Vamps vs Bretons

[Pyrlo]

hey,

Im going to face a Bretons army and dont know what I should do. My experience against Bretons is small so I want you to share your experience with me
Lets talk about 2.000 points..
I cannot imagine what to do against 3 or 4 big units of knights with heroes and strong banners.
I dont think I can do much to prevent a charge as the whole army is so fucking fast. a charge will always kill a lot and heroes in the unit will in most cases not survive this.
I could take mass magic, but if he gets some scrolls or dispel in general, it won't do so much an he will still be in close combat after 2 rounds - so cant damage him with magic anymore.
then his knights are all some kind of immortal: 2+ armor save - ok I can go for grave guard with killing blow. but a 6 is still a small chance, regarding that i will attack last in almost every cases and therefore not have many attacks.

and thats almost it. just mass immortal knights with very very hard charges and I cannot imagine what can counter them out.

any tips what to do against bretons?

 

[TMS]

Hi,

My own experience against Bretonnians is probably even smaller than your own so I can only theorize in a rather basic way. The most important thing to my eyes would be to make absolutely sure that he does not get to sound off any combined charges on your units. It should not be very difficult to keep that from happening, luckily, with a cleverly placed unit of Dire Wolves right next to your infantry, for example.

Spirit Hosts might actually be of some use against them. Apart from their close combat characters and the odd magic missile you'll only need to keep an eye out for Grail Knights. Even if you find yourself charged by a character with a magic weapon, a 3-swarm unit of Hosts should be able to stand through a charge without much trouble, allowing you the counterattack.

Aim for his flanks while doing your best to stave off his combined charges. That's the best I can think of, sorry.

 

[Pyrlo]

Spirit Hosts might actually be of some use against them. Apart from their close combat characters and the odd magic missile you'll only need to keep an eye out for Grail Knights. Even if you find yourself charged by a character with a magic weapon, a 3-swarm unit of Hosts should be able to stand through a charge without much trouble, allowing you the counterattack.

yes, but this leads to the next bigproblem: no matter I will stand and counterattack. just say I do 1 or 2 wounds and he did also 1 or 2 wounds - I will lose the combat result every single round and get killed by this.
he has without problem 2 or 3 ranks, has plus 1 or 2 with standards and will alway outnumber me. so I lose the result by at least 2 or 3 each round and this makes it impossible to keep my units alive with nehek, as he does also make so much damage with the combat results.

 

[ksum]

Bretts struggle terribly against vamps.

You should beat them without any problem.

 

[TMS]

yes, but this leads to the next bigproblem: no matter I will stand and counterattack. just say I do 1 or 2 wounds and he did also 1 or 2 wounds - I will lose the combat result every single round and get killed by this.
he has without problem 2 or 3 ranks, has plus 1 or 2 with standards and will alway outnumber me. so I lose the result by at least 2 or 3 each round and this makes it impossible to keep my units alive with nehek, as he does also make so much damage with the combat results.

You'll remove his rank bonus if you manage to catch him in the flank with a unit that's at least of US5. You will also have a pretty good chance at outnumbering him if your infantry units are suitably large.

 

[Pyrlo]

Bretts struggle terribly against vamps.

You should beat them without any problem.

then please tell me which tactic I should choose that beats them without problem

 

[Da Crusha]

I would make sure that you accept the Bret charges with big infantry blocks 25+. a unit as little as 8 knights (Frontage of 3) with champ will get a whopping 8 S5 attacks and 7 S3 horse attacks due to the lance formation, and this is knights of the realm or knight errants (core troops). I locked up my opponents knights in combat and then used book of arkhan or VDM to send my blood knights into there flank and pursue into the next unit. remember after their charge they are not going to have high strength and they are not going to have so many attacks either. I used a corpse cart near by with Unholy lodestone and just kept raising my infantry block so that my opponent just stayed locked in combat until I could get my other units to hit those big beautiful flanks. I would keep characters behind the combat line so that they just keep casting IoN and ........ thats about it. I completely massacred in this game. helm of commandment helps too.

 

[tex577]

raise zombies, invocate them, van hels them and then flank with a hard unit.

Repeat for all the units

Simple as that

Has not failed me yet, just keep an eye on the pegasus knights they can be a pain in the butt.

 

[Hosko]

Bret's aren't a real threat to VC unless you play poorly.

Bret's rely on hitting hard and breaking through - if you can negate this (using some of the suggestions below) you can win quite easily.

Having played Bret's for about seven years I suggest the following:

- Use direwolves to re-direct the knight lances to prevent combo charges - a 40 point sacrifice is worth taking a lance out of position for two turns;
- Ghouls. No armour save sure, but at toughness four they will prove themselves in the following rounds of combat, plus having two attacks each.
- Skeltons are good as well, with their improved static combat res, but I find them an easier proposition to get wounds on when in combat (when playing Bret's).
- Wraiths - wraiths are awesome against Bret's as there are very few magic attacks available to the Bret's - keep them away from characters and Grail Knights and they should be fine.
- Fear and terror are a huge weakness for the Bret's - don't count on this to beat them but I have had occasions where a failed fear test has cost my Bret's the game.
- Use fell bat's to take on a trebuchet if they have one, and archers depending on your fell bat unit size.
- Fell bats are also great for march blocking
- I suggest keeping away from Black Knights - they bounce more often than not against heavy armour
- a scouting vamp can be useful against them - march blocking, raising zombies behind their lines and threatening peasants
- zombie tar pits are great (due to limited Bret attacks in turns after they charge)
- A dirty tactic which I don't really like but may be acceptable in your gaming circle - take Forbidden Lore on your lord and the lore of Metal. This is devastating against high armour save units of which Bret's have lots.
- use terrain to guard your flanks


Key points to remember:

- Knights Errant are only immune to Psych on the turn they charge - losing subsequent rounds of combat will mean that they will automatically flee if outnumbered by a fear causing enemy (unless he rolls insane courage);
- On the turn they charge, a Bret knight unit will get a lot of attacks - on the following turns they only get the front rank (7 attacks for a base unit)
- If peasant units are outside of 6" of a knight or 12" of the general they will be taking a fear test on Ld 5 - use this to your advantage
- Bret knightly ward saves are best against str 5 or greater (5+ ward vs str 5 or greater, 6+ ward str 4 or less
- Vc will win a war of attrition against Bret's, you can replace your losses, they cannot
- Bret magic defence is expensive
- You will have magic dominance
- Bret bowmen have a 30" range and he will use these to try and remove ancillary units - wolves and bats

Just some pointers to consider.

Cheers,
Hosko

 

[Pyrlo]

thx for the great tips!

what would you say what amount of points the heroes should take?
prefer cheap heroes for more units or make sure they will have a great number of succesful neheks?

 

[doombunny666]

right id say this 1st

vamp with scout and sceptre de noiroit raise dead also raise a massive zombie screen about 14" ahaed of your line this will block shooting and also his charge then unless he gets a very good pursuit role you get the charge another thing to remember is our answer to grails blood knights maybe the mightest cav in the game and certainly the coolest they should rip things up oh yeah and the black coach or a varghulf can either impact cavalry to death or terror bomb them


possibly consider an extra turns magic if they stop to pray they probably will

 

[Fodderboy]

Bretonnians don't have much in the way of offensive magic. Usually they will have 2 level 1 damsels with the mirror (dispel plus do a wound), the cup of extra dispel dice, and a scroll. They also confer MR1 to the unit.

Ignore the peasants initially.

Summon speed bumps to divert them and open up flanks.

Use bats to march block - even with 2 wounds they are US 1 each, so -1 to shoot. They'll last for ages.

Do NOT think that spirit hosts or wriaths will hold them up for any length of time - 9 knights with a unit standard have CR 4 on anything but large infantry blocks.

Large blocks and heavy hitters in the flank are the way to go (as per usual)

Just be aware of the 16" charge range for all of his cav.

It's doable, but I"m still having a rough time. Good luck!

 

[Anneruon]

Also watch out for pegasus knights, i've seen them divert a unit of blood knights for the first 4 turns of a game before, making very good use of the BK frenzy. though the pegasus knights were eventually caught and completely slaughtered, it essentially removed the BK from the game allowing the Bretonnians to pick and choose their combats therefore allowing double charges etc...

On a seperate note, if his lord challenges you to a duel then refuse, chances are he has virtue of confidence (re-rolls to hit and to wound rolls in duel) and some nasty sword. alternatively if his lord doesnt challenge and is in base contact with a vampire then challenge with your unit champion since he probably has virtue of audacity (re-roll to hit and to wound rolls against higher strength opponents) along with some nasty sword. usually either sword of the quest (hand weapon or great weapon, ignores armour saves), sword of the ladys champion(strength is one higher than opponents toughness) or sword of heroes ~(vs toughnes 5 or higher adds +1 strength and causes D3 wounds)

hope this helps

 

[dabber]

what would you say what amount of points the heroes should take?

I cannot think of any situation when the max power build of VC is other than tons in character. 1000+ if not 1200. You take less points in characters so your opponent won't hate your guts, but if you just want to win, you load up and should crush the enemy.

 

[darebear]

Dabber is correct. It all depends on what type of game you want to play. A casty lord with 5 PD, wight king and one or two necromancers is not over the top (9 PD) and 600-800 points depending on gear. That is what I consider a friendly game and without cheese.