VC against High Elves

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Wcislek

Zombie
Aug 25, 2010
28
Stockholm
Zombies
20
Hi.
Im going to play my first game as Vc and im going to meet High Elves.
We are going to play 2500p and no special chars.

Can somebody give me some pointers about what to watch for when im meeting him.
 
Random thoughts on HE

I never played vs High Elves but I do know they have ASF, which means you should consider getting nightshroud on your general.

Another thing is take a unit or two of bats to counter the bolt throwers.

Every Elven mage knows a spell called Dampen Magic that makes it harder for you to cast, IMHO you should focus all vamps on combat and count on spells that go off as a bonus, don't count on em to win.

You can count on all elves to have T3. Also have M5. That means they can out manouver everything but your bats. Also I think they have high WS, maybe consider a helm.

Thats about all I know.
 
HE are very good in close combat, phoenix guard and white lions are popular choices. PG for the great saves and white lions for their great damage output. Get into combat on your terms. He also has ASF and will be re-rolling hits against you due to greater initiative, that along with unstable equals a lot of dead (read: hacked to pieces xD) models.

They also have great magic so load up with a level 4 on your own. You´ll need it! HE are really nasty in this edition. Watch out for lore of life (popular choice if you field a lot of PG), since you wont be the only one raising troops back from the dead! :vampire3:
 
So if i get this right they are veary good in close combat and really good in magic. Thats a bit Owerpower.

Then i just hope he is a bad player :P, but i dont think so.
 
They have a big weakness - the highest T in their army, including their Lords, is 3. Thats right, T3 Lords. Flesh to Stone in Lore of Life is popular, so be careful with that and you can abuse him with even your low S attacks.
 
Lore of Shadow is also a popular choice, several tournament winners on Ulthuan.net have used that lore. If special characters are allowed, techlis is a very popular choice, bunkered in a PG unit with Chadryan I believe he is named.
Popular choice is the archmage with book of hoeth, that means no protection 3W T3 mage, maybe consider some fast suicide thingie/character, either with a ASF rule, or can handle being hit by several str6 hits. And then kill that archmage.
The bolt throwers arent really that popular anymore, they consider them too fragile and expensive compared to other warmachines out there. But might have it uses against the VC, depends if its a tailored list or not.
Expect 3-4 great eagles.
There is a Great Eagle Tactica on Ulthuan.net with 8 tricks with the Eagle, I suggest you read it, so you can recognise when those tricks are being used against you and plan to counter them.
One of the more annoying being that he can place 3-4 eagles even before starting to place the units that matter, to best counter youre setup.

Ani
 
I ve played severall matches against HE. What i ve noticed is :

All Mages know Drain Magic spell. This spell increases the casting value of the all spells casted after that. HE spells are affected too so its reasonable that its gonna be the last spell casted in their Magic Phase. Dont let it pass. Keep your dispel scroll or at least have some dispel dice so you can deal with it cause its very annoying.

I would suggest you try kill the mages 1st if you can. They have T3 as all elves have and most important they cant wear any kind of armour. They might have some protection though through other magic items. If you manage to kill some of the mages your life will get a lot easier. They have items that gives them extra PD and DD making their magic phase very powerfull and their opponents cursing cause they cant cast their spells :P

Their most frightening and dangerous unit is (drum..drum!!) The Sword Masters. ASF with great weapons 2 attacks (3 for the champion) and I 5 means they will hit 1st most of the times and deal heavy dmg (they re-roll to hit too!).The only who can hit them before they hit you are your vampires. Dont ever throw your hard hitting units (GG, Vargulf, or anything else you have) to their front, as they wont survive the round. Usually the sword masters have a BSB in them holding Battle Banner which adds +D6 to their CR (I rly hate this standard :() or (less often) Banner of the World Dragon which makes the unit immune to Magic. The way to deal with them is 1) not always effective but can help, try to reduce their number as much as you can with some magic missiles or any other kind of magic range attack. 2) the way i prefer is to hold them in one spot using ethereal creatures. Ethereals are perfect when playing against HE, cause they dont have many magical attacks and also you can disrupt their movement so they dont out maneuver you and hit your flank or rear. Wraiths and Banshee are a very good Rare option as long as there isnt a hero in them (usually there is :() or they dont have Battle Banner. Even then you could probablly kill some and win the combat. Dont expect them to flee easilly, they all have very high Ld.

As i mentioned the only who can hit before elves are your vampires so what you can do in order to beat them in CR is challenge their hero or champion, be carefull about the Hero cause he might have some dirty tricks too.

Other dangerous units are: White Lions of Chrace.They have wood strider special rule so no penalty when passing from forests, they also have killing blow and great weapons. Phoenix Guards. They are the most "deffensive" elves with a 4+ ward save, heavy armour but still T3. They can hurt you when they attack too with their halberds (ASF and I 6!). They also cause fear so the small help that our less scary units offer is lost when facing them.

Thats all i have in mind right now,sure they are more, like their dragons and their bolt throwers, but i already wrote a lot i am sorry about that :rolleyes:
 
"The only who can hit them before they hit you are your vampires."

Huh, ALL units except Great Weapons will strike AT THE SAME TIME as any high elf model if you give them ASF.
ASF vs ASF = Same exact time to strike.
 
So a short summary of it all:

High Elves
- Often MSU tactic, so ensure you cast Winds of Undeath each turn for high casualties
- Only characters can have magical attacks, so Ethereal units (i.e. Winds of Undeath), will be difficult to kill
- Deadly in combat due to ASF & high WS, but low T, so can inflict return casualties easily, so long as you're big enough to get retaliations back
- Very strong magic, both offensively & defensively.
- Very high leadership, don't rely on fear / panic from small combat victories.
- Characters vulnerable, focus attacks on them to blunt opponents magic phase + leadership bubbles.

That cover most points?

Also I heard that High Elves like Star Dragons, what's the best ways to combat them?

My brother's playing HE tomorrow with his TKs, so am going to try and pass a lot of this onto him, since he's had very bad outings each time he's gone up against them previously.
 
- Often MSU tactic, so ensure you cast Winds of Undeath each turn for high casualties

I've fought one high elf at the 'ard boyz, he had 2 horde units, 1 phoenix bunker and eagles. plus some useless archers. MSU? No. Not at all. But when they flock the board with eagles, yes WoUndeath is good to cast.

- Only characters can have magical attacks, so Ethereal units (i.e. Winds of Undeath), will be difficult to kill

Wrong, Amulet of Light give an entire unit Magical Attacks, and spell effects can now grant magic attacks as well.

- Deadly in combat due to ASF & high WS, but low T, so can inflict return casualties easily, so long as you're big enough to get retaliations back

Correct. Don't go head first into a block of 50-60 spearelves.

- Very strong magic, both offensively & defensively.
- Very high leadership, don't rely on fear / panic from small combat victories.


Correct.

- Characters vulnerable, focus attacks on them to blunt opponents magic phase + leadership bubbles.

Fire Immunity, so don't use anything flaming on Dragon-Armour Wearing elves. Especially don't throw screamin skulls at Dragon Princes, it does nothing.
 
Thanks for all the info, was thinking of use the lore of Light to boost my uinits in ws and I, but maybe i should use Shadow or death to snipe there mages. Or maybe i just should use our own. most of you are saying that winds of undeath are a good thing to use.

Dont know what to use, but will post tomorrow how it went.
 
silly question, but cant figure out what MSU means :P anyone care to explain? Also its ironic how some of the most fragile units in the game can form such a strong defence. I am talking about HE spearmen (or Lothern Sea Guards). When they are in a unit of 40+ they are very hard to break o_o and they throw a lot of attacks, probabbly fighting in 3+ ranks.
 
MSU is "minimum sized units", it was much more popular in the last edition where there were "slots" for army selection (taking 2+ units of 10 Spearmen to get them out of the way so you can take juicier units, for example), not so much now with point limits/requirements. So Winds of Undeath would be more favorable against that composition.

Isn't it funny? Its really all about the numbers now it seems, definitely feels like quantity over quality at this stage of the game.
 
True that... as if their plasti-crack wasn't bad enough :rolleyes: .
Oh well, that's beside the point....

Back to High Elves though, they are intimidating, but as said, Mages are something of a lychpin to the army (generally speaking). The worrying unit to me is the Phoenix Guard, we can bring back casualties, and most units are easy to fight through after their flurry of attacks (Toughness 3 and rarely better than a 5+ Armor save). Not the case with the Guard, they pack a decent punch but can play the attrition game, we need to be the ones who have the advantage in that arena, but that 4+ Ward save is a threat, and you wont be able to get them out of your Grave Guard (for example) without some strong character support or at least tailored (such as the Other Trickster's Shard).
 
Outnumber him with heavy core.HE are an expensive army and will be unable to field your numbers.Get stuck in and grind him down,elves are not designed for wars of attrition and if you drag'em through the mud they'll falter.Charge,force combat,take chances,try and be disruptive.If you are the one being charged you are probably screwed.I'd suicide VGs at spellcasters.
I'd use lore of shadows,if you can reduce the strength of his infantry,they will fail.
Swordmasters with str 3 attacks are not nearly as intimidating.
 
Swordmasters in the present incarnation/edition are the worst of the 3 choices. A boatload of attacks that can be killed off fairly quickly by any of the power armies. They die to shooting and magic, and have no particular bonuses to Ld. Meanwhile, White lions are higher S and stubborn, and phoenix guard have a 4+ ward.

I am talking about HE spearmen (or Lothern Sea Guards). When they are in a unit of 40+ they are very hard to break.

I'm sorry, but I can't think of a single unit in the game nowadays that if you bring 40, they are easy to break. It's the nature of the game. HE get some advantages due to ASF rerolls and the extra rank, but really, if he's bringing multiple blocks of 40 spears or LSG, it's probably an easier build than some others. Anyone with a stone thrower (which means they have 2+, most likely 3) will have a field day.

Wind of Undeath is useful against the million eagle builds, but those lists are very obnoxious. I'd definitely recommend the eagle tactics articles to get a feel for all the tricks.
 
If you want a cheeky anti-Archmage assassin, try this:
Vampire hero
Sword of Battle,
Nightshroud,
Talisman of Lycni
Dragonbane Gem
Infinite Hatred

He will charge 9+2D6" which makes it a bit easier to charge into the enemy block; now we're going to assume your opponent is somewhat smart and has a champion, so the first round of combat will see your attacker fightin the champion: but the Nightshroud will remove his ASF, and so you should easily kill the enemy first. So you will have charge and 2 wounds, vs likely 2-3 ranks, standard (musician). You take a wound from crumbling (Or not if your BSB is nearby), and next turn 4 attacks on the Archmage with re-rolls to hit means you have around a 50-50 chance of killing him outright.

Dragonbane Gem is just in case he's decided to give his unit flaming attacks. Then you can razz your tongue at him when he tries to kill you back!
 
I am talking about HE spearmen (or Lothern Sea Guards). When they are in a unit of 40+ they are very hard to break.

I'm sorry, but I can't think of a single unit in the game nowadays that if you bring 40, they are easy to break. It's the nature of the game. HE get some advantages due to ASF rerolls and the extra rank, but really, if he's bringing multiple blocks of 40 spears or LSG, it's probably an easier build than some others. Anyone with a stone thrower (which means they have 2+, most likely 3) will have a field day.

Well it depends who your fighting against , what i meant is that although they have low T and you expect them to die like hell and win the combat, their other characteristics, high LD, good WS for a core unit, ASF, makes it hard to win in the CR, so noone should take 'em lightly. Other cores might lose and break easier than them even if their number is 40+, lets say skelletons (well they dont break but get completelly killed due to crumbling). Anyway unforunatelly we dont have stone throwers or other ranged weapons, just our magic :( Your correct about White Lions, dont know why but i had the impression that they have S3 (without adding the GW bonus).However i believe that Sword Masters are more dangerous against our units (VC armies) cause they have more attacks and can wipe out some of our units just in one round of combat (casualties from crumbling included) ,well i now know, the answer to this problem in 8th edition is higher number units, but still, i am afraid of them :scared:, bitter memories from the past, they ve hurt me...a lot :tongue: hehe
 
Just a side note... but last I checked my white lions didn't have killing blow. That would be nice...

As a High elf player myself I can tell you I have serious issues killing your ghouls with my LSG or spearmen. I typically have trouble lord v lord or hero v hero. My way of dealing with this is typically to throw my great weapons targetting generals to help maybe get some unstable kills :P.
My sword masters are my way of killing off your grave guard. Honestly unless your guys are pimped out or in horde I recommend not getting into it with them.
Yea magic is a big thing for high elves, and yes your black coach is incredible for knocking out a lot of their dice on the first phase. The black coach is nice after all powered up for killing sword masters too... Blood knights are good too for killing off pheonix guard. Best I get is ws 5 str 4 reroll to hit. against your now 3 up armour?

I have a friend who frequents these forums who will tell you High elves are the second best army out, and we are broken and can't be beaten bu his middle of the road vampires. Which is insane.... I think they are very even armies... so if you move right and get the right match ups you shouldn't have many issues.
 
One other thing which is worth mentioning. It is a rare thing to run into an Archmage with Drain Magic. They don't intrinsicly know it like our Vampires know Invocation of Nehek unless they take the Lore of High Magic.

I haven't run into any High Elf players so far (not to say there aren't any though) that use High Magic when they can choose from any Lore in the book.

High Elves have a strong magical defense, but if they don't take High Magic, they primarily just have their +1 to dispel on their Wizards.
 
I've been using High Elves, but my build is a bit more original than most of the other High Elves, and because it's got lots of power dice without having an Archmage, I do give High Magic to my level 2 Mage, so I often cast Drain Magic simply cos there's not much better worth casting ;)

But the regular cookie-cutter Book of Hoeth/ Lore of Life drones? You won't face Drain Magic vs them ;)
 

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