Shareya said:
Well, yes. But it'd be no more devastating than living troops doing so. A cannon ball is a cannon ball, and will do the same amount of damage whether it's fired by a human, a dwarf or a zombie.
Vampires and stealing engineers
- Thread starter harbinger
- Start date
-
The masquerade of murder returns! A new game of Vampires Amongst Us has begun. Unmask the killers, trust no one, and try to survive the night. Find out more and sign up now!
Well, yes. But it'd be no more devastating than living troops doing so. A cannon ball is a cannon ball, and will do the same amount of damage whether it's fired by a human, a dwarf or a zombie.
harbinger said:
Vampire do use them, Remember Count Noctilus?
Just in game terms we have a very set list on what we can take to make all the forces different.
Same as you would have levies, necromantic constructs etc.
If you go right back to Warhammer Armies: Undead, there were Skeleton Archers, and Screaming Skull Catapults, so the Undead in general are more than capable of using ranged weapons, and certain war engines.
I can't envisage them using artillery though, since they really wouldn't have the necessary dexterity, or coordination to load cannons or mortars, and light fuses. They would be just about capable of loading a skull onto a primitive catapult, and that's about it.
I can't envisage them using artillery though, since they really wouldn't have the necessary dexterity, or coordination to load cannons or mortars, and light fuses. They would be just about capable of loading a skull onto a primitive catapult, and that's about it.
Ordo Cruentus
Order amongst the Dead
I think intelligent Undead using ranged weapons would be fine. If I saw a Lahmian using a pistol, that wouldn't raise any eyebrows from me.
But I think giving a bunch of zombies and skeletons handguns would be more dangerous to your own troops, than the enemy.
However, some mercenaries, or blood swains would be just fine.
But I think giving a bunch of zombies and skeletons handguns would be more dangerous to your own troops, than the enemy.
However, some mercenaries, or blood swains would be just fine.
I honestly think Vampires would probably be the leaders in scientific Discovery in the WarHammer World. They have unlimited time and energy to devote to the study and less morals to impede their progress. On top of that the ability to infiltrate, seduce, and kill enemy scientist makes it easy for them to steal secrets. Would every vampire do it? Probably not...
On a related note, how the heck do vampire counts siege castles besides having the odd giant bat fly over the wall? We don't seem to have anything that could break down castle wall easily.
On a related note, how the heck do vampire counts siege castles besides having the odd giant bat fly over the wall? We don't seem to have anything that could break down castle wall easily.
theknightofjello said:
In the von Carstein trilogy there was those bone siege tower things and any idiot Lord could get a catapult I'm sure.
As for leaders in scientific research, I sort of disagree, I tend to think that vampire's would have a hard time keeping up with technological advances as they get older. Their minds still somewhat trapped in the way of thinking from their own era. This wouldn't apply to arcane research of course.
But that's just a personal view.
Vengeance Crusader
Grave Guard
It depends on if you want to consider some of the old fluff cannon (or more importantly if the GW designers do!), to do with the Von Carstiens using LIVING citizens on their lands to use handguns, bows etc.
Also, in the Storm of Chaos campaign book the Von Carsetien army list allowed you to take skeletons with crossbows...
...And then there was the Zombie Pirate army list that had zombies with handguns- the explanation being that the head vampire enchanted his minions with an enchantment that alllowed them to load and fire a gun (akin to the TKs), this army list also had Cannons, including a MASSIVE gun that was the same size as the gun that the Ogres make use of...
But I am unsure if any of this is now 'official' fluff or not.
Also, in the Storm of Chaos campaign book the Von Carsetien army list allowed you to take skeletons with crossbows...
...And then there was the Zombie Pirate army list that had zombies with handguns- the explanation being that the head vampire enchanted his minions with an enchantment that alllowed them to load and fire a gun (akin to the TKs), this army list also had Cannons, including a MASSIVE gun that was the same size as the gun that the Ogres make use of...
But I am unsure if any of this is now 'official' fluff or not.
The most official fluff I can think about is that a risen skeleton or zombie does much operate on instincts. Meaning if you raise bowmen they can use the bow just by their knowledge they received from life. But if you raise a group of peasants all they can do is claw and bite and use some basic tools.
Vengeance Crusader said:
I've no idea if it's still canon but it would be bloody stupid if it wasn't (which wouldn't surprise me with some of GW's decisions).
Von Carsteins I imagine could easily have some living peasants under their command just as Lahmians would have a few swains.
In my own fluff piece, my main character was pretty happy to have a mercenary cannon given that he was gunning for Lizardmen. he even gave the mercenaries the go-ahead to shoot through his weaker troops when they were engaged fighting big monsters.
If any army would be okay with a chance of hitting their own men, it would be Vampire Counts who don't care or Skaven who WANT to thin the herd.
If any army would be okay with a chance of hitting their own men, it would be Vampire Counts who don't care or Skaven who WANT to thin the herd.
It also depends on the vampires in question.
I can see Von Carstein, Lahmian and even Blood Dragon at a Stretch using war machines but not Strigoi or Necrarch, hell the last likely does not even consider it due to their belief that magic is superior.
I can see Von Carstein, Lahmian and even Blood Dragon at a Stretch using war machines but not Strigoi or Necrarch, hell the last likely does not even consider it due to their belief that magic is superior.
Would Blood Dragons really use war machines? Wouldn't this violate their martial code and sense of honour? I'd have to be persuaded that a Blood Dragon force would include war machines of any sort. Von Carsteins would probably be the most likely of any, particularly if they are employing militia forces from Sylvania to operate them, but even then, they would be more primitive war machines, rather than artillery or more complext war engines.
Depends on the individual Blood Dragon's beliefs I suppose, the more tactically sound ones would probably use the advantage, even Bretonnia Knights use ranged weaponary...just not personally (delegating ftw!).
Agreed with von Carsteins being the most likely however even if they had kidnapped Engineers (or even sired some!) these men of the new science would utterly lack the resources of the Nuln school of Gunnery (or any Imperial Organisation really) so their contraptions would indeed be less advanced and probably not as well maintained.
Sylvania is quite backwards afterall.
Probably older model cannons and trebuchets etc
They would and have been seen to do so in the books, however they don't use the more modern ones.
We are talking things like Catapults and Trebuckets.
If the engineers that were paid for or turned had to make the equipment if they did not have their own from their travels they could still build it up to the same standard.
You have to remember they have only become more powerful and gifted after having been turned, they will have all the funding and materials needed, it will just require a time investment, something that vampires don't lack.
Sylvania would have nothing to do with it, as that regions people are less advanced the men creating the weapons would not be, bit like the Roman's building new age building across western Europe back when it was in the grip of the Gauls.
The people were not as advanced but it made no difference as the learning did not come from them.
We are talking things like Catapults and Trebuckets.
If the engineers that were paid for or turned had to make the equipment if they did not have their own from their travels they could still build it up to the same standard.
You have to remember they have only become more powerful and gifted after having been turned, they will have all the funding and materials needed, it will just require a time investment, something that vampires don't lack.
Sylvania would have nothing to do with it, as that regions people are less advanced the men creating the weapons would not be, bit like the Roman's building new age building across western Europe back when it was in the grip of the Gauls.
The people were not as advanced but it made no difference as the learning did not come from them.
The romans had an Empire backing their projects, a vampire does not.
No matter their time or personal wealth they would run into logistical and skill problems in building and running the machines, few mercs would willingly work for vampires afterall
For the von Carsteins Sylvania has everything to do with it. It lacks the natural resources or skilled populace to effectively construct and use the most modern weapons.
Also it would be hard to secretely gather many such machines.
Not impossible ofc just hard and in the end as beings of magic relying on the arcane might be easier and more efficent.
Just my input, take it or leave it. Forgice any spelling or grammer, my phone sucks kn this site
No matter their time or personal wealth they would run into logistical and skill problems in building and running the machines, few mercs would willingly work for vampires afterall
For the von Carsteins Sylvania has everything to do with it. It lacks the natural resources or skilled populace to effectively construct and use the most modern weapons.
Also it would be hard to secretely gather many such machines.
Not impossible ofc just hard and in the end as beings of magic relying on the arcane might be easier and more efficent.
Just my input, take it or leave it. Forgice any spelling or grammer, my phone sucks kn this site
This was not a literal example as I am drawing a line between a make believe fantasy game setting supernatural creature against a historical nation.
The Vampire themselves can have a entire nation at their back, The Land of the Dead, Sylvania or smaller regions such as Silver Pinicle, The Vampire Coast or any number of fortresses or power bases they may have.
Now granted very few people would work for them but an Engineer who was turned would more than have the skill set so this is not an issue and you are forgetting that engineers learn this skill themselves, nothing stops the already dead from doing it themselves over time.
The Gunner School of nuln may be the best but they are not the only.
Such machines can be created, after all if you possess the knowledge and have a tireless work force the materials would also prove easy to gather.
Also you have the option of it being sold to them as well by the chaos dwarfs, they do make things for anyone and even made Mannfreds sword at his request.
At the days end it won't be easy but these are rare machines in the first place so other more crude war machines like trebucket will be allot more common but it still remains a possibility.
The Vampire themselves can have a entire nation at their back, The Land of the Dead, Sylvania or smaller regions such as Silver Pinicle, The Vampire Coast or any number of fortresses or power bases they may have.
Now granted very few people would work for them but an Engineer who was turned would more than have the skill set so this is not an issue and you are forgetting that engineers learn this skill themselves, nothing stops the already dead from doing it themselves over time.
The Gunner School of nuln may be the best but they are not the only.
Such machines can be created, after all if you possess the knowledge and have a tireless work force the materials would also prove easy to gather.
Also you have the option of it being sold to them as well by the chaos dwarfs, they do make things for anyone and even made Mannfreds sword at his request.
At the days end it won't be easy but these are rare machines in the first place so other more crude war machines like trebucket will be allot more common but it still remains a possibility.
It's true that we couldn't rule out the scenario that you've put forward regarding a sired engineer, and there is the possibility to create more exotic machinery. It is, however, even for Von Carsteins more difficult than I think might be supposed to obtain these materials. It might be possible to capture an sire an engineer, but Sylvania is surrounded by relatively poor regions of the Empire. Only Averland is a province within close proximity which has any significant wealth, and this wealth is not really directed into war machines. It's Nuln and Altdorf where such materials are most likely to reside, and these are not readily accessible to a vampire.
It is possible to scavenge materials from battle of course, but these would be damaged at best, and there's no guarantee that they could be restored. Still, it couldn't be ruled out, but such artillery is something I'd expect to see very rarely on the field of battle in any kind of vampire army.
It is possible to scavenge materials from battle of course, but these would be damaged at best, and there's no guarantee that they could be restored. Still, it couldn't be ruled out, but such artillery is something I'd expect to see very rarely on the field of battle in any kind of vampire army.
Completely agree. Getting a small number of knowledgeable scientists/engineers would not be beyond a sneaky vampire Lord but it's the resources to create, maintain and run the thing which would hamper them.
Dear Lord my post is awful, stupid Nokia.
The materials are not as hard as you would think, any good smith can manage its creation and mining is not a problem as under frequently build high quality fortresses so mining is not beyond them.
The Lure of wealth or immortality is more than enough to tempt most men, men of science are no different.
You forget as well the entire eastern boarder to Sylavania is mountainous filled with old abandoned dwarf posts and mines, they have the geographical wealth as well, you have to remember they are looking for iron, not gold and silver, its mines are not nearly as rare.
Weapons taken from the battlefield is also another option which would likely be fire with perhaps damaged or destroyed wooden carriages which can be repaired or replaced, its only the gun itself that is of import.
Even if they were melted down and reforged it would at least supply the raw resource.
So we have established they have the raw resource, the knowledge base and man power.
Maintaining them is not all that hard, look at the old Ogre ones... Cannons are very tough and built to last in all conditions for hundreds of years without difficulty.
However the main issue for the Vampires in this case would be acquiring the materials to make the powder... In any sizable quantity it would be extremely difficult so smugglers, bandits and battlefield pillaging will likely be the best option here.
The Lure of wealth or immortality is more than enough to tempt most men, men of science are no different.
You forget as well the entire eastern boarder to Sylavania is mountainous filled with old abandoned dwarf posts and mines, they have the geographical wealth as well, you have to remember they are looking for iron, not gold and silver, its mines are not nearly as rare.
Weapons taken from the battlefield is also another option which would likely be fire with perhaps damaged or destroyed wooden carriages which can be repaired or replaced, its only the gun itself that is of import.
Even if they were melted down and reforged it would at least supply the raw resource.
So we have established they have the raw resource, the knowledge base and man power.
Maintaining them is not all that hard, look at the old Ogre ones... Cannons are very tough and built to last in all conditions for hundreds of years without difficulty.
However the main issue for the Vampires in this case would be acquiring the materials to make the powder... In any sizable quantity it would be extremely difficult so smugglers, bandits and battlefield pillaging will likely be the best option here.
I can't see vampires leading that many expeditions up into the mountains. For a start, it would be hard not to attract attention from the various Orc and Goblin forces lurking in the mountains, and it's also not part of the Von Carstein grand plan to make excursions up into the mountains. Their interests are in the Empire and the surrounding area, so while it's plausible that an excursion could be made into mountains, it's not likely to be a common occurrence in my opinion.
Metal could certainly be melted down, and smithing is a possibility at a Von Carstein castle, but again, finding a quality blacksmith wouldn't be that easy. Locally, smithing isn't a common trade, so it would be a case of going further afield. It's, therefore, another possibility, but it's not going to be an overly common occurrence.
Essentially, I don't think that there's much disagreement between any of us here. It's more just a case of debating the probability of particular events happening within the narrative which is constructed by GW.
Metal could certainly be melted down, and smithing is a possibility at a Von Carstein castle, but again, finding a quality blacksmith wouldn't be that easy. Locally, smithing isn't a common trade, so it would be a case of going further afield. It's, therefore, another possibility, but it's not going to be an overly common occurrence.
Essentially, I don't think that there's much disagreement between any of us here. It's more just a case of debating the probability of particular events happening within the narrative which is constructed by GW.
Vampires have done it s great number of times, there is even documented attacks in the Vampire Wars, and in the Time of Legend Books on dwarf holds in the mountains not to mention those vampires that live in them.
You have to remember, they will go wherever they feel.
Konnrad when he was sane also made attacks in the mountains so they do, just because they are vampires does not give them dislike of mountains, they just prefer the low lands where the majority of the human population live but if its the means to an end they won't bat an eyelid at it.
Blacksmiths are allot more easy to get hold of than Engineers, the trade is allot easier to learn and some vampires especially Blood Dragons are smiths themselves as they make their own armour and maintain their own weapons believing that they must do so as a warrior and not trusting others to do it.
You have to remember these are vampires who were human, they only gain more power and knowledge with time, they suddenly don't enter the dark ages when they become undead and certainly don't become unable to gain materials, hire people or hunted in the streets.
Vampires live peacefully known in Altdorf as they do in many other cities, Geneieve is Dating the Emperors son in a round about way as he has a crush on her, The Crescent Moon is a Undead Bar in the street of 100 taverns which vampires are nearly always in rubbing shoulders with humans who do not bat an eyelid, hell if we go back into those books there are even mortal descendants of the Carstein line in Altdorf as well.
Either way the undead are allot more resourceful than people give them credit for.
You have to remember, they will go wherever they feel.
Konnrad when he was sane also made attacks in the mountains so they do, just because they are vampires does not give them dislike of mountains, they just prefer the low lands where the majority of the human population live but if its the means to an end they won't bat an eyelid at it.
Blacksmiths are allot more easy to get hold of than Engineers, the trade is allot easier to learn and some vampires especially Blood Dragons are smiths themselves as they make their own armour and maintain their own weapons believing that they must do so as a warrior and not trusting others to do it.
You have to remember these are vampires who were human, they only gain more power and knowledge with time, they suddenly don't enter the dark ages when they become undead and certainly don't become unable to gain materials, hire people or hunted in the streets.
Vampires live peacefully known in Altdorf as they do in many other cities, Geneieve is Dating the Emperors son in a round about way as he has a crush on her, The Crescent Moon is a Undead Bar in the street of 100 taverns which vampires are nearly always in rubbing shoulders with humans who do not bat an eyelid, hell if we go back into those books there are even mortal descendants of the Carstein line in Altdorf as well.
Either way the undead are allot more resourceful than people give them credit for.
I agree that vampires mix with human society more than might be realised, but that doesn't really help with obtaining the necessary resources to build modern artillery pieces in Sylvania .
Blood Dragons may well have the knowledge and capability to smith, but forging their own swords and armour was their forte, not constructing cannons. They don't have the skill level to achieve this in most cases. Neither do most blacksmiths, incidentally, which brings us neatly back to the start of the debate about the need for engineer, or someone else with the specific skill knowledge for such items to be forged.
.Blood Dragons may well have the knowledge and capability to smith, but forging their own swords and armour was their forte, not constructing cannons. They don't have the skill level to achieve this in most cases. Neither do most blacksmiths, incidentally, which brings us neatly back to the start of the debate about the need for engineer, or someone else with the specific skill knowledge for such items to be forged.
Micheal Valdros
Black Knight
That sort of low level technology isn't in dispute. That said, it wouldn't exactly be original, since that idea has been stolen by various authors and screen writers down the years 
.
.