What Core in 8th ? ( Speculation )

[illusionarypresence]

SCR is down now. combat will be decided on kills. with so many more attacks happening wounds will have a much higher impact on combats. you can no longer go into combat with +5SCR and feel safe, your unit will melt rather quickly.

the thing i really dont like is units are stubborn if they have more ranks than enemy. however this wont mean anything to us as we'll still melt. so basically enemy units that are bigger than us aint going now where (stubborn using generals ld with BSB reroll) and were the same.

oh and missile weapons are better. shame we dont have any of them either isnt it!

 

[Pietr Von Carstein]

Well I like skellies and won't be changing regardless of the changes .
At least there will be fewer people whining about vamps in 8th .

 

[chefsdad]

ALL infantry get the horde rule, and +1 for outnumber is gone, but you now get +1 ombat res for charging (which is 2d6 plus movement). Honestly,Ive seen a fair bit of 8th and it looks like it will be immense. Im very excited.

 

[Dvil]

I'm going with skellies myself. I prefer the models and the general theme, and I have more anyway. Might have to beef up the numbers of spears I have though, keep my options open.

 

[Forgotten Heretic]

i like both units so i'll probably stay as i am and take both skellies and ghouls. A horde of ghouls sounds evil, 41 poisoned attacks from horde formation, imagine how many potential 6s that is, even if you only get 7 of the front rank in combat thats 29 attacks. and if you give your skeletons spears you'll be able to attack in 4 ranks with horde

 

[Pietr Von Carstein]

And why would you want skeletons in a horde ? Go for more ranks so the enemy won't be stubborn .

 

[Forgotten Heretic]

i suppose it depends on what army you're fighting but if you had skeletons with spears in a horde you'd get models in all 4 ranks to attack. as long as you aren't fighting an elite unit they could potentially kill enough to lower the enemy's ranks anyway, with hw & sh it'd be different, but as most of my skeletons are equiped with spears anyway i like the idea of having them in a horde, my main opponent is a skaven player and he regularly has more ranks than me now, i cant see it being any different in 8th so i'd rather have more attacks than worry about him being stubborn

 

[Anubis]

well, if you're going for a 'hoard' unit, the skellies are way better... they have the same amount of attacks as the ghouls, but they get an armour save & have a full command with the potential for a magic banner.
40 ghouls:
front rank = 21 attacks
2nd rank = 10 attacks
3rd rank = 10 attacks
total = 41 attacks

40 skellies:
front rank = 11 attacks
2nd rank = 10
3rd rank = 10
4th rank = 10
total = 41 attacks
sure they're not poisoned, but with the way fear works now, the ghouls lose out since hitting on 3's doesn't do jack for them in all honesty... (ie: they're better when hitting on 4's with a re-roll from something like vanhel's or a CC's miasma of deathly vigor to max-out their poisoned hits)
plus, with the banner, the skellies can get an additional boost with the likes of a war banner or hellfire standard since flaming attacks are so much better now!

now, if you're going for just pure ranks, then i think ghouls are the better option since they are tougher and can kill a bit more with poison... plus, the enemy needing 5's to-hit them should they fail a fear test means they'll take far fewer hits than the skellies will!

so there you go, as i see it, skellies w/spears make our better hoard units, while the ghouls are now, (ironically), the better rankers for denying the enemy the chance to become stubborn!

cheers!

 

[Ridarsin]

well, if you're going for a 'hoard' unit, the skellies are way better... they have the same amount of attacks as the ghouls, but they get an armour save & have a full command with the potential for a magic banner.
40 ghouls:
front rank = 21 attacks
2nd rank = 10 attacks
3rd rank = 10 attacks
total = 41 attacks

40 skellies:
front rank = 11 attacks
2nd rank = 10
3rd rank = 10
4th rank = 10
total = 41 attacks
sure they're not poisoned, but with the way fear works now, the ghouls lose out since hitting on 3's doesn't do jack for them in all honesty... (ie: they're better when hitting on 4's with a re-roll from something like vanhel's or a CC's miasma of deathly vigor to max-out their poisoned hits)
plus, with the banner, the skellies can get an additional boost with the likes of a war banner or hellfire standard since flaming attacks are so much better now!

now, if you're going for just pure ranks, then i think ghouls are the better option since they are tougher and can kill a bit more with poison... plus, the enemy needing 5's to-hit them should they fail a fear test means they'll take far fewer hits than the skellies will!

so there you go, as i see it, skellies w/spears make our better hoard units, while the ghouls are now, (ironically), the better rankers for denying the enemy the chance to become stubborn!

cheers!

Ghouls on the other hand have WS3, which means when the enemy fails the fear test they will need 5's over 4's on skeletons. Ghouls in horde have the same number of attacks as spear skeletons as well and are T4. I fail to see how hitting on 3's is better for skeletons than ghouls, because they are the same strength o_o.

It's sad that i feel I need to remove my beloved skeletons from my list, as I am not a big fan of ghouls. Ghouls will kill more so I plan on running 2 blocks of 25. I will also be testing out a block of 50 Zombies :zombie:, as a psychological weapon, my brother was in horror of the idea (WoC player). Zombies have a better raising power (D6+4), which means 1/2 rank minimum or full rank maximum.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

Hold on, if you can always attack from the second rank, doesn't that make spears obsolete? o.o

 

[Order of the Blood Dragon]

no because spears add an extra rank of attacks, so it means they get even more attacks, I'm still unsure with what core but I don't want to use ghouls simply because I prefer the image of a skeleton. So for me the question is hand weapon or spear. To be honest I think this edition the question is which core: ghouls, hand weapon skellies or spear skellies as they all have their advantages. I think tactically ghouls will have an advantage since SCR won't be quite as effective and kills will be more important, but if banners are really needed for capturing objectives of some sort then ghouls will be of little use in my opinion.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

What, so every unit can fight in two ranks, and with spears the second rank get two attacks each?! That means with a horde you effectively have four fighting ranks! And, if spears work for the horde rule as well, five ranks! Thats minimum 50 attacks!

 

[Order of the Blood Dragon]

erm... no
Start with 2 ranks allowed to fight
Spears means 3rd rank allowed to fight as well
Horde means 4th rank allowed to fight as well
Being a High Elf with Spear in a Horde means 5 ranks allowed to fight, 50 man sea guard unit would do obscene amount of shooting, followed by ridiculous number of attacks. It would be a similar cost to alot of other deathstars but more of an anti-infantry deathstar rather than anti-elites like GG with great weapons or BKs.

If lots take advantage of rules like horde and field big units of cheap guys then HW, Shield won't give us much as the ward won't be used against most units and the increased number of attacks means SCR won't be so good, spears won't be too good either as their original pts value was based on the awesome effects of fear which are obsolete now rather than the paltry stats of skellies. I reckon Ghouls will be the best as the toughness 4 will be useful against all but the most elite units and the better attacking stats means they'll get those important kill based CR. I think I'll have to come up with some cool conversions to replace ghouls, like a counts-as.

 

[Pietr Von Carstein]

What, so every unit can fight in two ranks, and with spears the second rank get two attacks each?! That means with a horde you effectively have four fighting ranks! And, if spears work for the horde rule as well, five ranks! Thats minimum 50 attacks!

You only get 1 attack from supporting ranks . Spears allow an extra supporting rank => 1 attack each . It only effects saurus really as they are the only multi attack spear wielders that I know of .
The horde isn't all that because of how unwieldy it is . Its easily flanked and it wont be stubborn when you beat it in combat . You can't support to the side so that limits the attacks . And in the end you will only get about 7 in base to base so its highly unlikely to get the full attacks .

 

[Count Darvaleth]

Oh ok, spears bring in rank three. Got it. That's quite a fearsome prospect.

 

[Pietr Von Carstein]

Everyones been talking about the high elven 50 spearmen unit but if you put the cheaper blood knights against them they rip them to shreds in one round . 14 Black knights who are still cheaper than the elves also rips them to shreds . They are still S , T 3 with a 5+ save . Not exactly fearsome , even with the potential 51 attacks .

 

[Order of the Blood Dragon]

Try that against any weak to average units, sure BK of both types can beat them, and so can other elite dudes, but line 'em up against average dudes and they'll paste them. And they are core so you could have a few of those big units, there'd still be disadvantages but that's the point of the game, everyone has pros and cons, except DoC of course

 

[Count Darvaleth]

, everyone has pros and cons, except DoC of course

I'm gonna feel stupid when I realise what it means mid-post, but what is DoC again?

 

[Anubis]

Ghouls on the other hand have WS3, which means when the enemy fails the fear test they will need 5's over 4's on skeletons. Ghouls in horde have the same number of attacks as spear skeletons as well and are T4. I fail to see how hitting on 3's is better for skeletons than ghouls, because they are the same strength o_o.

well, i also base my own judgement off the fact that pretty much every VC army will likely run with lore of light now... (as it pretty much bypasses our terrible WS/I problems)
with WS/I10 skellies fighting in a hoard, they will do better than the ghouls! plus, even if you don't go for lore of light or else speed of light gets dispelled, you've still got the added benifit of a 5+ save, full command & possible magic banner, which the ghouls won't have...

the ghouls poison attacks are also alot better when the ghouls hit on 4's with a re-roll missed to-hits spell placed on them. (thus, why fear is now worse for ghouls in a sense, since i know i'd rather hit a bit less, but poison alot more to avoid flubbing my to-wound rolls!)

It's sad that i feel I need to remove my beloved skeletons from my list, as I am not a big fan of ghouls. Ghouls will kill more so I plan on running 2 blocks of 25. I will also be testing out a block of 50 Zombies :zombie:, as a psychological weapon, my brother was in horror of the idea (WoC player). Zombies have a better raising power (D6+4), which means 1/2 rank minimum or full rank maximum.

100 zombies would be cool to see!

still, considering that ghouls are also cheaper to field, this i think also lends to them becoming the better out-ranking unit. they'll get more ranks cheaper than the skellies since you don't have any command beyond a ghast to sink pts into...

cheers!

 

[Forgotten Heretic]

, everyone has pros and cons, except DoC of course

I'm gonna feel stupid when I realise what it means mid-post, but what is DoC again?

DoC is short for Daemons of Chaos

 

[Ridarsin]

...

well, i also base my own judgement off the fact that pretty much every VC army will likely run with lore of light now... (as it pretty much bypasses our terrible WS/I problems)
with WS/I10 skellies fighting in a hoard, they will do better than the ghouls! plus, even if you don't go for lore of light or else speed of light gets dispelled, you've still got the added benifit of a 5+ save, full command & possible magic banner, which the ghouls won't have...

the ghouls poison attacks are also alot better when the ghouls hit on 4's with a re-roll missed to-hits spell placed on them. (thus, why fear is now worse for ghouls in a sense, since i know i'd rather hit a bit less, but poison alot more to avoid flubbing my to-wound rolls!)

...

100 zombies would be cool to see!

still, considering that ghouls are also cheaper to field, this i think also lends to them becoming the better out-ranking unit. they'll get more ranks cheaper than the skellies since you don't have any command beyond a ghast to sink pts into...

cheers!

Ok, I see what you mean. Every vampire taking lore of light seems...odd. I'm going to wait and see what they do to the Lore of the Vampire before guessing about Lores. WS10/I10 that is impressive.

 

[Count Darvaleth]

^^^ Lol Epic double-post ^^^


Also, thanks for the clear-up on DoC. And yes, they have no downsides!

 

[Pietr Von Carstein]

I'm going to wait and see what they do to the Lore of the Vampire before guessing about Lores.

Very little , if anything will be done to the lore . They will only change or remove obsolete rules and clarify how the new rules effect existing ones .

 

[TheZombieSquig]

Fingers crossed for Gaze of Nagash getting a boost option like Fireball.

 

[Skarsnik the Lord]

Skellies, as always.

I wouldn't use them with spears. Yeah, they can fight from three ranks with them (I'm not keen on Horde), but is it really worth of it? 1 point per model to get an extra rank fighting. So, five Str 3 hits more, maybe with Ws7. This sounds nice of course, 16 Ws7 Str 3 hits, but I still wouldn't use them, because...

- the price. It's not very much in the end, but it's still one disadvantage.
- you don't have 6+ ward save anymore.
- this will be the personal disadvantage, but I don't have models with spears!

In the 7. edition Skellies were taken because of many combat resolution points, they worked very well as anvils. So, what's the difference in the 8. edition? They're still same Skellies as before, with bad stat line, option to take Warbanner etc. In the 7. edition they were almost as good (or bad ) fighters as in 8. edition, except they fought only from two ranks (with spears).

So, 8. edition gave us an extra fighting rank, nothing more which improves Skellies' fighting. So I'd definitely use Skellies, but with shields. 6+ ward save for the win, it's always nice addition to combat reso unit. They're made because of CR, not because of their awesome fighting abilities.