Virtual Shopping Trip- Buying a 2000 points army. Comparing Mantic & Games Workshop.

[horrid]

I checked out your post as it seemed like an interesting premise. While the merits of building an army based solely on cost clearly make mantic a more attractive choice than games workshop I'd hope that there are other factors that might be considered by an aspiring general.

I appreciate that Sanai set out with the intention of a fair comparison but the very nature of the guidelines heavily skewed the results in favor of the mantic option. Considering the vast gulf in prices I don't think there was any requirement to pad the numbers by designing the "control list" with mantic pieces in mind. On the other side of the coin he really had to dig in order to find games workshop counterparts that met his list descriptors and most of them were "classic" range eyesores that are embarassing when compared to contemporary sculpts due to advancements in both sculpting as an art form and production technology.

There is a marked tendency for the internet commuinity to be overly forgiving concerning the quality level of mantic sculpts. Usually the defence lies in abstractions like "aesthetic" and "personal taste". Typically these left brained apologist platitudes are juxtapositioned with right brained "price science" stabs against the evil money machine that is games workshop.

 

[Jacques Dauger De Cavoye]

There is a marked tendency for the internet commuinity to be overly forgiving concerning the quality level of mantic sculpts. Usually the defence lies in abstractions like "aesthetic" and "personal taste". Typically these left brained apologist platitudes are juxtapositioned with right brained "price science" stabs against the evil money machine that is games workshop.

I can't really speak for other people, but as for me, I prefer Mantic over GW undead, and the price is just a bonus I always liked the idea of vampire counts, but I never could get behind many of the models. One of the few VC sculpts that I really like are the regular skeletons. I think they look fantastic, and plain better than the regular mantic skellies, but that's really about it. When my brother first showed me the Mantic undead I immediately decided on VC, I didn't even realize that they were cheaper until later. I understand your defense against GW, they are number one in the industry, they have the most solid fan base, and it is their game we are playing but I really just don't care for some of their sculpts :skull:

I also don't understand what people are talking about when they say quality is better at GW. Do you mean the quality of the plastic that it's made out of, or the quality of the looks, or what? If it is about the material, I honestly don't notice a difference But, maybe that's just me. What it seems like to me is that, maybe it is true that people are mixing together their predisposition to expensive products and their ability to form excuses to save money, but who cares? If people are happy, then does it matter if the quality was a little better at that other company, or that on the other side of the fence, they spent more money than those other guys? This is a hobby that involves aesthetics. So if somebody decides to buy the crappier kit because they like the look of it, than kudos to them. I have to say that this thread was great to show the different options on the market, but I also don't believe it was being biased against GW. They make enough money as it is, we have all bought their stuff in the past, and you will also know if you like GW or mantic better. So in the end, I think it really does come down "Personal Taste".

Anyway, thanks for the thread Sanai.

 

[Sanai]

I seriously doubt I would skew things in favour of mantic, as I am one of the biggest haters of mantic on the entire interwebs. A control list based on mantic was neccesary, as it had the more limited range. Also, you dont have to dig into the horrible looking old games workshop minis, if you use conversions/etc. I just wasnt going to base a comparison on conversions.

I do agree that alot of people subconsciously make themselves like the aesthetics of the mantic stuff because their wallet gives them a bias.

In the end, I think an army from games workshop is perfectly affordable. If I can do it on 8 hours a week of shelf filling work, without even bothering to go for the cheapest ways of getting games workshop stuff, then I dont see what the problem is.

My preference is to just buy the model that you like the most and fits the army the most, price isnt really a consideration in model choice, just in where you buy that model from/when you buy that model. (You can always just hold off on buying it for a few more weeks and spend the time painting your big pile of grey unpainted plastic.)

But thats just my opinion, which isnt really worth anything.

The main thing that prompted me to make this thread, was people who argue about prices, but only quote games workshop prices direct from games workshop. They say they want to save money, but they dont even shop around to see what the actual prices are.

Anyways, everyone, feel free to draw what conclusions you want. In the end most will just interpret my data to support the preconceptions they already have, or try and discredit it with minutiae (or even just try and discredit me). I will later add more virtual shopping experiments, covering the use of conversions, different army lists, etc, or even just straight up unit comparisons.

 

[Tim]

Sanai did a great job.
If anything he just showed vc generals en potential new vc generals what your options are to recruit more forces for your armies.
I do like the mantic prices but in the end I like the GW sculpts a lot more.
I don't buy from gw directly, I buy from online shops or ebay or maybe some deals I find elsewhere. This way I still get what I want but not at the premium prices GW offers.

Go with what you like ascetically or with what you can afford or find a middle way and mix and match.

 

[hairyjeff]

I have to say that I can't see Sanai ever buying or liking mantic, which is why his project was so well done.Although I prefer the Mantic skeletons, zombies, and revenants ( GG), their characters are seriously naff. As Sanai has said, this was to show options. And so, it did.

 

[horrid]

Thanks for some good replies. I'm not terribly active in the commuinity so I'm not really familiar with the mini preferences of other commuinity members.

Most of the quality issues come down to production technology. GW, love them or hate them (most people on the internet seem to do both at the same time) are the industry leader. Twenty years ago plastic models were pretty nasty subs for metal models. Back ranks were the hiding place for lumpen mono-pose static plastics. The poses were usually designed for ease of injection into the molds and detail was less than stellar.

By the late 90's quality had improved with more multipose kits being released. The detail wasn't matching metals but had improved. In the last six years or so there have been very noticeable leaps. The first landmark I can think of was the phasing out of some hybrid kits for all plastic replacements. There has been a move over this period to refit ranges almost entirely in plastics excepting character models (the empire is the pioneer army: gradually the others are following). The IOB set and some recent plastic calvary have demonstrated some pretty crazy casts with very thin, fine components and details that compare favourably with metals. These improvements were most likely derivative of the 09 Space Hulk casts.

Artistic differences aside I think I'm being generous if I state that Mantic is at least 10 years behind in production technology. I don't have insight into either companies production faclities so my assessment is based purely on examination of models on and off of sprues. The nastiest thing about them is the side on view. Because they use few component casts there usually isn't a lot going on laterally with these models. Due to cast tricks and multiple parts GW offers more dynamic sculpts (they like showing this off with those 360 degree spins on their site). The main reason I'll give them ten years behind is because they have demonstrated they can produce fine components. The hands on their grasping ghouls are well formed with splayed digits. I do like Mantics zombies. The parts mix great with Bolt Action plastics to make Dead Snow Germans. Both ranges are true 28mm and work great together (I think Warlord runs Bolt Action as well: I really like their Brits for AE:WW2).

Another issue with with the undead army is continuity. As I stated before the I think that the ghouls and zombies were sculpted by a pretty talented person. They are realistically proportioned and have some respectable detail. Who sculpted the skeletons? They look like the bastard children of Nagash. When regiments are sculpted within a year or two of one another there should be cohesion. GW zombies are almost 15 years old and look ridiculous beside the new plastics but time makes the disparity understandable (If not any easier to take. All I want for Vampuary is a cool looking zombie regiment).

To finish this off I'm more a modeller/painter than gamer. I don't think much about the price of a model because if I'm going to spend hours cutting something up and painting it that's plenty of time I'm not bleeding out cash on some other hobby. If I was more of a gamer I'd probably be quite happy to field Mantic pieces.

 

[Sanai]

^ I pretty much agree with and second 100% of that post. The comparison of mantic skeletons to nagash is actually pretty damn apt.
I also want to clear the air, I dont despise everything that mantic has made, I actually dont mind their ghouls/zombies. Its mostly just the skeletons/revenants/cavalry/characters that I despise, and their bussiness model. (A products most appealing features should be its quality, originality and utility, not its cheapness, and it looks suspiciously like mantics range is more made to be used in warhammer than kings of war)
The only reason I dont buy the mantic ghouls/zombies, which I dont mind, is that I love the style of the games workshop ghouls, and am kitbashing my own unit of zombies from corpse cart bits which just looks amazing in my opinion. (Will be a while before anyone gets to see my new zombies, as they aint high in my to paint list)

 

[spineyrequiem]

Bumping this because I expect there'll be some new players around pretty soon, who'll fancy a look at this.

Now, my thoughts. Mantic zombies, in my opinion, are a much better choice; they're prettier models (I think), and I can buy 60 for £34.99, whereas I can only buy 20 GW zombies (which were nice when released, but are now starting to show their age) for £20.50. The ghouls are also good sculpts, somewhat lacking in the variety department, but again much cheaper than GW equivalents. Note that these are both on the main sites, I can get them significantly cheaper elsewhere.

The skeletons however... I'd agree with most of the comments on here. They're not terribly pretty, certainly I prefer the GW ones. However, since they are cheaper, they could be very useful for filling out back ranks, in the large units which are so popular today. They're a little like a one-skeleton unit filler.

The ghouls, as I said, are nice sculpts. I'd use them like a shot, were it not for the extra variety inherent in GW ones. As well as this, the GW ones match the Crypt Horrors coming out soon, so if you want to use those models it's probably better to use GW ghouls. Unfortunately, the differing designs between the GW and Mantic ones means that you can't really use Mantic ghouls to fill out the back ranks of GW ghoul regiments.

Finally, a word of warning to any new hobbyists. GW stores and tournaments don't let you play with non-GW models, so if you want to play in those mostly, it's probably best to stick to GW versions from any source you choose.