The rumors have WoC being the next Fantasy book released around this November. My question to you Vampire fans is will GW stay with their time honored tradition and keep them as a tier one army or do you think they'll get a Tomb Kings/Orcs type of nerfing?
Warriors of Chaos : Nerf Bat or Silver Wand?
- Thread starter Yorga
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Hey there, Yorga
You think they've always been a tier 1 army? Interesting. I feel that's only been the case since 8th edition was released. I've only been playing for 9 years so I can't comment on 5th but in 6th they were a bit too expensive. Even when they could combine forces with Beasts and Daemons, they were still just upper mid tier. The only mortal units I would see played were marauder horsemen and the occasional knight unit. In 7th they were middle of the pack as well, even with the strong Tzeentch lore. It wasn't until 8th with the introduction of step up, striking in initiative order on the charge and the ability to throw 6 PD at a spell when WoC went from being 7th or so to about 4th in power rankings. That's just from my personal observations and from what I've seen in tournament standings.
As to their next book, I don't think they will be as subpar as Tomb Kings. They are one of the bigger cashcows and GW will make sure their finished product is decent. Will they be as strong as the Ogres? Perhaps but I can see them being a balanced army with weaker spells (see Tzeentch and Nurgle) and good but adequately priced infantry. They really should have made Forsaken a skirmish unit....they are called "Chaos" afterall....
You think they've always been a tier 1 army? Interesting. I feel that's only been the case since 8th edition was released. I've only been playing for 9 years so I can't comment on 5th but in 6th they were a bit too expensive. Even when they could combine forces with Beasts and Daemons, they were still just upper mid tier. The only mortal units I would see played were marauder horsemen and the occasional knight unit. In 7th they were middle of the pack as well, even with the strong Tzeentch lore. It wasn't until 8th with the introduction of step up, striking in initiative order on the charge and the ability to throw 6 PD at a spell when WoC went from being 7th or so to about 4th in power rankings. That's just from my personal observations and from what I've seen in tournament standings.
As to their next book, I don't think they will be as subpar as Tomb Kings. They are one of the bigger cashcows and GW will make sure their finished product is decent. Will they be as strong as the Ogres? Perhaps but I can see them being a balanced army with weaker spells (see Tzeentch and Nurgle) and good but adequately priced infantry. They really should have made Forsaken a skirmish unit....they are called "Chaos" afterall....
I don't think WoC are Tier 1 as of now. They're not weak, that's for sure, but at the moment they're not Tier 1 material IMO.
That quibble aside, I think we've already seeing the peak of the WoC army's strength. In other words, I agree with Johnny. IMO, the trend seems to be that by and large, armies that were weak suddenly become leaders of the pack when the new book comes out, whereas the armies that were strong slip down the rung. Warriors of Chaos taking the nerf bat to the face seems to be whats coming.
That quibble aside, I think we've already seeing the peak of the WoC army's strength. In other words, I agree with Johnny. IMO, the trend seems to be that by and large, armies that were weak suddenly become leaders of the pack when the new book comes out, whereas the armies that were strong slip down the rung. Warriors of Chaos taking the nerf bat to the face seems to be whats coming.
Seneschal said:
Yes. Been playing for 20 years now. In college I dabbled in a couple games of 3d edition but I didn't have my own army. Just played in big group games. I really got into Warhammer in 4th Edition. Warriors of Chaos (or maybe I should just saw Chaos) have always been one of the most powered armies. Especially in the day when they could ally up with beastmen and demons. I think they are tier 1. At the QCR which was a 114 player tourney they had the most showing. But I disagree with Johnny. No Puppet but they will remain a solid army. Ward is up for a book...I bet they gave it to him. He doesn't nerf armies.
In late 7th the were awesome, a unit of 5 marauder horsemen with flails and mark of Khorne could kill most weak units (like anything with T3 and low armour, in any number) without even breaking sweat. IMO steadfast took a heavy toll in terms of power. At least when playing small games or with newbies.
Nowdays I think they are pretty balanced, though some better inner balance is needed, you don't ever see units of forsakens for example. Hopefully they'll get a few more options too, to fill out the void created by the split.
Nowdays I think they are pretty balanced, though some better inner balance is needed, you don't ever see units of forsakens for example. Hopefully they'll get a few more options too, to fill out the void created by the split.
Ben E. Violent
Ghoul
Well I sure hope they don't get the bat, as they are my only army...
I was hoping for Wood Elves or something (unless they've already been done, god I have no idea), as IMHO it's the really underpowered units that need addressing. I was of the opinion that WoC were pretty balanced, but then again I of course don't play particularly seriously.
I was hoping for Wood Elves or something (unless they've already been done, god I have no idea), as IMHO it's the really underpowered units that need addressing. I was of the opinion that WoC were pretty balanced, but then again I of course don't play particularly seriously.
Chosen/Knight star with double shrine and unkillable disc characters is so hard to crack and no fun to play against. Though I suggest stocking up on marauders while you can... 10 per box and all that
Though if they remove Throgg and Kholek from the book I am sacking GW HQ :swear:
Though if they remove Throgg and Kholek from the book I am sacking GW HQ :swear:
They will get Nerf'ed, they have been on top to long and people have been foretelling it all 7th.
They will get more choice but Nerf'ed into the second tier like ourselves.
Their magic is going to take a hammering as well, wonder how they will manage with Treason, Gateway and their misscast special going the same was as out Marching and VH Danse Macabre.
Same as I hear the Warriors are dropping 1 Initiative and WS but Chosen keep the full, The eye of the gods though will get a hammering and their items will be driven into the ground so no more terror banner rerolls.
Wonder if Tzeentch will still allow them to get 3+ armour followed by 5+ wards.
As it stands though, this edition is ruled by ogres.....
They will get more choice but Nerf'ed into the second tier like ourselves.
Their magic is going to take a hammering as well, wonder how they will manage with Treason, Gateway and their misscast special going the same was as out Marching and VH Danse Macabre.
Same as I hear the Warriors are dropping 1 Initiative and WS but Chosen keep the full, The eye of the gods though will get a hammering and their items will be driven into the ground so no more terror banner rerolls.
Wonder if Tzeentch will still allow them to get 3+ armour followed by 5+ wards.
As it stands though, this edition is ruled by ogres.....
Dropping 1 Initiative is fine in my opinion but 1 less WS? That seems really strange since they are such a close combat army. It will look a little weird having them WS 4 and Chosen still at 6, that gap just seems strange.
@Johnny
I really don't see any alternate lists sticking around since GW has been trying to streamline the game so much. Perhaps I shouldn't be working on painting all those trolls...
@Johnny
I really don't see any alternate lists sticking around since GW has been trying to streamline the game so much. Perhaps I shouldn't be working on painting all those trolls...
Thats what I have heard, you have to remember that a chaos warrior is the same power as most regular characters with just 1 wound. they are to powerful, yes they are 15 points but they are awesome and you can have Marauders which are some of the best bargain troops in the game.
Johnny-Crass said:
Really? You want to make a zombie bet on that? Because the first thing that popped into my head up seeing the thread was 'Well they'll definitely loose Infernal Puppet at least':lol:
That and something will be done about the warshrine spam. Either nerfing the eye of the gods table or changing the way the shrines work dramatically. Other than that, the only thing that I think will get properly nerfed will be marauders. Not sure how they will, but either by points hike, loosing stats/weapon options or inability to take marks they WILL be nerfed.
And I think that they'll stop the possibility of an all troll army too.
Loempiaketzer
Crypt Horror
some stuff might drop and i think the puppet wil be lost as well (for what my opinion is worth)
As on the chaos warriors part, they should be a bit less awesome. Marauders, according to GW logic, will get nerfed quite a bit.
The main thing im wondering about is what kind of unit they are going to add and bring models out for. as with all new releases, nerf the current way to go and get something new slightly better so chaos players will have to buy all of them new models...
I hope they dont bring out big monsters/monstrous cavalary, but this seems to be the new thing around.
New book should be nice though, cant wait!
As on the chaos warriors part, they should be a bit less awesome. Marauders, according to GW logic, will get nerfed quite a bit.
The main thing im wondering about is what kind of unit they are going to add and bring models out for. as with all new releases, nerf the current way to go and get something new slightly better so chaos players will have to buy all of them new models...
I hope they dont bring out big monsters/monstrous cavalary, but this seems to be the new thing around.
New book should be nice though, cant wait!
If you look into the fluff in the BRB, it references some enormous brass war engines, so you can place a safe bet that something along those lines will come out
Or possibly those brass riders (chaos knight champions on juggernauts)for the Siege of Volganof.
Loempiaketzer said:
Well...I can see Marauders going down to WS and Init. 3. Like normal humans. But they will be cheaper meaning you can take more and will have the same weapon options. I don't see them redoing this model kit.
So if they drop 1 in WS and Init. then it makes sence Warriors will too. Again...they will be cheaper like 12 points each.
The puppet will go. No hellheart for us. I bet (GW) they are regretting the Hellheart right now. The Chaos Runesword will stay but will be more expensive and slightly different. Better. We'll keep the Banner of Rage but it will cost so much that only a BSB can take it. That limits it tremedously and makes it possible to get rid of.
As to monsters, the Shaggoth model is long in the tooth and will likely see a new plastic. The Shaggoth will be brought up to Abom standards and desirability. Or....maybe a Marauder Mammoth of some sort on the giant terrorgheist base? Monsterous infantry is covered by trolls. I think we will lose Chaos Ogres. Monstrous cav is covered by Dragon Ogres. New plastic models for sure. I would even buy these.
Chariots too. Chariots might keep their stats saying that only the best warriors get the honor of riding them.So Chaos players will holler as their list of magic items goes from 40 to 8. They will bemoan the stat reduction is marauders and warriors. I think knights will be left alone. Eye of God tweaks for sure (they may remove the annoying 'must' challenge rule) and some new 'must' buy plastic kits. Like Chariots!
Johnny-Crass said:Puppet is more akin to hellheart IMO. Also that means you two will have to split the pot
That's up to C_B if he wants to share the risk/reward.
erv:
Or maybe marauders will get the same treatment as empire swordsmen, point raise and Init. reduction. erv:
erv: