Vargheists anti-frenzy strategy

[Demian]

Hello all!

I know there are a lot of ways to prevent Vargheists botching their frenzy check and charging something you don't want, like moonwalking.

However I was wondering: if you have a unit of say.. Ghouls in front of your Vargheists and they are forced to charge an enemy beyond them...

Can you choose to make it a "ground charge" instead of a Flying one to make it fail? Or are you compelled to always fly when charging?

Maybe this isn't ground breaking... but could save their hides sometime!

 

[Corien Sumatris]

I don't think so. I think you are required to fly (unless something is preventing you from flying). You can't simply ignore a special rule that a model has, otherwise people would ignore frenzy until the turn that they want to charge. Now I don't have my rule book with me so I can't do research on it right now but if no one else has come up with page numbers by the time I get home then I'd be happy to do some research for you!!

 

[Demian]

I don't have my book around either, but I remember something like pursuing and fleeing was made on the ground... so maybe there is a way to make ground charges... just for the fun of it! (OR! to make a Terror charge that won't get that Terrorgheist killed by completing it if they pass their Ld test)

 

[Mad 'At]

After looking at the rules pretty quickly I'd say you could do just that.

Page 70 BRB, Fly, Moving Flyers, 2nd paragraph

Units made up entirely of models that can fly can move or charge normally on the ground, using their Movement value, or instead choose to fly.

Page 70 BRB, Frenzy, Berserk Rage, 1st paragraph

If, during the charge sub-phase, a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so unless a leadership test is passed. If the test is failed, the frenzied unit must declare a charge against the nearest viable enemy.

So if you fail the test you have to declare a charge against the nearest viable enemy, lets say an enemy beyond some ghouls. After the charge is declared you can choose to use you ground movement and therefore get a failed charge automatically. You still forfill everything that is required by the Frenzy rules (declaring a charge). The one little gap I can see is that it is not specified by the Fly rules when you have to choose whether to use ground or fly movement but it shouldn’t make too big a difference I think.

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Huh! good call Mad 'At!

 

[Mad 'At]

Thanks, though I'm not a 100% sure it's right. It feels like I'm missing something.

Anyways, whilst we are discussing frenzy I'd like to add another issue with it. This one has been up for the discussion on the Swedish forum SWFBR but I was not pleased with the conclusion made there so I'll bring it up here too. For reasons I can't remember I have withheld posting about it but now seams like an appropriate time.

Quite simply. Can you avoid taking the Ld test with a frenzied unit by declaring a charge against a unit that is not the closest enemy?

 

[Corien Sumatris]

Well it doesn't state at the start of the Declare Chagres phase. I mean, I would think so becuase it just states that during the charge phase, so if you declare a charge with a unit with frensy before the end of Declare Charge phase then I think you're good.

 

[Demian]

Yes! that clears it all!! (mwahahaha)

As for the Frenzy charges, that's how we play it:

I declare a charge against any units of my choosing, unless I want them not to charge at all that turn. If so, my Varghs take a Ld test. If they fail, then they charge the nearest as per the rules.

 

[Mad 'At]

Then you both read it the way I do. For some reason many tournament organizers in Sweden read it the other way which is pretty annoying for my Savage Orc Great Shaman on Wyvern.

I would like to hear some more views on this but realise it would seam rather pointless to most since there seams to be no one to argue against, cause I would not be able to do it. If nothing else I'll just hope that GW brings it up in the next FAQ since I sent them a mail about it some months ago.

 

[Demian]

Well as far as I'm concerned, it's not about "how we read it" but how it is written:

"If during the Charge sub-phase, a unit that includes one or more Frenzied models could declare a charge, then it must do so..."


This first part here says it all. There are no restrictions here whehter you have to charge the closest or not. Now, lets continue reading:

"...unless a Leadership test is passed" - This right here is the only restriction. If... and unless are linked together, which means charge or NOT charge.

Now, to the final part. What happens if you don't want them to charge, but fail the Ld test:

"...If the Leadership test is failed, (then) the Frenzied unit must declare a Charge against..."

This last "then" is implicit, but it's a completely diferent set of conditions, not linked to the Charge or no Charge, but rather to the Pass or not pass the Ld Test under the "no Charge" option.

I hope you can explain it thus and get better results!

 

[Fodderboy]

Unless I am mistaken, you may declare charges normally with frenzied units. If you choose not to, and there are enemy units within potential charge range, you must at this point pass a Ld test to refrain from autocharging the nearest enemy unit.

That's what baiting is all about, forcing frenzied units out of position.

Under flying, it does say you may use ground movement for charges. It does seem against the spirit of frenzy, but is RAW unless it has been FAQ'd. I didn't see anything in the FAQ to contradict this.

 

[Niltag]

You only test LD if you do not declare charge this turn and have valid target.

When you fail your LD you decide groud or fly charge at moment of declaration and if groud is imposible you can not declare it. Frenzie force you to declare legal charge if its posible, if groud charge is not posible and fly charge is posible you must declare fly charge. If both fly and groud charges are posible you can choose to make ground or fly charge.

 

[Demian]

Hmmm that is true... the rules say "declare a Charge against the neares viable Unit"

Viable is... not a game therm, but it implies you should declare a charge against something you can reach.


My only concern here is: declaring a Charge and Completing a Charge are two different things. The rules are not clear to whether I must do anything in my power to complete such a charge or just do as instructed, declare a charge and then decide to maneouver to prevent my dudes from entering a bad combat.

There is a FAQ that states something like "if a Unit that is forced to Charge has a banner that allows them to re-roll the charge distance, must they use it? - No"

So... odd.

Anyways, it is a nice point Niltag, and in the spirit of the game, my Frenzied Flying units will always fly when failing their Ld test, hehe.

 

[HipoxiK]

Hello all!

I know there are a lot of ways to prevent Vargheists botching their frenzy check and charging something you don't want, like moonwalking.

However I was wondering: if you have a unit of say.. Ghouls in front of your Vargheists and they are forced to charge an enemy beyond them...

Can you choose to make it a "ground charge" instead of a Flying one to make it fail? Or are you compelled to always fly when charging?

Maybe this isn't ground breaking... but could save their hides sometime!

The discussion I'd like to add to this is:

If you choose to use ground movement for the charge then the enemy unit would have to be within 18" to be in charge range or you would have to use Fly movement.
If the enemy was within 18" you could use ground movement, but if you had a friendly unit in the way you would still have LOS over the friendly unit if they were smaller then MI. This would mean that if you made the charge range you would stop 1" from your friendly unit.

If there was no friendly unit then you could use a ground charge as normal which may still help them fail the charge.

Does this make sense or am I way off.

 

[Demian]

It does, and I find no argument with using ground movement instead of flying on purpose to help "fail" a charge.

I only have decided to implement an "always complete a charge, if able" side rule myself, in the spirit of the game, and because it sounds better fluff-wise.

 

[Niltag]

Well if you are able to make both ground or fly charge (no blocking units, range) you can choose to make ground or fly charge.

If there is only option to make fly charge, you have to declare fly charge.

If there is only option for ground charge (aka Storm Banner is up or something) you have to declare ground charge.