogre Tyrants two tonnes, incredible reach and not to mention a weapon that would be next to impossible to avoid or parry (great weapon or not) does not count for much in the game, but if you had to consider this from a fluff perspective, then it would be a whole other deal.

Skaven and human heroes vs an Ogre Hero (assuming Bruiser type here) would in my book be roughly the same scenario as a human soldier vs an ogre bull. However, as heroes are known to carry magical weapons and other odd-swinging items such as poison, then offcourse this could swings the odds more in their favor, but I still think an ogre bull would have the odds very much on his side if any sort of "realism" were relevant.

I think Vlad from a stat perspective and general power level of his gear etc, represents how he was rather well in fact. The issue in my book isn't that dear old Vlad is not powerful enough in the rules, rather that because of how the overall synergy of the 8 ed book is made, nearly everyone makes Red Fury+Quickblood Vampires with magical weapons etc, and thus he fares poorly in comparison. It s not that Vlad is poor, rather that the above mentioned combination, often combined with a LVL 4 wizard too boot, allows one to create Vampires that far exceeds any of the special characters ever made in and VD ed, and thus puts them all to shame by default.
When the "standard" vampire lord on the battlefield can on average slay a dragon in one turn without taking even a wound, that too me spells "up yours Abhorash!", and then he is a level 4 wizard as well (something I hardly think Abhorash ever came close to), then my point is that the latest book has spoiled the players in the Vampire Lords department far in excess of any lore ever attributed to the warhammer vampires. He'll, all the supposedly top tier special characters look like chumps in comparison.
Again, I'm not arguing against their justification in the list from a gaming perspective, as we all know we need something to compensate for the rather poor Core options, but my point is that these kind of vampires are not your "average vampire lords", rather that one has through this book been granted freedom to go far above and beyond the general scope of the established lore when one creates ones beloved Vampire Lord.

Not wanting to start a hybrid character discussion here, but as far as Vampires go, they only have one Sire, and this has always left me a little puzzled about how easily people accept the "hybrid" idea when it suits their needs for gaming purposes. Hybrid means a mix of two or more after all, and no fluff has indicated that two various bloodlines have come together to somehow create a blender one, nor that this is even possible for two vampires to sire a get together somehow. Bloodlines is after all back (in a fashion) in 8 ed, and if anyone has an example of a hybrid character having been made, let me know. I might have missed something somewhere.
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
Vipoid said:
Sorry if this is a silly question (I'm not an expert on Vampire Lore), but where does this come from?

I ask because, reading the fluff in the current book, I really don't get the impression that Vlad is one of the most powerful 'warrior' vampires. In fact, I'd argue that he's one of the worst.

I don't consider a good warrior one that dies in virtually every fight. It seems like the only reason he was able to rule for any length of time was his magic resurrection-ring. But, that certainly doesn't make him a good warrior - all it does is demonstrate how often he lost. :tongue:

First off, have you read the Vampire Wars trilogy for one thing?
Yes, Vlad was unfortunate on occasion (hit by cannonballs etc), but one has to keep in mind that he was very successful for hundreds of years, in keeping the largest body of backstabbing Vampires (that's including mannfred, Konrad, Posner, Pieter, etc etc) that has ever congregated in one place over a significant amount of time in line and under his thumb. They certainly didn't let him rule because he was nice. It doesn't take a genius to realize that compared to the vampire nation he created and controlled for so long, he must have been pretty dangerous and fearsome in comparison to them all.
Regarding his ring, you have to remember that this wasn't really an issue before the Vampire Wars started, so that did not play a role in keeping his position until it he was first killed, and Posner (it might have been Pieter) challenged him for control when he returned.
There is also an incident when Vlad personally fought and killed a company of mercenaries that came to collect taxes in his realm in case people forget.

I can't argue the fact that he was killed in close combat by a couple of heroic humans though, one a knights grand master and the other a grand theogonist whom sacrificed himself to do so. Was the grand theogonist possessed by the spirit of sigmar while he fought him? I honestly can't recall at this time however. My point is though, that the most heroic of humans should indeed have a fighting chance against any Vampire Lord, even though it goes without saying that the Vampire Lord should have the odds greatly in his favour...
 

Uziel

Vargheist
Aug 29, 2011
687
Just to lay the discussion dead, and to bring it all back to topic. Yes, I realize the combination is "needed" to compensate for our poor core, but at the same time I think it is sad that it is needed in the first place, cause it makes Vampire Lords nearly all the same on the gaming table, and also takes them outside the scope of the established fluff.
 

Blutsauger

Vampire Count
Apr 10, 2013
1,089
Uziel said:
The reason why mass is so important in any strength contest is that it grounds ones strength incredibly well, and this cannot be underestimated.

Well, it really can. Think about movies and comics, when superheroes pick up cars by the bonnet or rear bumper. In reality, they would just rip the rear bumper off. When Clarke Kent catches Lois Lane on the superman movie, he would have neatly sliced her into three pieces with his arms of steel. When he goes to pick up a train, he'd simply lift himself off the ground instead.

Mass in fictional universes behaves precisely how the author needs it to, and not how it should. A Vampire can lift an Ogre over his head because magic, not because physics. I'm not saying this has ever happened in the background, just using it as an example. In universes like WHFB, physics has no place.
 

Valle

Grave Guard
May 23, 2011
269
Exactly... You cant try to argue reality like physics in a world that even contains ogres and vampires to begin with... It kinda defies the point. A vampire is a much tougher oponent than an ogre, I knew that when I was 10 playing D&D and reading Dracula and WHFB havnt changed my mind. So everything is as it should be in the fantasy world that is warhammer imo.
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Apr 27, 2012
873
Uziel said:
The reason why mass is so important in any strength contest is that it grounds ones strength incredibly well, and this cannot be underestimated.

Except that it can basically be ignored entirely.

I believe you were talking earlier about WHFB sticking to physics (where possible).

Well, muscles work at a cellular level by the contraction of Actin and Myosin filaments, powered by ATP. The larger the mass of muscle, the more filaments are available, and the stronger the possible contraction.

However, if a creature dies then its cells cease respiring, meaning no more ATP to power muscular contraction.

So if a creature is still able to move, despite the notable handicap of being dead, then the mass of its muscles it irrelevant. *ALL* the power for its movement is coming from outside sources (in this case magic), making the mass of its original muscles irrelevant.

Muscle mass is only a factor if a creature is actually utilising those muscles for movement.

Uziel said:
First off, have you read the Vampire Wars trilogy for one thing?

No - hence why I said all my knowledge of Vlad's lore was based off what's in the 8th edition book.

Uziel said:
Yes, Vlad was unfortunate on occasion (hit by cannonballs etc), but one has to keep in mind that he was very successful for hundreds of years, in keeping the largest body of backstabbing Vampires (that's including mannfred, Konrad, Posner, Pieter, etc etc) that has ever congregated in one place over a significant amount of time in line and under his thumb. They certainly didn't let him rule because he was nice. It doesn't take a genius to realize that compared to the vampire nation he created and controlled for so long, he must have been pretty dangerous and fearsome in comparison to them all.

But that's only one possibility.

Surely it's also possible that he wasn't an amazing fighter - he was simply a good leader, or excelled at manipulating/controlling other vampires?

I mean, most leaders aren't (or weren't) good at physical combat - they're good at being leaders. They might be good at inspiring people, good tacticians etc. - there are many ways a leader can stay in power, without ever having to rely on physical combat.


Uziel said:
Regarding his ring, you have to remember that this wasn't really an issue before the Vampire Wars started, so that did not play a role in keeping his position until it he was first killed, and Posner (it might have been Pieter) challenged him for control when he returned.
There is also an incident when Vlad personally fought and killed a company of mercenaries that came to collect taxes in his realm in case people forget.

Were these Vampire mercenaries come to kill him, or just humans?

If they were humans, then I imagine most vampires could have killed them.

I mean, there's a difference between being good in combat (all vampires are good in combat), and being good in combat compared to other vampires.

Uziel said:
I can't argue the fact that he was killed in close combat by a couple of heroic humans though, one a knights grand master and the other a grand theogonist whom sacrificed himself to do so. Was the grand theogonist possessed by the spirit of sigmar while he fought him? I honestly can't recall at this time however. My point is though, that the most heroic of humans should indeed have a fighting chance against any Vampire Lord, even though it goes without saying that the Vampire Lord should have the odds greatly in his favour...

But that's the thing - that's what makes me think vlad isn't good in combat - and certainly doesn't represent the peak of Vampire combat capabilities.

Would a Blood Dragon or Strigoi have died so easily to those men?
 

Valle

Grave Guard
May 23, 2011
269
Uziel... Even if you want to add realism, your point about combat sports and weight classes are non valid, because they are... well... sports and have rules. In a real life fight there is no rules and being faster than your oponent is vital since if would allow you to place a solid strike to the thoat, eye gauge or other soft points. Power and speed wins over mass and reach any day. Just youtube stan lee's superhumans and watch a monk half my size make a 1" punch that would do more damage than a car hitting you at 30 mph. But as I wrote earlier, reality shouldnt even enter this discussion, its a world where dragons are a common sight for pete's sake!.
 

Tawg

Vampire Count
True Blood
Jan 16, 2012
1,130
Vipoid said:
The most common complaints I get are:

- Too hard to kill, and can solo entire units
- Nightshroud is overpowered
- They can heal
- Red Fury is overpowered
- The fact that the VL can be a Lv4 wizard is unfair.
- Getting 100pts of Vampire Powers in addition to their wargear is unfair - especially since Chaos Lords only get 50pts
- Getting rerolls from Quickblood/Infinite-Hatred is unfair
- Red Fury is Overpowered
- Beguile is too cheap

I like that you list "Is OP" twice, reminds me of that time in Blazing Saddles when the applicants to join the bad guys list "Rape" twice on their list of credentials, following it up with "We really like rape."

I can imagine players saying "We really think RF is OP!"

But really, I would say this tread has been derailed, but since you're still responding also; Maybe you should just change the tread title and have it moved :pumpkin:
 

Vipoid

Necromancer
Apr 27, 2012
873
Tawg said:
Vipoid said:
The most common complaints I get are:

- Too hard to kill, and can solo entire units
- Nightshroud is overpowered
- They can heal
- Red Fury is overpowered
- The fact that the VL can be a Lv4 wizard is unfair.
- Getting 100pts of Vampire Powers in addition to their wargear is unfair - especially since Chaos Lords only get 50pts
- Getting rerolls from Quickblood/Infinite-Hatred is unfair
- Red Fury is Overpowered
- Beguile is too cheap

I like that you list "Is OP" twice, reminds me of that time in Blazing Saddles when the applicants to join the bad guys list "Rape" twice on their list of credentials, following it up with "We really like rape."

I can imagine players saying "We really think RF is OP!"

Ah, well spotted.

Well, that was a genuine typo, but it's probably a reasonable reflection of my friends' feelings towards Red Fury. ;)
 

Narenzade

Wight King
Mar 22, 2012
465
- Too hard to kill, and can solo entire units
Fact, except that too hard to kill part. They're pretty hard to kill, but too hard? Nah.

- Nightshroud is overpowered
False, I'd rather spend 35-30 less points and get a 2+ ward save against the first hit or Dragonhelm.

- They can heal
Fact

- Red Fury is overpowered
Balanced because our troops lack true killing power of other armies. But, it is a godly power.

- The fact that the VL can be a Lv4 wizard is unfair.
Our Ubar LAWRD is subject to miscasts? WHAT AN ADVANTAGE!

- Getting 100pts of Vampire Powers in addition to their wargear is unfair - especially since Chaos Lords only get 50pts
So? I want cannon/chariots with a ward save, but I don't get those.

- Getting rerolls from Quickblood/Infinite-Hatred is unfair
So Always Strike First and Hatred is unfair? OMFG HIGH ELVES, DARK ELVES, BEASTMEN OP!!11!11!1!1!!

- Red Fury is Overpowered
See above.

- Beguile is too cheap
Nah, you still have a chance to succeed against the power and you can use your BSB reroll. Cry me a river.
 

El Syf

Vargheist
Dec 4, 2011
648
Eastbourne
Red fury counts towards half a vampire lords total vampiric power allowance and you have to inflict an unsaved wound to benefit from it which isn't that easy if your taking on another lord with a high AS and decent ward save.
A vampire lord (especially a Necrarch one) has every right to be a level 4 wizard. You could argue if we still had proper bloodlines the L4 wizard and combat monster would not be able to exist, but we don't so aren't we lucky?
I think being able to spend as much on vampiric powers as we can on magic items is fair, it helps to get across that vampires are otherworldy beyond just having a magic sword. Chaos Lords are still at the end of the day human, Vampires are far beyond human!
As for beguile it's never worked that well for me, as my opponent usually has some runic standard that negates it's effects.
 
Jun 24, 2012
118
The reason why everyone takes quickblood and red fury is not because it is cheap. It is because we desperately need killing power across the whole army. We also need him as protected as possible, unlike most other armies, who can stand to lose their (200 point less costly) general.

It sounds like the OP is a better overall general than his friends. I mean this as no offense. He is not necessarily smarter or more cunning, it could just be the fact that he, for instance, finds time to peruse forums like this one for smart ideas and they do not. I like Tawg's idea. Swap armies with them for the next few battles. When their vamp lord gets crumbled because of a bad charge, or unwisely gets sucked into a magical miscast, they might have a better idea on why the OP's general is doing so much better than their own.

Meanwhile the OP should, like he does here, go to the forums of their army and find some smart ideas and use them against his them.
 

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