Tawg said:
Bu-wha-.. What I'm saying is that a Vampire is fulled by pure magic (Like a Z-Dragon, as you've said), and that their strength is completely independent of conventional .. reality. I would argue that a Vampire is DAMN WELL already hitting harder than their "Mass" would indicate that they are physically capable of; To imply that their mass is limiting them is just, I don't understand at all.
And by your lore assessment, no, I see no way a human could ever match an Ogre. Like literally never. Although I do think a "Heroic" type human would have a good chance against an Ogre hero. I also think a Skaven hero would have a chance against an Ogre, and they are inferior to a human (I would think), at least in mass. That last part was a joke, but really I would assume a Skaven might even be a hard fight for an Ogre depending, I mean way smaller, easier to hide, and probably using poison without needing to truly get scathing blows in, seems like it could get away with poking an Ogre.
But also you can't use Vlad as an argument in favor of being "The most powerful" vampire, because they most certainly do not properly represent characters from books in the game. Ever. Just period. If they did, they would be far beyond any other logically balanced character, IMO. What they do do is make thematic hero/lord choices, with a selection of unique special rules that allows them to do things not normally allowed, under the guise of being epic heroes(/villains).
I don't think Red Fury/Quick Blood needs to be justified by the fluff though, and I most certainly do not think that fluff typically limits the possibilities in a game world. Sure they may traditionally be "Bloodline specific," but that's only until a writer finds it convenient to break that unwritten coven. People always end up making grossly off the wall hybrid characters combining elements of thing that "Don't belong together" as long as it suits their need to make a story.
Besides, Vlad quite literally couldn't have had Red Fury when it never existed before, so it's a bit silly to argue against previous Army books not including it. Perhaps they never thought of it before, but would have gladly given it to "Young" Vlad when he was still the primer Lord. I think he still might be, but again, characters are certainly not what they use to be..
Again, I'm not arguing that his strength is less than an Ogres at all. I'm fine with them both being Strength 5 in fact, and I accept that the reason why a Vampire is stronger than his physical appearance would suggest is through ha magical change of his body.
What I don't accept however, is the notion that mas and reach would count for so little if one were to add a bit of realism to the fluff, and I certainly don't just accept the notion that a Vampire has greater mass through magic, as this notion has no basis in any fluff as far as I know, and one don't have to look far to find that this can hardly seem right, as vampires can ride horses just like humans, can walk nimbly on poor quality rooftops, can climb the same sort of features that a human can, can walk silently up creaking stairs etc, etc. If you can back the increase in mass claim up somehow, then I'd consider you argument valid.
The reason why mass is so important in any strength contest is that it grounds ones strength incredibly well, and this cannot be underestimated. Consider this. There is a reason why all combat sports have numerous and strict weight classes, and it is not because the bigger guys are always stronger.
If anyone has an interest in combat sports here, you know that the lower weight classes are typically a lot faster than the bigger ones, yet no one in their right mind would sanction a fight between the best light weight against the likes of tyson in his glory days. Hell, even a 10 lbs difference is a huge advantage, and my point is simply that an Ogre Tyrants two tonnes, incredible reach and not to mention a weapon that would be next to impossible to avoid or parry (great weapon or not) does not count for much in the game, but if you had to consider this from a fluff perspective, then it would be a whole other deal.
Skaven and human heroes vs an Ogre Hero (assuming Bruiser type here) would in my book be roughly the same scenario as a human soldier vs an ogre bull. However, as heroes are known to carry magical weapons and other odd-swinging items such as poison, then offcourse this could swings the odds more in their favor, but I still think an ogre bull would have the odds very much on his side if any sort of "realism" were relevant.
I think Vlad from a stat perspective and general power level of his gear etc, represents how he was rather well in fact. The issue in my book isn't that dear old Vlad is not powerful enough in the rules, rather that because of how the overall synergy of the 8 ed book is made, nearly everyone makes Red Fury+Quickblood Vampires with magical weapons etc, and thus he fares poorly in comparison. It s not that Vlad is poor, rather that the above mentioned combination, often combined with a LVL 4 wizard too boot, allows one to create Vampires that far exceeds any of the special characters ever made in and VD ed, and thus puts them all to shame by default.
When the "standard" vampire lord on the battlefield can on average slay a dragon in one turn without taking even a wound, that too me spells "up yours Abhorash!", and then he is a level 4 wizard as well (something I hardly think Abhorash ever came close to), then my point is that the latest book has spoiled the players in the Vampire Lords department far in excess of any lore ever attributed to the warhammer vampires. He'll, all the supposedly top tier special characters look like chumps in comparison.
Again, I'm not arguing against their justification in the list from a gaming perspective, as we all know we need something to compensate for the rather poor Core options, but my point is that these kind of vampires are not your "average vampire lords", rather that one has through this book been granted freedom to go far above and beyond the general scope of the established lore when one creates ones beloved Vampire Lord.
Not wanting to start a hybrid character discussion here, but as far as Vampires go, they only have one Sire, and this has always left me a little puzzled about how easily people accept the "hybrid" idea when it suits their needs for gaming purposes. Hybrid means a mix of two or more after all, and no fluff has indicated that two various bloodlines have come together to somehow create a blender one, nor that this is even possible for two vampires to sire a get together somehow. Bloodlines is after all back (in a fashion) in 8 ed, and if anyone has an example of a hybrid character having been made, let me know. I might have missed something somewhere.