Viability of 100+ zombies

[MadLarkin]

Pretty straight forward. with how big hordes are and how many people will be hitting them, will a 100 strong unit of zombies be worth it?

Not as a combat unit mind you, but rather to deny a flank?

What tactics would you use with 100 zombies?

 

[Nelganis]

ummmm...wow, where to start...

100 zombies would probably be the most zombies I've ever seen on the field at once...If you can even fit that unit oto the field then maybe it would scare an opponent into thinking about killing it or trying to thin it out. Also, that would deny a flank as long as you can get them moving

But i would say that its more of a psychological thing than anything, almost any opponent who sees 100 zombies on the field will probably double-guess themselves...a dirty trick that I could see here is to keep a vampire with the helm of commandment very close by and able to target the zombies with the helm along with any main unit that you normally use the helm on. That way, you keep youre opponent guessing on what the zombies are there to do and whether they should be targetted or not...also, if they do engage the zombies then just hold them there and use the helm on the main unit, then flank charge them with lets say ws6 grave guard or ghouls...very nasty idea

 

[_Revan_]

I agree with that tactic. It would also be a good idea to give that Vampire with the Helm the Shadow Lore (mostly for Okkam's Mindrazor and then also for the fantastic Hexes).

Assuming that this is your General in the center of your army with Zombies supporting your flank, you could make any given unit Weapon Skill 7 and Strength 10,and with althe Wounds worth of Zombies you'll have... :Vampire1:

It would also be a good idea o have a few Necromancers with Vanhel's Danse or give someone the Book of Arkhan, obviously to have your Zombies(or whatever else really) strike first with re-rolls, but also to maneuver the army more smoothly.

Even without these Augments, they will be an effective tar-pit (as long as you maintain the unit), or even a shooting screen.

 

[guarin36]

why not use a horde of 50/60, this save loads of points. and can buy you another unit that can flank whatever the zombies hold up. and its not exactly hard to raise the zombies past this number over the first turn or two.

but i definatley agree with giving them some sort of boosts when they get into combat.

 

[Yanda]

Sounds like a waste of 400 Points, Wouldnt you rather just have 50 Ghouls instead?

 

[The Red Warden]

400 pts for 100 zombs... hmmm flank denial.

If you wanted, throw in another 55 for a necromancer for extra annoyance, ohh.. you killed 20 of my zombs... so sad, I raise 6... then 10.. then 7... then 4. you get the idea.

 

[Forge]

you only need 10 zombies to deny a flank, your only gonna lose maybe 5 when you charge into the flank at max on moist units so 15-20? you most certainly dont need 100 zombies unless its your main block unit.

 

[Poxous]

I bet most upper end combat units will pop 100 zombies in 2-3 combats. Then your magic focus has to turn to saving a weak unit instead of supporting your real units. I think zombies have a place... summoned zombies. Take turn 1 and SUH then pile guys in if you want zombies. They just are not worth the points. Like some one above said why 100 zombies and not 50 ghouls? Tp protect a flank...50 ghouls can protect it better and probably defeat whatever is over there!

 

[Coyote]

As you can tell, MadLarkin, we're kicking around several ideas to try to make a Zombie Horde work. I think that the key thing to keep in mind is that Zombies (like most of our units) cannot exist in a vacuum. Here's some other ways in which they might work well for you:

• As Poxous said, a large enough block should tarpit almost anything for a while. The idea that we kicked around of Necro-Spam used this to pin down a flank or a key unit long enough for you to maneuver the rest of your forces into place for the kill.
  • This is especially helpful against other tarpits and Unbreakables. Flagellants and Slayers immediately come to mind.
  • The Necros in Necro-Spam were only intend to keep things going in the meantime, by replacing models lost to shooting/magic or making the Zombies look big & scary.
  • Wait to strike the killing blow until after the Zombies die. No sense in losing to CR on accident.
• Ablative Missile Screen - A large enough Zombie block can potentially provide a -2 hard cover bonus to most of your force. But many have argued that this is unwieldy, risky (because of overrun), and a waste of points overall.
• Jedi Mind Trick (... these are not the GG that you're looking for) - There's a psychological impact to a huge block of Unbreakable troops. You can use this to your advantage to distract an opponent's attention. Not likely to work on more experienced players, but hey.

Oh, don't forget the Zombie Musicians if you do take a big block though. Fast Reform can really help you open a path for your follow on troops.

 

[MadLarkin]

Great idea guys. From this I'm thinking 60-70 zombies to start with musician (standard or no?) and a necro with invo and vanhel's. Whenever the necro doesn't use vanhel's he'll one dice invo to try and raise them up. I think I'm planning on using this on one extreme side of the field to corral fast cav and skirmishers and keep smaller faster units from flanking my main force. Maybe even tie up a monster or something.

 

[Yanda]

Whats the point of casting VDM on Zombies, like Re-rolling WS 1 STR 2 Hits, Whoopty Doo :tongue: Im pretty sure most people wont even try to dispel it because its going to be so much easier dispeling everything else during the magic phase once you have blown some dice. Magic spent on zombies is probably not the best use of your magic dice when you got other units on the board that can be raised beyond max and an army with no shooting beyond CoY, GoN or forbidden lore shooty spells. Just doesnt seem like a good use of points, even if you raise ALL of them from scratch your efforts could be put to better use elsewhere imo. I understand you guys wanna make tactics for your fluffy zombies and skeletons but from a mathhammer prospective it just isnt logical.


@Coyote - Zombie Musician, there LD 2 and cant be joined by characters so there relying completely on your Generals LD bubble. I dont think your going to make very many Swift Reforms at LD 2. Also Zombies dont have any chance against flagglents, anything with multiple attacks is going to mow zombies down like butter.

 

[Tamodan Varison]

If you're within the 12" from the general, there's two thing you have to do to make your zombies one of the best units in warhammer: 'Helm of COmmandement' and 'Occam's Mindrazor', if you play it that you use the generals LD.

 

[Coyote]

@Coyote - Zombie Musician, there LD 2 and cant be joined by characters so there relying completely on your Generals LD bubble. I dont think your going to make very many Swift Reforms at LD 2. Also Zombies don't have any chance against flagglents, anything with multiple attacks is going to mow zombies down like butter.

True that, Yanda. As to the Musician, you're right that they won't likely pass without the Ld buff. But without the Musician, they won't even be able to try. And considering how ridiculously inexpensive they are, why not buy one? As to the Standard Bearer, you need to weigh the value of the 25VP that it'll likely give vs. the +1CR. With Zombie models costing 4pts, it'd take 6 rounds of combat to earn it's value. Not worth it, IMHO, unles you're willing/planning to invest enough IoN to make them an eternal tarpit.

As to Flagellants, again, you're right. But that's not the point. The point is that while they're wasting their energy on a Zombie tarpit, they're not going anywhere. And, assuming that they can't blow through the Zombies in a single round, they're not going to overrun. Just combat reform at best. So, the point of the Zombies here is that you're tossing away a few hundred points to tie up whatever you've determined is a key unit.

Some folks hate that idea. Me? I sacrifice pieces in Chess like they're going out of style. Doesn't matter if you lost a few hundred VPs when you've tabled the other guy...

 

[StirogiPerogi]

Whats the point of casting VDM on Zombies, like Re-rolling WS 1 STR 2 Hits, Whoopty Doo :tongue: Im pretty sure most people wont even try to dispel it because its going to be so much easier dispeling everything else during the magic phase once you have blown some dice. Magic spent on zombies is probably not the best use of your magic dice when you got other units on the board that can be raised beyond max and an army with no shooting beyond CoY, GoN or forbidden lore shooty spells. Just doesnt seem like a good use of points, even if you raise ALL of them from scratch your efforts could be put to better use elsewhere imo. I understand you guys wanna make tactics for your fluffy zombies and skeletons but from a mathhammer prospective it just isnt logical.


@Coyote - Zombie Musician, there LD 2 and cant be joined by characters so there relying completely on your Generals LD bubble. I dont think your going to make very many Swift Reforms at LD 2. Also Zombies dont have any chance against flagglents, anything with multiple attacks is going to mow zombies down like butter.

Zombies are horrible, except in one regard: they are our easiest unit to heal-up. So I agree that VDM is not an optimum use for a Zombie horde, unless you use it for movement. A large brick of zombies, with a little magical support can hold-up units that you just do not want to mess with for almost the entirety of a game. If you are facing the Hell-Pit Abomination, then a Zombie tar-pit is way better than a Ghoul tar-pit.

 

[Count Lasombra]

As soon as mantic releases it's new zombies I'm getting 50,I intend to field them as a single unit 10x5 or 5x10 depending on the opponent,or stretched out 20 wide across the front of my army against gunlines.
My general will have the HOC and forbidden lore(shadow) though.

 

[Forge]

if you beat someone with a mostly zombie fluff army id be pretty proud of my self, its most certainly possible, you just have to find that balance of units and make a good support character list. couple vamps with lore of shadow, helm of commandment caster lord, some varghulfs to hunt war machines you just have to be very careful, if your good im sure its possible, id suggest one very large central block 100+ zombies then a couple smaller units still in the 50 range spread 5x10 and maybe some groups of 1x(whatever number minimum 20) to protect your side flanks to keep characters safe.

 

[Poxous]

As cool as it sounds...

I can see no reason to ever field Zombies wider than 5.

 

[aussie]

i ran 60 zombies in a 850 list 40 in one unit 20 the other, i got the zombies up to 90 zombies first turn and i almost broke the dwarves players heart but when i gave the 50 man unit first strike and getting the shadow spell off which gave all my zombies st 7 it was game that and a vulgulf destroying 3 units man i love thunderstomp

 

[Poxous]

Nice!!!

Zombies on crack!!!

 

[Count Lasombra]

As cool as it sounds...

I can see no reason to ever field Zombies wider than 5.

To provide cover.
To block enemy movement.
you can horde them up and try to force okkam's,if successful you may cause serious damage.If you fail..F'em they're zombies.
It looks cool

 

[gallamine]

I havent managed to get my zombie unit upto 100 (yet) but ive got them to around 75-85 using invo but ill be honest my zombies have only ever killed a single unit (and by unit i mean 5 shades) which still took 2 turns (even outnumbering 10-1) and cost me a few bodies. Another thing to think about is how fast zombies die in cc (literally 20+ in some turns, due to wounds and combat res (which no amount of bodies can really stop)) at least this is how it goes with my games.
Tbh I have really went off zombies (even as a tarpit) but that being said using them as cover or (somehow) getting them to flank would be prob the best bet, so i wouldnt spend the points on the 100 man unit, maybe buy 30-40 and invo spam them ( i field 2 necros and vamp and can raise a lot of zombies in a very short time). However a 100 man zombie unit would
A) look soooo kl
B) would prob freak out a good few opponents (particularly if they have had no exp fighting zombies) and draw alot of attention, particularly if a necro is hanging around behind them to invo them) so i guess that would allow your gg etc to get up close to make a mess of *insert enemy here*
C) buffing them would be pretty funny and would possibly make an enemy do this :O
My 2 cents
Gal